At My Wits End !

[wildnative]

I'm really sorry. This IS long, but it's driving me insane
I've been having problems with a neighbour for quite a while now.
She lives in the flat below Mum and I, and is constantly shouting insults and verbal abuse directed at Mum and I, and our neighbour in the upstairs flat next door. (We are council tennants, and so is she. The neighbours next door, both top and bottom flats, own their flats).
She is also shouting threats that she is going to hit my dog .
I have been in contact with the council about this for over a year now.
My FIRST point of call was social services, because, wait for it..................THE WOMAN IS NEARLY 90 YEARS OLD !
Hearing her always banging on the walls and shouting in the early hours of the morning, I thought she maybe needed help. Thought she maybe wasn't coping with living on her own.
I had detailed her "behaviour" in my email to social services, and THEY forwarded my email to the antisocial behaviour team.
I had a visit last year from the head of the antisocial behaviour team. She spoke to the woman's family and her care team (she has a home help in twice a day Monday to Friday, but says she can manage on her own at weekends). She arranged a visit to the woman by a social worker AND her OWN GP. This was to check on her health and her care needs. They found nothing "wrong", other than that she appears to be obsessed with her neighbours.
Now, just to clarify things, she conducts herself in a normal manner when anyone is in to visit her. Knows everything about everything and everyone in the village, holds lengthy conversations in the same manner as you or I would. She appears to have a very good memory, both short and long term. Like I said, the conversations are as You and I would hold.
She has said lots of times that she hates us, and this goes back to the 70's and 80's as far as I can remember. My Gran lived here until she died 8 years ago, aged 98. This neighbour hated my Gran, who was a quiet woman who just put up with the insults for a very long time.
So, that's a little bit of background as I know that people automatically mention dementia. It happens every time I tell anyone, and they feel sorry for the woman. It hasn't started recently, but has been going on for decades. (She would have been around 50 when I was a toddler. I have always remember her as hating my Gran from when I was old enough to understand).
So, basically, since I have lived here with my Mum ( 7 years), this woman's behaviour has affected my life in a big way.
I used to work night shift. She knew I worked night shift, and all day every day she would slam doors, bang on the walls and come into the bedroom below mine and yell insults. I managed to get by for a while, sleeping when I could and feeling relieved when I left for work. It soon caught up with me, and eventually I was so tired that I actually missed nights at work due to not having enough sleep. I used holidays/worked days off to give back the time.
I eventually had to change shifts because of this.
Moving on to a back shift (2pm - 10pm), I thought I would be able to get a decent sleep overnight. WRONG !
This old woman knew I was home, because my car was outside !
Anyway, I struggled along for the next couple of years on very little sleep. I was given Ill Health Retirement last August (arthritis of my spine & both SI joints), so now I'm at home alot more. I don't have a car now, and we have a limited bus service, so I feel trapped .
I just can't get away from this woman's constant yelling. I'm lucky, on a good night, to get 3-4 hours sleep. Having to sleep on the sofa, because the noise of her yelling during the night wakes me easily. I can't sleep in the bedroom above her, or the one next door to that, as it sounds like she is in the room with me when she starts. My Mum uses the other room, and sleeps like a log so rarely gets woken up. The sofa is therefore my best option, as the back of it AND the wall quieten the noise SLIGHTLY.
It has now got to the point that I can't get to sleep at all at night, and just crash out for a couple of hours at a time on the sofa. Even then, I'm always woken up again by the woman downstairs.
If she isn't in her living room yelling insults, she does it in every single bedroom, the kitchen, her hallway AND her bathroom, throughout the day EVERY day . She slams the outside doors, front and back, slams windows, and opens then slams all of the bedroom doors. She also turns the volume up full on her TV, and sits laughing
But guess what ? She STOPS all of this behaviour 5-10 minutes before she KNOWS someone will be visiting her (home helps are at around 9am and 6pm, her son in law comes at 4pm every day).
This is when she behaves normally, and is the only time. As soon as her visitors have left, she starts the yelling etc again and carries on for hours on end .
Anyone who has read this far, Thankyou, you deserve a medal .
So, I've been in touch with social services who passed me on to the antisocial behaviour team. A social worker, her own GP and her family ALL know about this behaviour but the opinion is that she is physically and mentally ok, just obsessed with us.
The week before last, I rang the council in desperation to ask if there was anything else I could do. I broke down in tears to the extent that the woman who answered, kept telling me to stay on the line, don't hang up .
She passed me on to the head of Environmental Health !
After calming me down, he told me "we have a very good machine here which we use in these circumstances". Sound recording equipment !
He told me there is a slight waiting time for it, but we will get it to you as soon as we can. It should be about 2 weeks wait.
On Monday last week, I had another visit from the lady from the antisocial behaviour team. On Friday last week, Environmental health brought and installed the sound recording equipment. It was collected this afternoon.
The woman was quieter than she normally is, but I did manage to record her shouting insults, and threatning to hit my dog.
On Monday (26th), she started at 10.47pm, and went on continuously until 9.20pm on Tuesday (27th). 22 hours 33 minutes in total, and I only got 4 hours 20 minutes sleep during these 2 days .
I'm mentally and physically exhausted.
Within minutes of the sound recording equipment being collected today, she started again. This has been since 1.30pm and will keep going on until she falls asleep.
Now, I just have to wait for the results of my recording, and wait to see what happens next.
I don't know how much longer this is going to continue, and I don't know how much longer I can cope .
To top it all, it's exactly a year today since I lost my newborn foal, spent all night sitting in the stable with my very ill 5yo mare, and tomorrow, it's exactly a year since she had to be PTS
Thankyou for reading this far . x.

