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Post by Welshies222 on Mar 14, 2012 0:41:55 GMT
OP, you can't possibly school properly in 10 - 15 minutes! It takes at least 15 minutes for a horse to warm up properly, and you shouldn't canter before then  . I am sorry but I watched a program on telly the other day about Carl Hester (top dressage rider) and he said he only works his horses 10 minutes a time and in those 10 minutes he walks trots canters and all the dressage movements that he needs to train. This obviously works looking at his horses and achievements. |
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Post by mandmfan on Mar 14, 2012 3:50:56 GMT
What is wrong with waiting 20 minutes? Why do you expect your pony to go on the bit immediately? My mare is a native and it takes a good 20 minutes of warming up (transitions, lateral work, canter on a loose rein etc) before she works through properly and is in self-carriage. If I entered the school and just pulled on the reins, yes she would tuck her head in but I know she wouldn't be working correctly. Our other pony enters the school and drops down immediately with the slightest of contact but actually if you watch him he is not working through from his back end and again it takes about a good 10-15 minutes of warming up to achieve this. But the warming up is very worthwhile and once you get the self-carriage and the feeling that the motor is coming from the back end you can then go on to do some constructive schooling.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 14, 2012 7:39:51 GMT
Horses and riders vary and each combination must find what works for them. I didn't see the programme but he didn't mean "10 mins actual new schooling work after warming up" did he? I'm sure 10 mins riding a day isn't going to keep a dressage horse doing advanced movements fit enough to do them!
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Post by mandmfan on Mar 14, 2012 8:23:40 GMT
I think what I was trying to say in a roundabout way is that an athlete/dancer/sportsperson etc wouldn't expect to come out and perform at a good level without a thorough warm up so why would one expect a horse to do so?
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Post by Welshies222 on Mar 14, 2012 20:02:31 GMT
Sarah; he said he doesnt think they need anymore work than 10 minutes because he gets out of them what he needs.
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Post by watchbank on Mar 14, 2012 20:18:03 GMT
Jesus, i didnt want a major conflict from a simple question - have you heard your selves? Blimey...
Anyway back on the topic..
Having worked FULL TIME finshing at 5.30pm on a winter night, by 4 its pitch black hence the reason why i could only get 10-15 minutes in before we were working in the dark.. however now since its lighter til later and i am no longer working then hey hey i have more time to work with her. You will find alot of top dressage horses are only worked for 15 minutes at a time, and just for the record when we enter the paddock i work from she instantly starts to show off and head comes in, the question i asked was how to keep her head in when she does pull it in naturally, she often decides shes not concentrating anymore and out comes the giraffe head.
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Post by network on Mar 15, 2012 9:12:40 GMT
Jesus, i didnt want a major conflict from a simple question - have you heard your selves? Blimey... Anyway back on the topic.. Having worked FULL TIME finshing at 5.30pm on a winter night, by 4 its pitch black hence the reason why i could only get 10-15 minutes in before we were working in the dark.. however now since its lighter til later and i am no longer working then hey hey i have more time to work with her. You will find alot of top dressage horses are only worked for 15 minutes at a time, and just for the record when we enter the paddock i work from she instantly starts to show off and head comes in, the question i asked was how to keep her head in when she does pull it in naturally, she often decides shes not concentrating anymore and out comes the giraffe head. I struggle with my D Mare too, so know where your coming from, plus the winter is hard due to the reasons you mention, this winter for the first time I gave her 4 months off and it has done her the world of good, and me the world of good - I dont feel pressurised to ride for a quick 10 - 15 mins, getting frustrated with her because she wont do what I expect and therefore causing the issue to be worse. I have now been bringing her back into work for 4 weeks and the difference is amazing, I have more time and therefore dont feel as rushed to get results, so we are both more relaxed. Good luck  |
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Post by sageandonion on Mar 15, 2012 9:55:26 GMT
OP, you can't possibly school properly in 10 - 15 minutes! It takes at least 15 minutes for a horse to warm up properly, and you shouldn't canter before then . I am sorry but I watched a program on telly the other day about Carl Hester (top dressage rider) and he said he only works his horses 10 minutes a time and in those 10 minutes he walks trots canters and all the dressage movements that he needs to train. This obviously works looking at his horses and achievements. Sadly us mere mortals do not have the exquisite, purpose bred, highly trained athletes in our stable that Carl has. Neither do we have his knowledge, balance, feel and everything else he was born with and has had nutured. Not to speak of the perfect arena surface, physios, grooming etc. etc. etc. I regret we cannot replicate Carl's regime. |
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Post by vikki85 on Mar 15, 2012 11:28:19 GMT
