Judges placing naughty ponies

[CRNativePonies]

Recently went to a show and competed in hand, but the horse that was placed 1st was very naughty and reared up on the go around! In my opinion in hand should be horses way of going, conformation and MANENRS (with the exception of yearling/youngstock classes) My class wasn't the only one were naughty ponies were placed, in my eyes for a pony to rear up is incredibly dangerous and should be sent out? Am i the only one that believes manners matter?

[sarahp]

Manners aren't normally regarded as as important as in a ridden class, as long as it isn't so bad as to be dangerous, obviously I wasn't there so can't comment on one class. Frequently they are youngstock and may not have been to a show before so there is a little leeway, and maybe it was behind the judge's back so he/she didn't see it anyway, always possible. I reckon it varies with the breed too.

[fanfarefan]

dont get me started on this one ,,,,,i myself (and horse ) have been and quite rightly so put down a place for bad manners , now im not talking rearing or bucking , but a bit of fidgeting , and more often than not my old mare would do her individual trot up with her ears back , nothing i could do about it , but was taken as being bad tempered , a decision i just had to accept , ,,,,,, but on the other hand a couple of seasons ago i did a coloured class with my mini , whose manners are impeccable , he was pulled in 3rd , which in most cases i would be happy with , as it was a very large class , ,,,,, 1st horse had a lump on its hock the size of a grapefruit , the 2nd was a 2 yr old ,that reared in the line , reared several times in front of the judge , and then wouldnt trot up ,,and reared up again when being given the rossette , ,,,,,, now i normally would just say that was how it is and the judges decision is final ,,,,,,,, but having had a few shows were manners were being completely over looked , i did the unforgiveable , and went and questioned the judge on his decision ,,,,,,,, he couldnt explain why he had overlooked the lump , nor why he allowed such bad manners , but that he liked the overall picture , ,,,,,,, now was i a bad looser or justified in asking ,,,, ?

[CRNativePonies]

yeah i can understand if a horse bucks or spooks, especially at this time of the year when horses are quite fresh but for a horse to rear up in hand is really dangerous and it should be sent out? The fact that this particular horse did it as it went past the judge makes it even worse? I remember being marked down for manners in an in hand class before because my pony wouldnt stand still :/ yet horses that are far more dangerous are being placed! I know its down to the judges decision but surely they should be setting an example for what is acceptable or not.

FanFareFan i think you had every right to ask why! I would have done the same to be honest. I wish i had asked the judge on sunday why she pulled me in 1st then dropped me to 2nd when 1) my pony was perfectly behaved 2) The horse she pulled in 1st had just reared up vertical. Some things can be excused but I think rearing is very dangerous ridden or in hand and should never be overlooked :/ But hey that's showing for you!

[fanfarefan]

what annoys me most is that the more that this happens the more people will think that it is acceptable ,whilst those of us who school and practice at home get penalised , for having horses with good manners , now im not saying mine are all perfect , and on sunday were taking out our 5yr old , who for various reasons hasnt been shown since early last season , and its his first time indoors , now whilst i hope he will be have , there are no guarantees , but if he is naughty i fully expect to be put down the line , and learn from it , and look forward to another day

[CRNativePonies]

Yeah I completly agree! Not every horse goes foot perfect, they're unpredictable so you can expect them to be fresh/spooky but judges should rewarding the well mannered horses rather than putting naughty ponies above them! Glad im not the only person that thinks that though

[todster]

i agree on good manners ,but on the other hand i was showing my 3yrd colt first time out early feb ,and he got rather noughty as i was pulled out for the judge and reared,might be him you seen,the judge forgave him after finding out he was a young colt , and was very mannerly after that, but she did say if he didnt settle after that he would be dropped .

[poop]

In hand is judged on type, conformation & movement if it is a breed class. It is not an equitation class. That said, it is bad manners to bring something dangerous and poorly trained into the ring. But just remember youngsters and breeding animals are not robots and some exhuberance can be expected as long as they are not a danger to others.

[CRNativePonies]

Yes im not dismissing that some animals may be naughty in hand but i think that a naughty pony shouldnt be placed above a well behaved pony surely? When my fell was a 2 year old colt i was sold on several occasions by judges that if he had behaved better he would have been placed higher. Im not saying its completly based on manners but surely if one horse it better behaved than another then it should be placed higher.

[sarahp]

I'm with poop on this one, it's not a manners class but for type, conformation and movement. The only other point is if the bad behaviour prevents the judge from being able to see the animal properly to assess it as they should, then it can't be counted as judged so maybe should be put down. If you can't see it you shouldn't judge it!