[bow1607]

Flippin heck!!!!!! The only thing I can say is that if the sound recorder has picked up noise after 11pm she will be in trouble and any other excessive noise through out the day will also be there.
I really don't know what else to say apart from offer you a big cyber (((((hug))))) and keep us updated on the batty old mare!

[Julie(luke3)]

I am with bow and can only offer lots of hugs xxx What about getting the council to move you and your mum? Not ideal I know, but it has got to be better than living in such hell xxxx

[wildnative]

Thankyou bow1607 and luke3
The recording equipment I had, is high spec, Class A (court admissable), calibrated and time stamped.
I won't hear anything back from the council/environmental health until next week. I managed to record pretty much everything over thr week, including the threats made towards "battering" my dog.
My dog doesn't deserve that. She is the quietest dog you would ever meet and has never harmed anyone or anything in her life. The woman has decided (after 6 1/2 years) that she suddenly doesn't like my dog, that she is dangerous, and liable to bite her and kill another neighbour's puppy. (Same woman used to encourage my dog into her flat and feed her rich tea biscuits !!!).
She is an 8yo Staffie, and the most dog/people friendly Staffie EVER. I've even trained her to pick things up for me, as having arthritis of my spine & both SI joints, picking things up off the floor can be difficult sometimes

Meanwhile, I'm trying to keep myself occupied by drawing horse portraits from photos. A - to take my mind off this woman, and B - to take my mind of losing my newborn foal and my 5yo mare a year ago this weekend.
Otherwise, I feel like swallowing a handful of my painkillers as it seems like the only escape sometimes (Don't worry, I DON'T have the guts to do that).

[ruftytuftyrider]

Good luck, hope the Council will do something now.

[Julie(luke3)]

I'm really sorry about your mare and foal

I know it probably won't work!, but, what about buying the lady some flowers or chocolates from your dog? and leaving them by her door? I know you probably think I am mad(I know you are very upset), but just maybe it will make her realize what she is doing? xx

Might be worth a try xxxx

[rubydoo]

my elderly neighbour knocked on my door and said he was going to f**ing shoot my dog i brew my top at him ! some old people are so bored they just want to entertain themselves .
i know your very upset with this lady but is there no way you can talk to her and try to resolve the probs? does she have family you could talk too ? x

[Erinx]

I like lukes idea of flowers, bit of reverse sycology she mite think ur not all bad.

What about investing in a decent pair of ear plugs?

She is probably lonely really but that doesn't make what she is doing right!

X

[fanfarefan]

omg what the -F------------------------------------------- DOES THIS WOMEN THINK SHES GOING TO GET OUT OF BEHAVING LIKE THIS , i feel oh oh so sorry for you , keep your head up , you are a stronger person than she is , and the proof of the pudding will be in the results of the recordings , ---- is there any option to move your tenancy??