I am sorry but I watched a program on telly the other day about Carl Hester (top dressage rider) and he said he only works his horses 10 minutes a time and in those 10 minutes he walks trots canters and all the dressage movements that he needs to train. This obviously works looking at his horses and achievements. Sadly us mere mortals do not have the exquisite, purpose bred, highly trained athletes in our stable that Carl has. Neither do we have his knowledge, balance, feel and everything else he was born with and has had nutured. Not to speak of the perfect arena surface, physios, grooming etc. etc. etc. I regret we cannot replicate Carl's regime. Completely agree with sageandonion on this point! watchbank, if she's just bringing her head up due to being easily distracted, perhaps putting some different and unexpected transitions and exercises into your schooling regime might help - if she has more to concentrate on then she (hopefully) won't be as inclined to lift her head up and look around. My mare also does this from time to time, and I'm pretty sure half the time she's just trying to get out of doing harder work to be honest! Evasiveness comes in so many ways depending on the horse: rushing, laziness, being easily distracted to name a few. It could also be that she physically finds it hard to maintain an outline for any length of time at the moment - a lot of horses do need frequent breaks until they build up the necessary muscle tone, etc, to go in an outline all the time. Obviously I don't know you or your mare or your schooling regime and level of training so this theory could be completely off the mark, please don't be offended if it is, just adding this as what you've described above also fits this scenario |
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Post by watchbank on Mar 15, 2012 15:05:36 GMT
Jesus, i didnt want a major conflict from a simple question - have you heard your selves? Blimey... Anyway back on the topic.. Having worked FULL TIME finshing at 5.30pm on a winter night, by 4 its pitch black hence the reason why i could only get 10-15 minutes in before we were working in the dark.. however now since its lighter til later and i am no longer working then hey hey i have more time to work with her. You will find alot of top dressage horses are only worked for 15 minutes at a time, and just for the record when we enter the paddock i work from she instantly starts to show off and head comes in, the question i asked was how to keep her head in when she does pull it in naturally, she often decides shes not concentrating anymore and out comes the giraffe head. I struggle with my D Mare too, so know where your coming from, plus the winter is hard due to the reasons you mention, this winter for the first time I gave her 4 months off and it has done her the world of good, and me the world of good - I dont feel pressurised to ride for a quick 10 - 15 mins, getting frustrated with her because she wont do what I expect and therefore causing the issue to be worse. I have now been bringing her back into work for 4 weeks and the difference is amazing, I have more time and therefore dont feel as rushed to get results, so we are both more relaxed. Good luck What you have just said is exactly what its like, i didnt have her in full time excercise from when i purchased her but acctuly just started too properly get her going now with the spring approaching we have more oppurtunity to do it! Good luck to you too!! ;D ;D |
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Post by jadey01 on Apr 3, 2012 1:05:27 GMT
you should not be pulling her head in merly pushing her into contact establising balance if she isnt comfy or balanced enough she may well not want to hold herself ,it takes alot of time walk circle loops etc help my youngsters getthe idea trot is little harder for them,but remeber never work your horse for a full half hourin same outline, how would we feel if somebody held our arm up for that length in same postition? allow them to regualry stretch down to floor bring the outline up and slightly lower streching the neck and back,i reward a good outline or small bit of work with a long stretch in hour session mine will only ever be asked for limited time always being allowed breaks.after all a dressage test only lasts for 4 minuits.if shes fighting i find i sometime have to relax my rein and gentaly ask lightly in hands if your heavy on them they will fight and it wont be a nice supple outline either tehy look tense.good luck though x
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Post by shellywell on Apr 8, 2012 15:06:14 GMT
Natives tend to be thick set through the jowl and the gullet thus preventing them PHYSICALLY to actually be able to work in TRUE self carriage as they are unable to flex correctly through the jaw.
This is NOT the same as working in an outline, a native is as capable as woking in an outline as the next horse. I understand what S&O is saying, natives find it harder to achieve "correct" work. Our natives haven't spent the last 30 years being bred for a set performance, a performance that has to meet certain strict national criteria. Our natives have been bred for type, and colour, and for traits desired by the breeders.
This detracts from the main post, which has alot of very helpful replies....
- if your horse is willing to work in an outline and come round after 20 minutes of working in, then great, keep going, she will get better. But all mine work in an outline, that doesn't mean I expect them to do it straight away or all the time.
Regarding the mare debate - Remember -
One tells a gelding, asks a mare and discusses it with a stallion.......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 15:32:57 GMT
What sort of bit are you trying to get her to work with? Maybe you need to change it?