Manners should be of course of great importance in ridden classes.

[fanfarefan]

im sorry but i have to disagree , a hack is for the gentleman to ride through the park , and manners are of utmost importance , the riding horse for the lady to ride , manners again required , the hunter , ladies or gents must have manners to burn whilst standing on point , doing gates etc , riding ponies are only small versions of the above , and therefore whether ridden or in hand manners are very important , with a minor exception of youngstock ,

[sarahp]

We will have to agree to disagree then - of course I agree with you 100% for ridden classes as I've said. In hand classes are normally for breeding stock anyway - and yes I do agree that breeding stock is there to breed stuff to ride or drive, but you have made an exception for youngstock anyway, and adult breeding stock may well not have been broken so not had the amount of handling and experience that should have gone into a ridden. Manners are not necessarily the same as innate temperament, good or bad.

[fanfarefan]

once again i think we will lol !!! the pony i refered to previously was just out and out naughty , with an owner who seemed to think it was acceptible ,alot of judges are hot on manners in hand whilst others , seem to pass them by , which gives very inconsistant feed back to the more novice competitor, those who have been there done that should and would expect to be penalized for bad manners , unfortunately there seem to be no hard and fast rules , and the judges decision , rightly or wrongly , is final.

[catkin]

I do think there is a difference between manners in an in hand class and manners in the in hand section of a ridden class. Last year I watched a HOYs qualifer when a 128 sp actually stood on its hind legs twice in front of the judge with the child as they were about to run it up. I know there are two sections with two sets of marks and often two judges, but surely this isn't acceptable and somewhere it should have been penalised (it wasnt)? I do feel strongly about this in the junior classes. A bit of fidgeting is one thing, rearing and leaping around isn't acceptable in my book. I do agree that its entirely different in an in-hand class though

[fanfarefan]

sorry to dis agree again , but whats the difference between a horse misbehaving in and in hand class and the in hand section of a ridden class , ? in hand classes are usually youngstock and 4 yrs and over , now tell me is it right that a 10yr old in hand riding horse in can buck in its individual show and it be ok , but in a ridden class , on the in hand run up , it is penalised , at the end of the day both horses are for the same purpose , and a mature horse should behave, ----- manners in hand should be of more importance because the judge doesnt get to see what they are like ridden ,which really is the type of horse class they are entered for , i have done most over the past few years , and i still as a competitor and judge expect manners first and foremost , be it ridden , inhand , youngstock , or mature horse , its not alot to expect ,and i think that more emphasis on manners needs to be addressed

[mcw]

That's showing for you..

[fanfarefan]

well i was absolutely chuffed to bits with my two boys yesterday (son and pony ) first time out this year and first time indoors , he didnt bat an eyelid and behaved immpecably , BUT in his first class , Horse/pony of show type ( what a broad spectrum) pony was 5th , pleased no problem , judge explained he was more of shp type than riding type , by that i assume she meant riding pony ,again no problem ,appreciate the feed back , BUT why then did she place 3rd a pony that went right up twice , when potentially you are going to have a child sat onit , dont get me wrong you cant help it when a judge places you and your pony has been naughty , it is down to the judge ,YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF JUDGES PLACING NAUGHTY PONIES

[CRNativePonies]

Its the lack of consistancy that really gets to me. i have been penalized many times with my colt doing in hand classes because he was 'naughty' yet some judges will turn a blind eye to it. If it comes down to 2 ponies that are joint on points for conformation and movement, and 1 was naughty and was behaved very well then surely manners should matter and the well behaved horse be rewarded???

[fanfarefan]

you used to automatically know that if your horse/pony misbehaved that you would be penalised for it , but know it seems anything goes

[Sasha]

It drives me mad! I recently watched a show it was a ridden class and there was 3 stallions in it 2 behaved impeccably in the usual line up with the others stood very well , the third was frankly a very badly behaved bugger! It reared several times nearly squashed 2 of the smaller ponies in the class eventually had to be separated and stood yards away from the others, low and behold pulled in first! Unbelievable... Do good manners not count for nothing these days?

[canna]

I think you have to be careful with this one. Yes manners are very important, however, if youngsters are doped to give them an advantage of perceived 'quiet' nature, rather than being age appropriate, then this requires good observation from any judge.

