Getting her on the bit more

[watchbank]

My mare often wont go on the bit until i have worked her in for 20 mins or so then she brings her head in but ive noticed when i try to pull her head in she just fights me until shes sick of fighting and then gives in. Really i want her to understand that when i ride her shes got to be 'on the bit' at all times. We only ride for a few hours a week so its not a big ask. Any ideas or help on how i can improve her?

[kayleigh]

Really you need to be riding more than "just a few hours a week" there are no quick fixes to replace thorough and consistent schooling. You also don't need to be "pulling her head in" a true outline comes from the horse working through it's back thoroughly then the head will lower naturally, only when you're horse can work long and low can you start taking up a contact and shortening her frame. Little by little is the only way to achieve it.

[LucyHebditch]

Agree with above! You have to imagine your horse being a sprinter... They wouldn't come straight out and do 100m in 10 seconds...
They would warm up first. Your horse needs to do the same! So lots of flexing and stretching as low as you can get her.
It would be very uncomfortable for her to go straight into an outline as soon as you get on board

[busybee93]

You need to work her in first she will not automatically go on the bit! On the bit means that the horse is sitting perfectly between the leg and the hand, relaxed through the back and working from behind meaning the horse is using her back end properly to propel her forwards tbh if you are trying to pull her head in as soon as you get on then you have a very tolerant horse as mine would launch me off in a split second!

[ilovebuckroox]

I have one who does this (or used to), you still have to ride him on a loose rein, otherwise his head shoots up. Just keep doing what your doing, looser rein to start. The more she works the better she will get, and remember she will be using different muscles too. The one I ride used to go like this- 20min nose in the air (gradually came down), 5 minutes really good work, then 10 minutes where he would be too tired and would be very heavy on my hands (with still a looseish rein). But now its more like 5 minutes head in the air, 15 really good work, and 5 minutes tired. (It also depends on the mood too!) He isn't being worked much now, but he is still kept ticking over (aprox. 5 times a week, 25min each time). So I would say you do need to work her at least 4 times a week (if possible, if not shorter and more lessons) to be able to notice the difference. It does vary, of course, per each horse so you will have to find what suits her. I ride mine in a bubble bit/3 ring gag on the 2nd ring, as he can be unpredictable (much better now), but I always had a very loose rein because I didn't want all of the poll pressure. Many will be thinking I'm an idiot for doing that, but that was the only bit (if he went uncontrolable) I could stop him in, without having to put too much pressure on his mouth which he does not like- so he would end up with his head even further in the air whilst panicking. I do now ride him in a loose ring snaffle, but I still ride him the 3 ring gag too and he is pretty much the same horse (but obviously I have more control in the gag, which is why/when I use it) as I have the same amount of pressure on the bit & his mouth (I use a looser rein with the gag).

[speedysally]

if she's lifting her head up aswell, like really bad why don't you try her with a martingale on?? it might help but my pony has the same issue fighting the bit...if she's not strong to manage, why don't you try a bitless bridle? it just applys pressure to the nose rather than the mouth and then she's nothing to fight with!

[sarahp]

After picking up on a suggestion from an old high listed dressage judge I wrote for years ago, I always used to start riding in by walking, first not asking her to go in an outline at all but doing lots of turns and transitions, and gradually asking for more collection as time went on, then going into trot. When schooling, you can't expect the pony to go in an outline all the time, periods of stretching on a long rein to stretch the back muscles are important, and act as a reward for working properly too.

I haven't gone into correct outlines as fadingwoodlivery and busybee93 have already done that between them.

[GinaGeo]

No horse will work correctly through having their "head pulled in". A horse works correctly, through their back, being on the bit, actually comes from the hindquarters. The horse has to sit down on his hindquarters and lift the shoulder and lift into the contact. The horse will first have to learn to soften through his back, swing from behind and will work "long and low" in a more relaxed frame. When a horse it working correctly it should be likened to riding with cotton for reins. If you pull the cotton will snap.

All horse's require warming up, and stretching before they work. Like lrh123 said, you wouldn't just go and do a sprint with stretching an warming up first, it's the same for your mare.

I'd like to suggest you invest in a good Dressage instructor who can teach your and your mare to work together effectively. It will also take more than "a few hours a week" like another poster mentioned for her to have the required muscle to work correctly for prolonged periods of time.

If you were to do 200 sit-ups a couple of times a week without any stretching you'd kill! I know I did so once, I hurt for days after I've not done it since

[ilovebuckroox]

Feb 20, 2012 19:14:31 GMT sarahp said:

After picking up on a suggestion from an old high listed dressage judge I wrote for years ago, I always used to start riding in by walking, first not asking her to go in an outline at all but doing lots of turns and transitions, and gradually asking for more collection as time went on, then going into trot.