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Apr 8, 2012 15:40:02 GMT
I do find that a very sweeping statement shellywell, and not true. Of course, like all breeds, some may be too thick through the throat to be able to flex easily, but there are plenty that are fine through the throat and perfectly capable of working in a correct outline. It is one of my most important criteria in choosing breeding stock as it is so vital for ridden horses - my Welsh Ds have been bred to ride for 30 years, as well as conforming to the official breed description.
I don't understand your next paragraph though - surely working in a correct outline is the same thing as working in self-carriage? it is in my book. I found the following definitions in one of my books:- "Self-carriage is seen when the horse holds himself in good balance without support from the reins" and "Outline is the shape of the horse's body along his topline from his nose to his tail. Attention to outline tends to lead to too much concentration on head position rather than on how the horse is using his body; look instead at his loins, his rump and where his back feet land." When ridden, the horse can only be self carriage ie in balance when he has learned to take more weight on the hindquarters, by in going in a correct outline. Or, as daughter's dressage trainer puts it, has moved from front wheel drive to 4 wheel drive and then to rear wheel drive. Only then can he raise the shoulders and come fully into balance carrying a rider.
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Post by hs on Apr 9, 2012 22:19:47 GMT
S&O is right natives are thicker in the jowl than more traditional dressage horses, and this makes is harder for them to go into an outline than a traditional dressage horse like a warmblood but not impossible.
As for Carl H he may be only on the horse for 10 minutes but it may have been warmed up for him already by going on the horsewalker or been ridden in or lunged by a groom before he gets on! I am sure he does not just get his horse out of his stable and start trotting and cantering it without warming it up properly.
I would suggest the OP gets a dressage instructor to come and invaluate your horse and see what they say as it is hard to know what to advice without seeing you in both in action.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Apr 10, 2012 5:46:38 GMT
I don't think S&O said in what way she considered them thicker, and I dispute that very sweeping statement as I said above!
Native ponies of various breeds, Welsh and NF come to mind, are the basis for the Continental WB ponies now imported back here as sport ponies.
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Post by vikki85 on Apr 10, 2012 9:56:36 GMT
Self-carriage and a correct outline should be one and the same. A horse may look like it's in a correct outline, i.e. head is where it should be, but is actually being carried by the rider (if the rider let go of the reins the horse would fall flat on it's face).
Self-carriage/correct outline is when a horse is carrying itself. I don't think this is particuarly difficult for any native with decent conformation. It's not just about where their heads are, it's about the hind legs being engaged and carrying the body.
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Post by blacklegs on Apr 10, 2012 10:25:42 GMT
It doesn't matter what breeding/type/sex the horse is, without a rider giving clear instructions (and the horse understanding them) "schooling" for any length of time will not help.
I would suggest booking a few lessons with a good instructor - I tried loads of different people without success and eventually found one who helped me to find the "right buttons" for a particularly difficult arab - we went on to win loads of dressage competitions, including several championships, but he was a very difficult horse to train who did not respond to "normal aids" however much we tried to train him!! lol x This instructor worked with my horse and me, not just what the book said, but looked outside of the box for the answers we needed and after years of not progressing, we quickly improved. BUT he hated working in the school.
Most of my schooling is done out hacking - even now, have a new horse who at 13 has only been used for trekking/hacking and is very "kick to go, pull to stop". I got him to give me my confidence back after not riding for a year - he's great but I do miss that 'schooled feeling'.
He is very poor, and weak, and appears to have what my vets suspect arthritis of the sacroiliac joint - therefore I've been advised NOT to work him in the school yet, but to walk him, up to the bridle, (which doesn't mean in an outline, but not to slop along) to gain fitness and muscle up.
When we get onto little lanes or tracks I bend him left and right round the inside leg - push him across with a bit of leg yeilding etc and immediately his head drops looking for that desired contact as his hind leg comes further under him - he cannot maintain it - he has no muscle, but each time I ride (I cannot ride every day), he improves.
He is still finding his surroundings new and exciting, and so is enjoying his rides rather than getting sour in the school, and is becoming more responsive little by little, so it's like I'm improving his way of going without him even realising it!
Too much emphasis is placed on "getting on the bit" and a little more understanding needed about the horse taking more weight on the hind quarters and propelling themselves forward into "an outline" which in time, they are strong enough to maintain for longer and longer periods, but no horse should ever be asked to continually work without regular breaks and stretches.
Good luck and I hope you too can find an instructor who is right for both you and your horse!
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Post by vikki85 on Apr 10, 2012 11:28:49 GMT
Too much emphasis is placed on "getting on the bit" and a little more understanding needed about the horse taking more weight on the hind quarters and propelling themselves forward into "an outline" which in time, they are strong enough to maintain for longer and longer periods, but no horse should ever be asked to continually work without regular breaks and stretches Couldn't agree more with this entire paragraph! |
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