Judges and bits

[wondering]

After watching from the ringside for a while now, I am surprised at see the bits that are being allowed to be used in affiliated classes.

Novices in bits that may appear like a snaffle, but is not etc

My question is
Should Judges have a good range of knowledge on bits and would they penalise if they came across something that isn't what it should be?

I really do appreciate the role a Judge undertakes, they are really on the ball for ride and confirmation, is the bit in the mouth being over looked due to focusing more on this?

Just an observation

[jessandoscar]

I took my pony to a show in an open class wearing a tom thumb, i know your not meant to but was having a tricky time with the pony at the time and needed brakes, knew i wasn't going to be placed due to the bit but just wanted experience.

I came 1st with the judge commenting on how they 'loved my pelham, and how it must be new as they'd never seen it in the ring before'

[desktop]

May 28, 2012 21:15:20 GMT jessandoscar said:

I took my pony to a show in an open class wearing a tom thumb, i know your not meant to but was having a tricky time with the pony at the time and needed brakes, knew i wasn't going to be placed due to the bit but just wanted experience.

I came 1st with the judge commenting on how they 'loved my pelham, and how it must be new as they'd never seen it in the ring before'

Who has told you that you cant use a tom thumb bit in an open class? I have spoken to a couple of judges about using a tom thumb on my mare and they have no problem with it

[cayo]

I too have seen tom thumbs used quite a lot i didnt think they were not allowed ,also not all novice classes are snaffle only some say any suitable bit

[wondering]

So its a free for all now

Suitable being any contraption that keeps your horse in control........barbed wire in mouthpiece, but eggbut snaffle roundings..........REALLY!!

[ballaghstud]

again i say its 'whatever suits the horse and rider'

Im fairly sure that people are getting slightly insane about snaffles - i knew of a lady that point blank refused to ride in anything other than a snaffle even though the horse was far to strong (and yes had been re-schooled many time) - bolted with her skidded on concrete and threw her into a wall - Killed her

I say use whatever suits both of you and make sure you can stop - if this a 'free for all' then i would rather have that than not be able to stop!

[larkhaven]

A correctly used bit which gives some poll pressure is going to cause much less discomfort than a snaffle constantly being hauled on and bruising the bars or the roof of the mouth. IMO

[Erinx]

May 29, 2012 7:56:39 GMT @wondering said:

So its a free for all now

Suitable being any contraption that keeps your horse in control........barbed wire in mouthpiece, but eggbut snaffle roundings..........REALLY!!

I cannot control my fell and a snaffle and he knows it! Surely for the safety of myself, my horse and other people it's better for me to ride in a stronger bit so I can control him............

[GinaGeo]

I'm not a fan of wilkie's, they should not be used as a snaffle, they apply poll pressure. First Ridden classes I've seen specify "Snaffle bridle should be worn", therefore Wilkie's really ought to not be seen on them! So technically judges 'ought' to place them down - as they're not following the rules of the class, unfortunately that's very hard when every pony is wearing one!

However, the worst "snaffle" bits I've seen are those with hideous mouthpieces but snaffle rings to appear as a snaffle. The ones with barbed wire, chainsaw chains and cheese wire for mouthpieces. And yes if a competitor is found to be using such a vile contraption they should be thrown out of the class and IMHO off the show ground all together.

In dressage, bits are checked before entering the ring, along with whip length, turnout and eligibility to wear spurs (Pony Club) by stewards (affiliated and eventing anyway) so why couldn't showing be the same?

[sarahp]

With my old woman bah humbug hat on again - ANY horse or pony properly broken and schooled should go well in a snaffle. And that's a proper snaffle, not the alternatives seen by GG above. So in a novice or small child's class, anything that requires more for the rider to be in control should be marked down for it.

Having said that, outside the show ring of course you need to use something which gives you control, but recognise that it is a fault somewhere along the line of you pony's past that has required something beyond a snaffle.

To move on, experts would in the past move from a snaffle to a double which gives much more finesse in riding, but should not be used as just extra brakes. Some animals' mouths will not have room for the two bits, hence pelhams can be useful for those.