This is what I do with both of 'mine' (one I ride & one of my own), definately works so can highly recomend!
However, my horse you could (I don't though) hold him in a shape and make him go in an 'outline' (not a correct one of course) and he would do it. But then I am carrying him, and he wouldn't be working correctly. The opposite of what is wanted. However the one I ride, there is no way you could get hold of him and just 'ride', even after doing the mentioned above, he'd end up going over backwards. When mine was not work I got into a habit of having looser reins (ask S&O, she told me off haha!) as I was just working him, so watch out you don't get into that habit! It is very hard to get out of, as I have found out.

[snowflake]

Wrote a reply & the Internet went down!

Has she just got into work recently? She needs to get fit & into a routine. If she isn't being ridden consistently, she might be unsure of what's being asked. The more she's ridden the quicker she will come on the bit. Remember it takes TWO TO PULL. Push her through it, have a loose contact & use your legs & get her back end moving. If you pull on the reins she'll pull back. If you have a loose contact she cannot pull back. (Not loose as in slack, but not a hard, stiff contact)

Also try some pole work, which will help her concentrate.
Plus I find circle work invaluable. Start your schooling on a 20m circle. If she starts pulling, & not bending put her on a smaller circle - around a 10m circle. They have to bend & be supple to get around the circle! This should help with her becoming better in her schooling.

[missydp]

I have a beautiful talented sec c who is far more experienced than me!!!!! She is at a show yard and I am lucky enough to have lessons twice a week. We always warm up and it does take about 15-20 min to get her nicely on the bit .... Ali always encourages me to gently wiggle my fingers one side at a time to keep the contact and make sure she is listening and correctly on the bit. It works really nicely.

[sageandonion]

I take it this is your native and a mare? Well my dear I promise you it is hard work and frustrating and involves mind games as well as the physical stuff. That being because a native isn't bred to do dressage so physically requires more suppling and fitness and will never actually round in the way a warmblood can because they simply are not built that way. You also have a mare so we have to have quite a conversation about the best way to do things because mares do have their own views on the subject. You have to be persuasive but firm and absolutely 100% consistent.

So, being persuasive involves making sure she is super doper fit and doing lots of lateral and suppling (which involves hacking and jumping too if you can. It also means you must make sure you are offering a correct and kind contact and giving at precisely the correct moment. You will need your instructor to be happy that you are doing this and you very often need to check your shoulders. The hand may be kind, but the shoulders may be stiff and tight. Being firm does not involve strong hands or punishing, but more a gentle 'yes we are going to make progress' and not giving up and never losing your patience. A looser rein is an idea to start, but make sure it is a useful loose rein, your pony should be stretching, reaching, swinging. Imagine a free walk on a long rein, it is a dressage movement and to be performed, not just slopping along. Insist on that walk, maybe ride a walk/trot test in walk so you have your shapes which should be perfect even on a loose rein. Ponies that have had their head pulled in very rarely perform a good free walk or any decent walk at all for that matter.

May I recommend a bit to you. The KK WH snaffle I find is really good and dressage legal.

We must accept that we will probably never have one of those naturally loose warmblood athletes that simply drop the moment we get on, they were probably doing that in the womb. But we have chosen our natives for all their different attributes and so we have to work somewhat harder on certain things.

And modified to say that I am having exactly the same things with my mare and look forward to the Spring because the arguments are going to get worse before they get better.

[vikki85]

Agree with most of the above comments. Bit puzzled by sageandonions response regarding natives though... I agree that warmbloods are bred for dressage and have attritubes natives don't, but we're not exactly talking Grand Prix dressage here, just basic, good schooling. Surely any native with good confirmation and good schooling can be brilliant at dressage and schooled into a proper outline in a reasonable amount of time?

[sageandonion]

As I have puzzled you I shall explain further. I actually said natives have other attributes. Warmbloods specifically bred for dressage have everything in the corrrect place to begin with from front to back in the same way tbs find it easier to race. Natives are a little thicker and that is a fact whether we like it or not. It is no critisism of natives whatsoever. Unless we understand and appreciate the differences in conformation and train and school accordingly, we will struggle to train them correctly.

Basic schooling requires a basic understanding of your pony's natural way of going and there are loads of good books out there if you are still confused.

My comments regarding the way of going of natives, specifically to explain that they tend to need more suppling and fitness than some other breeds was for the OP to understand why I was making those suggestions. I also ride and train a very similar pony. Your suggestions for training were?

[sarahp]

So far I'm with vikki85 on this one. Lower level dressage is all about going correctly and obediently which any decently conformed animal should be not only able to do, but should be schooled to do for its rider's safety and pleasure.

In what sense thicker S&O? If you mean mentally, I'd back any native against a WB any day for intelligence! If not, where thicker exactly that makes the difference? And by the way there has been a Welsh D related to mine doing Grand Prix in the US, probably dead of old age by now, and several have been in our International pony teams over here. I would happily concede they don't have the same elasticity as a good WB though.