[fanfarefan]

i actually think that if you give your horse/pony some natural calmer to help it settle and behave, you are being a responsible owner , nobody wants the animal next to them pratting about and unsettling their horse , and if they feel calm they will then hopefully go out the next time with a calmer attitude , BUT its not only youngsters that misbehave and get placed , its adult horses aswell who should know better, and whilst judges accept this behaviour in the ring then competitors are going to think its the norm and not make the effort to correct their animals prior to competeing . I have spent many hours trying to educate my animals over the years to behave in the ring only to have some ill mannered and badly handled horse come above us,as ive said before you cant help where the judge places you , SO COME ON JUDGES PLEASE BE MORE CONSISTANT

[nici]

My youngsters have been marked down when shown inhand for being too quiet, as I insist on good manners. They're not doped, have never had a calmer of any sort. However they are children's ponies, so I insist they behave at all times, for safety's sake.

We will not be showing our 2yo Welsh gelding at any serious shows, just a few locals for some mileage, as I refuse to expose him to the madness that can go on in Welsh classes.

[sarahp]

It seems to me entirely contradictory to be very hot on good manners and down on bad but fully prepared to instill good manners artificially by using a calmer.

I was trying to keep out of this one, but to answer an earlier point from fanfarefan - there is all the difference in the world between an in hand class and the in hand bit of a ridden class. In the latter, the horse or pony is adult, broken to saddle and supposedly schooled, so manners are vital. In the former, many are inexperienced youngstock or unbroken breeding stock - there is no requirement for anything in an in hand class to be broken to ride or drive - so as they are being judged on type, conformation and movement, more license can be allowed as to manners, providing of course they are not dangerous, in which case they should be removed from the ring. Handlers should be expected to be responsible with any that do get excited, eg standing them out behind the line instead of in it if they are fussing.

I remember an incident year ago when I was showing a D filly and in the same mixed sex and age youngstock class was a very hyper colt, which was pulled in immediately above me. The steward asked me to move and stand nearer to it as I had left plenty of room in between, and being tactful as it wasn't my filly that was misbehaving, I said to him "I think my filly is upsetting the colt" and stayed where I was. When we had all done our individuals, still with this colt leaping around like a mad thing, and the class had been judged, the steward said quietly to me when he could "I see what you mean" with a smile. This was before the classes got as manic as they are now nici but were really quite civilised!

[janeneilson]

Agree with not showing in hand at welsh shows. I qualified my 6 year old section A gelding for the Welsh National Championships in hand and my daughter qualified FR. He is normally very well mannered and stands perfectly still but the WNC just blew his brain. In the in hand class of 40, mainly mares and stallions, only 2 geldings! He reared the whole way around. Wouldn't stand still. Was very badly behaved but this behavior is acceptable in in hand welsh classes. The section D in hand was going on at the same time as the FR, banging of banners with sticks and shouting, so our pony was really naughty and unpredictable. Quite rightly we weren't placed.

[sarahp]

Section A showing is normally fine, it's the Cobs that can get a bit interesting.

Well done in qualifying your gelding and sorry you had a bad time at the show. Mind you, big shows can throw up all sorts of frighteners for riddens, from funfairs to motorbike displays to heavy horses in jangling harness. I particularly remember one where I had an in hand colt in a next door ring - there were army helicoptors hovering over the main ring with soldiers sliding down ropes out of them firing guns. Our judge very sensibly stopped our class until it had finished as all the ponies were going bananas.

[janeneilson]

yes totally agree as last time we showed out section A about 2 years ago at the 3 counties show in a HOYS FR qualifier the Royal Artillery decided to go around the outside of the arena as we were about to do our run up and then it proceeded to go in the main ring and fire 7 cannons off! Well this pony completed freaked out. The judge quite rightly stopped everyone and made the children dismount and parents to hold the ponies but ours never recovered. He was going quite nicely before but now was more like a stallion on speed! We've just accepted that this pony really can't handle the big occasions so no point in trying to qualify him as HOYs would have scared him to death. We've since broken him to drive and he's a complete natural.

[sarahp]

Some are fine, thrive on it and show off to their utmost and some can't hack it whatever you do.

[fanfarefan]

Nici , i commend you for having quite youngsters , and my point entirely that as potential childrens ponies you have done the work to make them safe ridden ponies in the future , Sarahp , you hit the nail on the head that if the animal is behaving in a dangerous manner that it should be asked to leave the ring , BUT judges just dont seem to do that anymore . i fully appreciate that young C's and D's can be alittle exuberant at times , and that they are by their very breed , big moving animals , but the trend to have them messing around on the end of a very long lead is just plain rude , and very annoying for other competitors (that last comment isnt pointed at you sarahp)

[sarahp]

That's OK, I didn't take it such because I don't show mine like that. We only do the odd foal show now with the D youngstock, we've taken to the BEF Futurities for performance youngstock instead. They get to strut their stuff loose in an indoor school in those, great fun! But only one at a time, I hasten to add.