[welsha]

Its the Councils responsibility to do something about this. have they given you an events diary to fill in? If not you need to make sure you write everything down - word for word if you can - with times and dates. Im hopeful that the sound recordings will help you. The Council should have an Anti Social Behaviour Officer. Its them you need to be speaking to and badgering until something is done. Have they mentioned mediation between the two of you or the possibility of an acceptable behaviour contract (ABC) which she is asked to sign. You arent alone. This happens quite a lot. I see it regulary in my job but councils have very strong powers to deal with it. May be that they are not wishing to use them due to her age. Keep pushing them. Good luck and stay strong xxx

[wildnative]

Thankyou everyone
luke3, I'm trying so hard to keep myself together right now. I want to post a photo in memory of them, but will leave it until after my Mum has gone to bed. There are a few forums I use, and FB to do this on. This time last year, my vet had been with us at the yard since 7pm. From 10pm onwards, I sat in the stable with her all night. Not knowing at the time that she was dying. My vet and the equine hospital thought it was a foaling complication. After further tests the following day, it was acute grass sickness. I'll shut up about my babies for now as I'm about to start blubbing.
The flowers and chocolates would work, but only very short term due to the kind of person she is. I actually used to go in for a chat. I did that because I was trying the reverse psychology of befriending her despite her being nasty towards us. One day, I was running late for a chiropracter appointment. She was standing at her door and wanted to chat. I apologised, said I was late for an appointment but would pop in to see her when I got back. She slammed her door in my face and has upped the ante with her nastiness ever since. That was in early 2008. I'd been in severe pain with my back, and was going to a chiropracter while waiting for an MRI scan to see if I needed surgery, which I did.
So, I HAVE tried the nice approach. It works only if you play by her rules.
Her daughter lives a couple of streets away but rarely visits. Daughter's hubby brings the woman a plate of food every day at 4pm. They can't even look us in the eye ! Their immediate response to seeing us is to look down at the ground as if they are embarrased or ashamed. I don't know how to approach them, but the social workers, antisocial behaviour team, the woman's GP and now, the environmental health team have all spoken to the daughter & son in law about this.
If my Mum was being a problem neighbour to this extent, the first thing I would want to do would be to speak to the affected neighbour to try to work it out together, not scurry by with my head hung in shame. I honestly don't know how they would respond if I was to say, "Hi Jean/Bobby, could I possibly have a quiet word about your Mum ? " They might go nuts. So I'm leaving that to the trained staff who are used to dealing with situations like this.
GOOD GRIEF ! Another Essay Sorry .
Earplugs would have to be seriously heavy duty industrial ones, we can hear her OVER our television (not turned up loud) when she is at her front door.....at the opposite end of the flat , but thanks .
fanfarefan, Thankyou, and my thoughts exactly...WTF ?
Regarding moving, my Gran was the first ever tennant when these flats were built. My Mum grew up here, we spent most weekends and a lot of the school holidays here. My Mum moved in to look after my Gran after my Gran had a fall and took over the tennancy. I've been here with my Mum for the last 7 years. The flat (although rented) has been in our family since it was built in the 1930's. We kind of have a family tie to it in that case. The village is in a heritage area. Most of the buildings on the main road are Grade 1 listed, which includes a viaduct (designed by Telfer) as you come into the village from the Edinburgh side. The surrounding countryside is beautiful, farmers do their bit for conservation so the birds and wildlife is very rich. I'm a 15/20 minute walk from a large country park. If I walk from the flat, 5 mins along a quiet road, across 2 fields, over the fence into the country park, the yard where I keep my girls (with 100 acres of all year grazing + 3 schools) is at the other end of the country park. The yard is less than 2 miles from the flat.
The old woman however, has not lived here for as long as my family have. Personally, it is SHE who should be moved. Either into sheltered housing if she needs more care/isn't coping with living alone , move in with a family member (which I doubt would happen as they hardly come to visit her), or into a smaller house more suitable to a pensioner on her own. These flats have 3 bedrooms ! Whereas Mum and I use one each, leaving a spare for when my brother or either of my 2 sisters visit and stay over, this pensioner is living alone, has nobody stay over and is occupying a 5 appartment flat (3 bedrooms + kitchen + living room), when there could be a young family desperately in need of a flat this size.
PLUS, SHE is the one causing the disturbance. I don't ever think it is fair that victims should have to move in these circumstances. Move the troublemaker (or at least have a qualified carer/ family member live in with her)