[sageandonion]

Do you know, I think we ought to make our suggestions to the original poster and she can perhaps choose what she thinks will work for her and her mare rather than having to justify our suggestions to other people who may not be experiencing this particular challenge at this particular time.

I would never suggest any animal is thick mentally.

[vikki85]

Didn't mean to offend sageandonion, I am only speaking from experience as I have a welsh cob mare that is happily schooled to elementary level dressage and historically has done much better competitively than many horses who are typically of 'dressagey' confirmation and type.

I concede your point that the method of training may be slightly different for natives and heavy cobs when it gets to a certain level, however I think that basic schooling methods are pretty much the same for any horse or pony with decent conformation.

Suggestion to the OP as requested, with regular and correct schooling your mare will eventually be able to hold the correct outline for longer and longer periods of time. At the moment she may just not have the correct muscles to hold herself in the correct position for very long. When she does get it right, lots of praise, and give her frequent breaks using free walk on a long rein. As other people have said, you need to allow her to warm up at the beginning of a schooling session before asking her to come into an outline. I usually start by waking for ten mins or so at free walk, but a good purposeful walk. I then have a trot round on both reins but without asking for an outline. I then usually drop back into walk and do some lateral work such as shoulder-in and renvers in walk. You'll find once the hind legs become engaged, she'll eventually drop into an outline of hero wn accord. Also, lots and lots of transitions. Walk to halt to begin with, then walk-trot-walk. Only walk for about four or five strides before asking for trot again. Try to do these sort of exercises more regularly and you'll notice a difference. Walk to canter is good too if she is balanced enough and goes off your leg easily.
Getting a decent instructor will help, who can teach you lateral work etc (If you don't already knww how to do it)

There is an excellent book for some inspiration called 'Cobs Can' by Omar Rabia who has an exceptionally well-trained cob called Ketchup, the book is also aimed native owners and explains what can be achieved with your native or cob and includes schooling methods

Modified to add link to pictures of Ketchup with Omar - she is a heavy cob and a mare and look what can be achieved! - www.cobs-can.co.uk/about_us.htm

[LEC]

I havent read the above comments so im not sure if this has already been said so i apologise if it has,
First your horse needs to be stepping through from behind and be staight between both hands and legs, forget about the shape for a while. Once he/she is doing both of those things easily then you can start asking for a contact but not by fighting, you need to bend and flex the whole body and get it feeling very supple and he/she will find the rein themselves. This way you get a longer and more natural looking shape instead of looking like you have pulled the neck in and they go tense and hollow.
It is a long process but i promise you will get there in the end. If you need help maybe lessons would benefit you both.

I would also try to hack a couple of times a week, very good for getting horses straight and building up muscles which are vital for schooling.
There is no need to school everyday, your horse will switch off and not want to learn, id say 3 or 4 times a week is plenty.
Good luck!
xx

[sarahp]

The OP had already had my suggestions, much in line with most of the rest on here.

And I would very much like to know where (as I asked) natives are "thicker". I am trying to "understand and appreciate the differences in conformation", and without more explanation I don't. I don't think that's unreasonable, and it's nothing to do with your specific suggestions but general remarks.

[delfachhighwayman]

To me this rings of a classic case where your horse lacks confidence as she does not have the balance and suppleness to hold herself so starts off tense.

So my suggestions are:

1) Accept now that for the moment, for the first 20 mins she will be tense and will not work through her back

2) work on suppleness of the circle asking her to bend from the leg both ways

3) I always find my boy starts to supple and concentrate on serpentines

4) If she is tense through a tramsition, and you meet resistance, go down a pace and work up the transisitons.

Once she gets more confident, she will supple quicker relax.

[hjshill]

This may be a little controversial, but may i suggest that you have some lessons with your mare with a good instructor so that you are both clear about what is being asked.

[hjshill]

Some horses are a little more mentally challenged ( thicker) than others so they don't learn as quickly........age and breed also to be considered.

[adam321pink]

i definitely agree some horses are thicker than others.. however i dont necessarily agree that this makes them 'go' worse.. often the more mentally challenged are easier to ride and school... yes brighter horses 'learn' quicker but this doesnt always make them easier to train!

in the case of this post i dont believe 'thickness' is the issue.. and i dont think 20 minutes is too unreasonable a time scale for your horse to warm up and begin to work correctly... which i assume she does as you say its just the first 20 mins. also you have to look at things like her age, temperament and your own riding ability... does she go the same for everyone or just you? if she goes sweetly for someone else ask them to give you a hand to find her 'feel'.

