fylde wilkie/snaffle for lead rein

[ballywildrick]

Hi everyone just looking to see what you all prefair. I myself prefair a snaffle but was advised to try a wilkie to hold the pony in a better outline?

Answers please

[GinaGeo]

Personally I prefer to see a pony in a snaffle. Think the wilkie produces far too shuffly paces in a lot of cases. I am a snaffle girl anyway though!

[WalenaBlackKnight]

I've just recently put my pony in a Wilkie a couple of months ago and he's great in it. I used to have him in a loose ring snaffle but he was very heavy on my hand and now he sits in his outline by himself x

[sageandonion]

For goodness sake! ponies do not sit in an outline by themself. The wilkie pulls their head in, tight side reins in the stable does that as well. If that is the shape you require then go ahead but you will also need to be prepared for the physical and mental trauma that causes. Pony will not be heavy for a while, he is backing off the severity but in due course you will be paying the price.

Anyway, to OP, the clue is in the words "to hold".

[muggley]

As S&O said.

I honestly think Wilkies should be banned outright and all together in the show ring - especially in kids classes as it is just a short term solution to a long term problem. If I had my way all Wilkies would be melted down and destroyed and turned into windchimes - just as unsightly, annoying and distracting but they are essentially harmless.

[watchbank]

I tried wilkies and decided i did not like them, the amount of ponies you see shown in them that produce a false outline because of the un-natural pressure on the head. Use a snaffle and get it going correctly with a basic snaffle - hard work makes it happen, wilkies force it to happen.

[rubydoo]

alot of bits will "hold" a pony in an outline but it wont be correct , to acheive an outline the pony must be working from behind and engaginging the hindquarters .
having said that i have no problem with wilkies(in tthe hand of and experienced rider) but would class them of more of a gag , i ride my sec c in a wilkie in winter .
i feel they are wrong for leadrein classes, my sec a has an eggbutt snaffle for leadrein and she is very light in hand , i think they have become a fasion accessory.

[nia2311]

Snaffle only for lead rein. I would say in the hands of a small child, possibly pulling on the mouth, bouncy hands etc it would be unsuitable and unfair on pony to use a wilkie. I agree with the others - you should be able to school them to go in an outline in a normal snaffle - shouldn't be holding them in with a bit of kit......

[tabbyx]

Actually a Wilkie would be kinder on the mouth with bouncing/unsteady hands as it acts on the poll before it acts on the mouth, hence why so many people use it with small children to stop the ponies getting rock hard mouths, I use one on my m&m lr as I have a very tiny 6yr old jockey so the wilkie stops the pony getting a hard mouth(she has a handle for trot), he doesn't need it for breaks or to pull his head in, I ride him in a loose ring ported snaffle or a french link short cheek fulmer but I am almost 10 years older than my lr jockey so have a much better seat, longer and stronger legs and steadier hands so I can ride him into a correct outline in an ordinary snaffle, as the pony is only young and jockey so small we put the wilkie on at shows to keep the pony's mouth softer and give tiny jockey a bit of help.
I would never use a wilkie for everyday schooling, I use one on my 13.2 hacking or jumping and in the ring for novices as he is built like a tank and knows it, I'm only 5ft1 so not alot of me to stop him if he gets spooked or excited.

Posted before i'd finished, ETA
If the OP's pony goes in a nice outline with a small jockey on in an ordinary snaffle then stick to that.
Please don't turn this into a bashing as it has before because I use a wilkie, I would never use one for everyday schooling. It is my personal choice to use one, they are my ponies and I know them like the back of my hand, as none or very few of you do I would appreciate it if you did not take it upon yourself to tell me how awful I am for using one and how appalingly schooled my ponies must be because I hack out in a wilkie!

[sageandonion]

Not going to bash because of the wilkie, sometimes it takes time and experience to learn the correct way and it goes for all things in life, if you know no different you are satisified with what you have.

I hope one day you experience the thrill of real balance, collection and 'oneness' that comes from riding a happy horse truly from behind. When you have had that, even for a fleeting moment, your wilkies and gadgets will be relegated to the bin or put on ebay where they will be snapped up by someone else who thinks they have it when sadly for them and the ponies they ride, they do not.

[hatman]

Well said sagey

[tabbyx]

To be honest s&o, people like you are the reason I wouldn't touch competitive dressage with a barge pole, you take an absolute holier than thou approach to everything and everyone even if the subject you are 'advising' on you have no idea about! and quite frankly you are one of the rudest and conceted people I have ever had the misfortune of coming across.