[wildnative]

Mar 30, 2012 20:28:54 GMT welsha said:

Its the Councils responsibility to do something about this. have they given you an events diary to fill in? If not you need to make sure you write everything down - word for word if you can - with times and dates. Im hopeful that the sound recordings will help you. The Council should have an Anti Social Behaviour Officer. Its them you need to be speaking to and badgering until something is done. Have they mentioned mediation between the two of you or the possibility of an acceptable behaviour contract (ABC) which she is asked to sign. You arent alone. This happens quite a lot. I see it regulary in my job but councils have very strong powers to deal with it. May be that they are not wishing to use them due to her age. Keep pushing them. Good luck and stay strong xxx

Thankyou welsha
Due to my essay above ( ), I didn't see your post.
The woman IS actually in breach of the tennancy agreement. Environmental Health officer told me that she definitely is behaving antisocially, and that there is also an element of antisocial noise. He told me that due to her age, Social Work will have to be involved.
She knows that she is in the wrong due to the amount of visits she has had recently. (After these visits, she always says "Oh Yes, I'M the bad one" and then goes off on one yelling even more insults, shouting more loudly and for longer). She has also made reference a number of times to specific things I have told the council team. It is my understanding that after a complaint, the "nuisance" person is told that a complaint has been made against them for x,y,z. The identity of the person making the complaint is not disclosed.
The "nuisance" person is then told how they "should" conduct themselves to resolve the problem. Failure to comply with this warning progresses the complaint to the next level. In my case, that is the recording equipment installed to collate evidence of the alleged noise disturbance. (I have also been keeping a written record of everything, no matter how small, and as detailed as possible).
I believe the next step is for the antisocial behaviour team and environmental health team to investigate the evidence thoroughly, if found guilty, next step in the process being an Antisocial Behaviour Order (ASBO). If the problem neighbour STILL doesn't comply, that's when the council take steps towards eviction.
Don't get me wrong, I DON'T want to see an old woman get evicted. I'd be happy if they could move her to more appropriate housing, beside people of a similar age, somewhere that a warden regularly checks on the residents to make sure they are okay. Not a care home, but sheltered housing

[elmo209]

i feel really sorry for you and she must be a right pain.... oh dear!

[Good idea]

Mar 30, 2012 19:33:06 GMT @Erinx said:

I like lukes idea of flowers, bit of reverse sycology she mite think ur not all bad.

What about investing in a decent pair of ear plugs?

She is probably lonely really but that doesn't make what she is doing right!

X

I also like this idea. It is worth a try!

[minibutmighty]

Poor you! I really hope that you get it all sorted now!
I am amazed she has the stamina to be excessively loud for that long!
Aswell as ear plugs what about listening to music on ipod/phone with some of the noise cancelling head phones you can buy? My brother has some and usually cant hear us shouting to get his attention in the car, never mind next door!
Good Luck! x

[vikki85]

Oh my goodness, it sounds like an absolute nightmare and I don't know how you've put up with it for so long, you poor thing! ((hugs)) I really hope the sound recording equipment brings about some quicker results for you!

I don't know how they can say that she's ok mentally, she may seem
normal to speak to but that level of obsession is NOT normal, surely?!

[wildnative]

Thanks rivali .
It is our council who are dealing with this. She is a council tenant, and so are we.
The council antisocial behaviour team, environmental health team and the local police have all said that she is definitely being antisocial. Her age however, means that they have to go through social services rather than deal with her as they would with someone younger.

Good idea (and Erinx), I've gone down the "being friendly" route before (went in for a chat every day/always asked if she needed anything when I was going to the shops). It only works if you are at her beck and call ALL the time. She DID slam her door in my face once when I was late for an appointment, and apologised nicely that I couldn't stop and chat at that precise second. She has been a total cow ever since (and that was 4 years ago).
Earplugs ? Should I really have to sit in my flat with earplugs in ? Considering the amount of time she spends being abusive, and that the timing is very irregular, I'd have to wear them permanently including while trying to sleep .
I do sit for hours listening to music on headphones as it is when she keeps me awake ALL night .
As for flowers/chocolates, you know what, I am SO mentally and physically exhausted because of all of this that I haven't left the house for WEEKS. I'm hardly eating anything, often going 2 or 3 days without food because my stomach is in knots with the stress of this. If I DID manage to find the strength to get to a shop (nearest is a mile and I don't have a car), I certainly wouldn't be buying flowers or anything else for someone who is seriously affecting my health and wellbeing.