... i dont ride my horse for much more than 20mins (in the school) they just get bored and go sour. if she was mine i would work on the lines of 10 mins walking, bending, stretching, standing to a good contact and good walk transitions then once she gets the idea of that i would do a further 10 mins doing the same in trot and maybe a little canter on each rein if the trot went well... roughly 30 minutes.

for me schooling should be about learning something so once she gets it call it a day... hopefully each day she will get it a bit quicker and then more time can be spent on perfecting things without switching her off... which particularly if she is an awkward monkey (or potentially quite bright) could happen very quickly... nobody likes to get things wrong including horses.. imagine someone going over something for a hour constantly telling you your doing it wrong.. id stick my nose in the air as well! ;-)

till she understood the basis aids was able to move freely of my leg, work to a consistent contact (not necessarily in a 'shape') and go in a straight line then i wouldnt move on to anything more complicated. you will probably find that something in all that basic work is a miss and once that is sorted she will naturally soften and go in a 'shape' which is how you want it.

[watchbank]

Shes certainly not thick or mentally challeged, i think out of all the horses ive owned shes the cleverist she picks up very quickly. We rode today and shes been alot better - the more often i work her the more she learns. I dont tire her out she has 10-15 mins of schooling a day and then we go back in. thanks for your replies

[flo1]

OP, you can't possibly school properly in 10 - 15 minutes!
It takes at least 15 minutes for a horse to warm up properly, and you shouldn't canter before then .
My instructor used to say 'get the back end working properly and the front end will sort itself out'
Meaning that the hindquarters need to engage properly for a horse to work in a correct outline.
The best way to achieve this is by doing lots of walk to trot, trot to walk transitions along with changes of direction. It won't happen overnight but stick with it and you'll get there
It's all basic stuff that anyone can do, you can even do it out hacking, doesn't matter what breed of horse you're riding either. I know several Sec D's that can 'out dressage' most warmbloods I've seen

[kirtonian]

Having always had warmbloods and TB X I have recently changed to Highlands, and I think what s and O is getting at is that some natives are thicker set, IE stocky in build....not mentally thick which they most certainly are NOT!! My little Highland learnt leg yeilding as quickly as any blood horse I have ever backed and schooled.
My feeling with schooling a native, certainly the heavier types is that they need to be physically fairly fit before doing too much schooling, I am not saying I didn't back in school and do a few circles to get steering etc before venturing out onto our busy roads....but once that was established I spent several months almost entirely doing gentle hacking, and only when she was 4 1/2-5 I started to school her in the menage, then @ 30 mins twice a week, always with plenty of warm-up in walk, but don't forget you can also slip in a lot of schooling on roads, hardly fair to expect horses to slop along down the road, then expect them to be totally different in the school.

PS worring about outline is probably a negative thing...think about pony working forward actively from leg into a soft contact, being straight down long sides and getting slight inside bend on corners then it will work from behind and carry itself and the "outline" will come naturally

[sarahp]

S & O declined to explain her point, but the OP has a Welsh D, and unlike Highlands and the other heavy breeds they are very active and athletic. Some lines tend to have a good trot only and indifferent other paces, but there are lines with three good paces which can be very good at dressage.

I'm all for schooling out hacking, I find the intelligent natives learn better that way and can get bored in a school leading to acting up. Much easier to teach leg yielding backwards and forwards across a path 6' wide than in a wide open school! Surely any breed should be fittened by hacking before doing any intensive schooling anyway, once safe and with brakes and steering esablished?

[kirtonian]

Yep...quite agree any horse should be fittend before lots of schooling done, but in my experience natives take a rather long time before they are "fit enough" to do much schooling!! I don't have much experience of Welshies, although a friend of mine often buys a welsh without much knee action specially for dressage and does VERY well...funny when they are all trimmed up and plaited when a posh person comes over and asks how they are bred, expecting some posh foreign breeding...pic on their face when she tells them its a welsh is priceless!!LOL

[sarahp]

Not trying to divert the thread but I think they way they are shown IH these days does them no PR favours with the general riding public.

[network]

I have a welsh section D mare, who is 21 years old, she was never well schooled when I got her as a 10 year old and have struggled for many years trying to get her to work in a correct outline. I have had physio's out to ensure that her back and neck are ok etc. After giving her four months off over the winter I started bringing her back into work at the beginning of February and started the battle again however this time I am now having lessons once a week with her, at this stage all we are doing is walking and trotting, lots of transition work and pole work to encourage working from behind, my instructor also has me working on small circles and small figure of eights changing the bend around my legs, it is all working, we have a long way to go but yesterday for the first time she really did start to soften in my hands and we even had some foaming of the mouth Like others have said she is also a mare, therefore the struggle seems to be twice as bad because the minute I put her under any type of pressure she just locks her neck and argues with me, sometimes I literally have to throw the reins at her so that she relaxes and then start again