My ponies are balanced, correctly schooled, happy and work through their backs, I've had lessons with grand price dressage riders(on horses they broke and schooled themselves, they didn't buy a ready made horse) and they have all said that my ponies are some of the very best schooled ponies in the area and that they wouldn't look out of place winning a novice dressage test.
If you saw the backend on my ponies I must be doing something right, they must be working through from behind, they aren't strapped behind, very rarely do hillwork as the land is flat as a pancake round here, they are occassionally are lunged in the pessoa, they aren't pumped full of food or steroids.
Do you ever actually compete on dressage? Or are you one of the ever increasing amounts of people that spends endless amounts of time and money training but never actually go anywhere and compete?

[jadey01]

well said tbh for my slightly bigger stronger boy i prefer a wilkie as horses are liek people some prefer poll pressure to mouth pressure and vis versa you can still ride ina wilkie and produce enough forward momentum and correct outline is established,its mainly acting on the polenot the mouth therefore is kinder as it doesnt damage,anything including a bog standard snaffle in worng hands can cut mark and hurt a horses mouth,end of day we all have very different veiws i dont belive in using this on a unschool horse or pony but on ones that do no what your asking and do hang slightly and prefer gental pole pressure i see no wrong the rider produce a flase outline not the equipment! and there not on about dressage btw although well said, to many showing ponys would get pulled down in dressage for some of there schooling! balance and established paces being able to produce correct outline forward momentum and collection come with practise age of horse and pony and correct usage of materials,but dont call yourselves good riders when you blame equipment its down to the horses liking and the riders ridings at end of day horses are like children what one likes another wil not.oh and after using my wilkie for 2 months im now back to hanging cheek snaffle for novice dressage which i compete at and school at elementry level.and mine are all big strong cob and cob x's!thank you now less bit*hing please its become a tedious embarisment in the horse world people do many different things none are wrong or right.

[snowflake]

Apr 2, 2012 22:31:17 GMT tabbyx said:

To be honest s&o, people like you are the reason I wouldn't touch competitive dressage with a barge pole, you take an absolute holier than thou approach to everything and everyone even if the subject you are 'advising' on you have no idea about! and quite frankly you are one of the rudest and conceted people I have ever had the misfortune of coming across.

My ponies are balanced, correctly schooled, happy and work through their backs, I've had lessons with grand price dressage riders(on horses they broke and schooled themselves, they didn't buy a ready made horse) and they have all said that my ponies are some of the very best schooled ponies in the area and that they wouldn't look out of place winning a novice dressage test.
If you saw the backend on my ponies I must be doing something right, they must be working through from behind, they aren't strapped behind, very rarely do hillwork as the land is flat as a pancake round here, they are occassionally are lunged in the pessoa, they aren't pumped full of food or steroids.
Do you ever actually compete on dressage? Or are you one of the ever increasing amounts of people that spends endless amounts of time and money training but never actually go anywhere and compete?

I myself have seen Tabbys ponies compete in the ring (at high level I must admit) & they go fantastically balanced & she rides fabulously well. There's not many people at 15 who break the ponies themselves, school them themselves, without adult interference, & then gets praised by grand-prix Dressage riders? Well I don't know many. Tabby hasn't got ponies handed on her plate, her current 14hander I saw a few years back, needless to say she must work pretty dam hard - lovely pony, but not the easiest.

I really think its unfair to pick on her, when you haven't seen a) how she rides & 2) how her ponies go.

Yes if you do not like wilkies, fair enough, but it's Tabby's personal choice if she wishes to use one - Ive seen many a producer use Gags & so on, on a regular basis, Tabby herself schools her ponies in a snaffle. She gives them variety & schools them correctly. Last year at BSPS Summer Championships I watched Tabby & have to say, the way she rode you could tell she the ponies use their back end, they used their back ends, hocks engaged, etc. Tbf if the showing circuit had more people like Tabby Oliver & Oliver Show Team more well schooled ponies would be winning. Not to say that all showing ponies are badly schooled, but Tabby schools correctly & a Wilkie is only used now & then.& finally Tabby has said, she does NOT use the Wilkie to pull the pony in, but to help the child & pony. Just saying, have you seen Tabby ride? Have you seen her ponies? How do you know Tabby hasn't ridden a perfectly schooled pony? Because IMO she is a truly fantastic, talented, polite & one of the most fantastic jockies, & her ponies are an absolute credit to her - & not some adult who pops a Gag on & let's her just ride in the ring.