While I had the recording equipment, she DID go on continuously (with very short intervals of being quiet - longest was 3 hours) for 22 hours and 33 minutes. This was ALL recorded on the equipment which meant I sat for hours pressing the record button and taking written notes (which the council also now have).
HER attitude to all of this is "I will do what I want in MY flat." She says that quite a lot. I can imagine this is coming from being told to stop what she is doing by council staff.
Lonely ? Her family knows what is happening, the council and social services have spoken to them about it a number of times. Her DAUGHTER lives 2 STREETS AWAY ! (sorry , I'm not "shouting" by typing in caps, more emphasising points).
Right now, I feel like just totally giving up the horses. I haven't been able to see them for a while because of this. Ok, they are on grass livery in a huge field, and the YO is keeping an eye on them, but this can't go on. Anyone want a 4yo Welsh D and a 3yo New Forest ? .
Then I just won't have any reason AT ALL to leave the house ever again .

[CarolineNelson]

I'm posting as me (as I do, on the increasingly rare occasions that I make a post) so not hiding my identity.

Ok, here is a positive to try to help you get out of this mess. Lots of kindly people have sent you hugs and sympathy - but you are getting neither from me.

For this reason.

You must, absolutely MUST, get out of the house and go to see your ponies.
In your previous post (#10) you say how lovely it is where the ponies live and what a nice walk it is to get there.
You say you have back problems and I can truly relate to that.

BUT surely, by staying in the house 24/7, listening to this awful tirade from the neighbiour from hell, in a perverse way you are further torturing yourself.

Get out and hear the silence, the birdsong, even the traffic!

Take little steps. Maybe go to see the ponies once a week to begin with. Then twice and so on.
Be brave and go to the shop and get a carrot or similar for them. Buy yourself a wee treat, even something small like a juice or a bottle of water for your walk.
If you need to, use a long stick to help with your balance.
Heavens, my back was so bad that I had to use one (with safety and caution) to judge a week or so ago. Subsequently, my brilliant chiropractor has done the best he can for me yet again.

But don't, absolutely don't, let this woman ruin your life.

If I knew who you were I'd personally come and take you to see your ponies. You might even quite enjoy it. I can't live more that 40 or so miles from you.

Please try.

[fanfarefan]

CN , you are absolutely right , and i dont want to be too rude about this woman as i dont know her , but WN dont let this scum get you down so much that you cant go and see your ponies , she will have won otherwise , and you certainly cant let that happen , im not sure how you have coped for so long with this woman being so awful , im sure that i personally think that i would be doing time , i couldnt have coped , so therefore i beleive you are a stronger person than most , please try and find just a little strength to get some fresh air and shake this woman off just for a few minutes , im certain that i can speak for all who have read your post that you have all our sympathy , which i know doesnt help your predicament , but we are thinking of you and send big hugs and all our best wishes , chin up babes

[wildnative]

Thankyou Caroline and fanfarefan.
I'll post a proper reply later as I'm in a bit of an emotional mess right now. Got an email this morning from the council saying there's nothing they can do about her due to her " age and mental health."
WHAT ABOUT MY MENTAL HEALTH ?
I'm really, really not coping with this

[brindlerainbow]

Your ponies are your reason for getting up and leaving the house!!! Im sure your friend is looking after them perfectly well but they are your resposnsibility. You are in a dreadful situation and im guessing you are feeling sorry for yourself having to listen to that racket day and night. However you need to get up and get out the house and start living again, by staying in doors you are playing right into this old witches hands she has you by the balls and she knows it. If you left the house and went to mess around with your ponies for a few hours then you are at least not sitting in doors listening to her noise. Your mental health will only get worse, you are going round in a vicious circle - the old woman makes a racket, it drives you mad, you can't sleep, you feel sorry for your self and so it goes round and round!!! Go out and visit friends catch the bus if you don't have a car, go out for a walk, go shopping, go out to the pub for lunch in fact just do anything that gets you out of the house. In fact do anything but stay in all day beacuse you are torturing yourself. No one is making you stay in and listen to it you are chossing to do that, you can also choose to go out and live a little. Why not book a weekend away somewhere. Don't let the council fob you off with her age and mental health malarky tell them they have to do something about it. Stop telling yourself that your really,really not coping with this. Start telling yourself that you are a strong woman and that you will not be harrassed by a 90 year old vindictive witch!!!! You can do it you just need a shove in the right direction Good luck, look forward to hearing this evening how your afternoon out with your ponies went