As for jessanoscar's show - if the judge came from a different discipline than showing maybe she hadn't met a tom thumb before, as far as I know it's the only place they are used. Can't say I've ever used one, or examined one closely although I do know what they are.

Now off to find my tin hat!

[wondering]

Should the marking system then accommodate properly schooled animals with the kinder type of bits and penalise ones with the harsher types in?

I have seen young first ridden jockeys riding ponies with gags in ........ children's ponies!!!

[fruity]

I find this really interesting as I've been struggling to bit my show hunter and often wonder about the recommendations I've had and what is kindest, safest, most appropriate???

My dressage trainer is a fan of snaffles but recongnises my young, on the forehand HWT Hunter needs a little more than that. But he is not technically strong, he just leans - this we have addressed with schooling and its coming, but he also has a tendancy to over-bend - again, schooling. At home he has settled in to a drop cheek waterford or running gag and schools lovely and forward in both

Yet high ports seem favoured by alot of showing people and have been recommended countless times. We tried it, deferring to those with greater experience but I'm not overly keen and neither was he. He backed off and got very edgy

Someone else recommended a 'gag overcheck' as part of his double - this gives a little bit of lift on the corner of the mouth and works wonderfully with a simple weymouth; he goes beautifully in it, nice and light and forward. Buuut, this bit is referred to in the rules as 'discouraged' bit - along swales and sam marshes (which I am not familiar with) - so one I am probably better off not competing in, yet is suits the horse incredibly well

To me the gag overcheck is seemingly kinder, and visible and I would hope a judge would look at the whole picture and understand why it is being used rather than defer to the letter of the rules and mark down??

My thoughts, probably in a jumble so apologies (horrid morning, pony at vets with chronic colic :-( ) Be interested to hear others....

[sarahp]

Well that's up to the societies that write the rules isn't it? You could always write to them and make your feelings known.

[fruity]

They have written their rules baes on far more knowledge and understanding than I and I certainly feel in no position to challenge them, but I am interested in other peoples views and considerations to the whys and where-for-alls

Similarly, what works for one may not for others and as a rule this double combination might not suit the majority of horses??

[wondering]

So after what has been voiced on the above threads, it really doesn't matter in Showing societies any more what is in the horses mouth?

and as to voicing concerns or policing it, the societies are managed by the very people who are influencing the use of the unsightly bits, but they would never get challenged!

[sarahp]

Fruity - we cross posted, I was answering wondering's earlier post and hadn't seen yours.

My only comment on your bitting problems is to wonder if the gag overcheck, which I'm not familiar with, can be used to school him and removed when the schooling has been successful, as I assume you will be doing with the snaffle?

[fruity]

Sarahp - that makes more sense! Definitely, he's a 6yo, 17.3 big boy and it just gives that little bit of extra lift and 'oi' I suppose whilst we strengthen him up and teach him to use himself. Where we definitely benefit is training with someone from a purely dressage background - once horse is more established hopefully he will sit nicely in a simple double to compete and very basic stuff at home?

[sarahp]

I'm very much with you - I always had dressage trainers while I was still riding, and of a classical persuasion. As far as I'm concerned dressage up to say novice level is just absolutely basic schooling that any horse should have before going to to other jobs if that's what's wanted.

[wilmira]

i have recently seen a very successful lr pony in a wilkie with a cherry roller mouth piece, does this really constitute a snaffle as the rules state

[shpgirl]

I can understand perhaps needing a 'stronger' bit in the interests of safety for some horses, especially on the day which seems sensible to allow, but then they should expect to be marked down for it as being too strong is a fault which should be penalised.

Again with bits used to help lift a horse up or put pressure on them to put their head down, use them as a transitional measure if appropriate, but again in the show ring they should be marked down as the aim should be to be using the back end and work through the body to achieve those things, not the bit.

Personally, I do and always have ridden my 5 year old in an eggbutt snaffle at home and away, but she is a pretty sensible connie and if she needed something stronger for the time being (for extra control at a busier show, etc) I would use it but with the aim of weaning her off it by correct schooling and experience and I wouldn't expect to be placed well using it.