Just saying please don't crit Tabby, if you haven't seen her I see what your saying & agree but Tabby isn't using one cruely & is a fantastic rider - I really cannot put into words how well she gets her ponies going, I have seen.

[ballywildrick]

I didn't realise I would open such a can of worms asking this question. The little pony in question schools well for me but pokes his nose with my son who is 5 on the lead. Thank you tabby I have ordered a Wilkie. Before I thought wilkies where severe and I was keeping them for hopefully in time first ridden. I hadn't realised in fact they are kinder on a ponies mouth with young hands bouncing around than a snaffle. I will let you know once it has arrived and we give it a try. All opinions are welcome but I don't like to hear arguing x

[snowflake]

Ballywildrick back to the point of the thread lol, they do use poll pressure to bring them down, but if your purpose is to keep their head still, as Tabby said it will keep their head still - we used a Wilkie in LR for my little brother when he was 5 & bounced. We used a normal snaffle once he'd grasped keeping his hands still!

[pipandwill]

I dont have a particular problem with wilkies. None of mine have one at the moment. But, I can also vouch that all off tabby's ponies never look in a 'false' outline. I dont think it s fair to judge people when you havnt seen there ponies go. However I do realise that there are a certain amount of people who in-correctly use wilkies.

[sarahp]

I can see both sides of this - I'm all for correct riding and schooling as should be found in dressage and championed by S&O. And I don't know Tabby so this is nothing to do with her or her ponies.

BUT - no small child on the LR is going to be able to ride a pony correctly from behind into an outline, it's something that is learned later down the line, so if showing demands the pony's nose to be tucked in then short cuts like wilkies will be used to do so. Not my way of doing things but each individual's choice.

[catkin]

In an ideal world we would all like our animals to go in the most correct way in the simplest bridle possible. But the world is not perfect and no animal or rider are the same. Small riders on the lead rein in the show ring usually have little influence on the way the pony goes and certainly are not capable or riding them 'through'. Yes, a little snaffle is the best if possible, but I would far rather have a pony reacting to a different/stronger bit and carrying themselves as required rather than using a 'softer' bit and lugging them round.

As children we all hunted and did lots of fairly fast work with our ponies from a very young age. My mother was often asked why our ponies had 'sharper' bits than a snaffle (not all but some) and her answer was that she would rather we developed soft, sympathetic hands than lugged a pony around in a bit that only just 'did the job'. I think she was quite correct.

S&O, I am in no way diminishing your valid opinions, but small children do require a slightly different approach. At my judges assessment, we had a long and interesting discussion about how a child's pony should go and it was concluded (correctly in my opinion) that it is far better for them to sit slightly behind the bridle. This was on the gounds of a. safety and b. that even the best small children simply don't have the leg to ride through into a correct outline.

Each to their own, but Tabby does have a valid point IMHO!

[sarahp]

I'd look at modern day LR showing completely differently to small children actually learning to ride though, and my remarks above were limited to the former, as I thought the thread was.

I'd agree with your mother if we are discussing children learning to actually ride by themselves and do things, that's a different matter, they have to be safe and in control. I still hate wilkies though! They hadn't been invented when my daughter was small and her 11.2 Dartmoor did everything safely in a snaffle although we didn't do much showing anyway, more "doing". I have a photo up in front of me now of them in a local LR class when she was 6yo - complete with snaffle and poking nose, which was what was expected of a small child then as it was accepted that they would not learn to ride in an correct outline until a later stage when they had already mastered brakes, accelerator and steering! Didn't stop them doing all sorts of stuff though. And underneath that is one taken at the same show off the lead two years later - pony in exactly the same outline with poking nose but now off the lead.

[elmere]

We had a workers in the Fylde wilkie, I liked it as it didnt pinch with how it was connected to the ring, we used it for extra control when he got a little keen and he was still pokey in it. Its funny how judges allow novice ponies to be a bit pokey but it is not expected by ponies with novice riders on board, there is alot of pressure put on theses lr/fr competitors to present the perfect picture.

Just realised I was supposed to post this on the other thread comparing the wilkies.

[ppsmith98]

well i use a wilkie in the show ring on my sec b and c and they are fine so to be honest they shouldn't be banned.