[flee]

CarolineNelson ( or' Oh Wise One ' as she shall henceforth be known !) is absolutely right . You have adopted a total 'victim' mentality and are trapped in a vicious circle .You are depriving YOURSELF of food ( surely you can force yourself to eat something ) and sleep ( WHY can't you wear 'industrial strength ' ear plugs if it means you get a good nights sleep ?) and you are refusing to leave your home .
Yes - you are being targeted by a bully ( because that's exactly what she is ) but it's entirely up to you wether you choose to become her victim or not .
Get some sleep . eat a decent meal and GET OUT OF THE HOUSE - if for no other reason than that it'll annoy the hell out of her .

[merrymooxx]

i agree with all the posts above !!
but its not right that they cant do anything about it !!!!!
surely they have listened to the recording and read your notes

[wildnative]

Update !
She is STILL behaving in the same way.
On Tuesday morning, she started yelling at 4AM, and carried on until her home help came in at 10. Home help left, she started up again and didn't stop until her son in law arrived at 4pm.
Just before he arrived, I stuck a "post it" note to the outside of her letterbox. She was quieter for the rest of Tuesday. The "post it" note said, "She has been yelling insults constantly since 4AM ! Please do something."
Wednesday, she was pretty quiet all day, although she started slamming her windows shut VERY, VERY hard every little while. (I hope the blooming glass falls out ! ).
Her son in law put a note through our letterbox on Wednesday when he arrived at 4pm. It said, "I am sorry about the noise my Mum is making. We are trying to get help from Doctors, and I had a meeting with a lady from the council last week." Signed by her daughter. (Lady from the council is the same one I have been speaking to). So, now I have in writing, their acknowledgement that she IS causing problems. That's in addition to all of my emails sent and recieved from the council over the past 15 months. (Evidence ).
Thursday, she started up again but was quieter than normal. LOTS of slamming doors and windows.
This morning, she was back to her usual self shouting insults loudly, starting at 5am. She nearly got caught out ! Her home help walked in WHILE she was shouting. I did hear her say, "They are not getting away with it !"
I emailed the lady from the council, and had done another twice this week, ALL of which were not replied to. So, I filled in an online complaint form on the council website. She replied after that !
Her email was very brief. It said, "Thankyou for your update emails and the online complaint form you filled in this morning." She also said that the case had now been forwarded to social work, and she told me the name of the social worker allocated to my neighbour.
That last email came across as being very blunt, and that she seemed glad to "get rid" (pass the buck ).
I decided to email social work with my details of the problem. Describing my neighbour's behaviour in detail, and stating dates and recipients of emails I had sent/recieved over the past 15 months. I also stated in this email the effect my neighbour's behaviour is having on MY health and wellbeing.
I've had some fantastic and very helpful advice by PM, THANKYOU rivali ;D, after which I sent an email to the lady from the council and another one to the housing department (addressed F.A.O. Housing Officer), which said, " I have been advised to ask for a Neighbourhood Impact Statment to be completed and witnessed by myself, to officially register how my neighbour's behaviour is affecting my health. I also said that I will be speaking to my GP concerning the issue.
Wow ! You know what, You really have no idea how much you have all helped me here ;D
Thankyou ALL, and I'll update again when I know what the next step is.

[CarolineNelson]

You sound much more positive, both on here and by PM.
Good - well (really well) done!!!
But, have you been out and seen the ponies yet?

CN. xx

[crazyshetlandlady]

Hope they manage to sort the old baggage out soon!

[maislow]

God what a total nightmare for you. Maybe when she's kicking off ring the council & let them listen to her. Maybe they'll get sick of hearing her & do something for you. Try & go to your ponies just so you get away from the old bag