Edited to say, that this would be in an ideal world, but it would be very impractical to require a judge to go round looking in every horse/pony's mouth and therein lies part of the problem!

[wondering]

May 29, 2012 13:16:37 GMT shpgirl said:

Edited to say, that this would be in an ideal world, but it would be very impractical to require a judge to go round looking in every horse/pony's mouth and therein lies part of the problem!

So should this then be part of the Stewards role to assist the judge, and notify if need be!

Or do continue to allow some to ignore the rules

[vikki85]

This is something I'm in two minds about - I agree that if a class states a snaffle bridle should be used then a true snaffle should be used - I've seen so many wilkies and other questionable 'snaffles' in these classes. However, my pony goes best in a low port Pelham, I find it adds the finesse that sarahp mentioned in an earlier post. So, wherever I'm able too, I do compete in this bit, as I think the pelham is a great bit when used correctly and not necessarily harsh. But I accept some novice classes don't allow this in which case I use a dressage legal snaffle - and I'd never put my horse in any of the monstrosities that are labelled as 'snaffles' these days! I also think that in LR and FR classes where the pony is supposed to be a suitable childs pony, ponies that require harsher bits shouldn't really be in the classes in the first place?

[sjw87]

I've always been under the impression that the bit can play a part in the 'manners' mark?

[helle]

well, in taht case I would like to know WHY it is deemed 'correct' to ride in a pelham or double in an open class, and why most look down at anyone wearing a snaffle insted??
(I know some judges will happily place a pony who goes well regardless of bit, but there are also judges out there who will mark you down for a snaffle in an open class)

[Milliesmum]

I think the reasoning is that in an open class the horse/pony would be expected to be at a higher level of schooling hence understanding the aids given by a double bridle.

Not saying it's right to be put down for a snaffle, but I think that's the reasoning.

[Jessica]

At Herts county our pony was beaten by a welsh C stallion in a snaffle, judge commented on how nice it was to see a pony going correctly in a snaffle.

[helle]

see Jep51, we have had that commet as well, but I have also overheard a lot of ringside judges saying how 'wrong' it is for a pony in a snaffle to win an open class.

Although I understand the reason you give for the pelham Sarahp, part of this tread is questioning if we really should be putting our ponies in bits that are stronger than they actually need,and if the strenght of the bit they are ridden should somehow be reflected in the marks they are given.

Our pony goes lovely in her snaffle, however we have struggled to get her to go equally as nice in a pelham, but feel we get marked down when she shows in open or even JR classes in the snaffle.

[vikki85]

I do see what you are saying helle, and I don't think there is anything wrong with riding a pony in a snaffle in an open class - after all, if it ain't broke don't fix it!

Having said that, not all people use pelhams or doubles for the 'brakes' or as a 'stronger bit', but for the very reasons that MM and sarahp have described. I've never thought of my pelham as a 'braking' bit, simply as something my pony goes well in now we've reached a certain stage in our training. I'd also rather see a pony that doesn't go all that well in a snaffle being ridden 'quietly' and nicely in something that is perhaps considered a 'stronger' bit, than being hauled around in a snaffle.

But then, I do understand helle's point, because how many people do you actually see these days riding in a double bridle, or even a pelham, in the way in which it was originally intended? (not aimed at anyone on here of course!)

[sageandonion]

I also agree that a correctly backed and school horse/pony should go well in a ring/arena in a simple snaffle providing, of course, it is ridden by a correctly schooled rider. Whilst looking to purchase, I have seen so many ponies backed and ridden on in a wilkie and when asked 'why' the number of times the answer was 'to show him where to put his head' !!!! These ponies then have to progress to more and more severe bits as they go through their career.

I do think only certain bits should be allowed in classes and those better riders with their lovely schooled ponies in snaffles should be rewarded by being put to the top of the line.

[Milliesmum]

I had a lovely discussion with someone on facebook the other day. She said 'Roundings are to replace double reins, and I ride my horse in a dutch gag, with roundings on the bottom ring, for looks!'

It was like banging my head against a brick wall!