Any suitable bit whp

[whydo]

Why do the whp rules state any suitable bridle and then the judges put you down on how it is bitted? If ponies should not be in certain bits then surely the rules should state which bits will be discriminated against.

[sarahp]

Well the rules dictate what bit is allowed, and the judge is entitled to put down any in severe bits if he/she feels appropriate - in a ridden class a pony is a better ridden pony if it goes well in a gentle bit, it shows it is more obedient and better schooled.

[puddledub]

I will mark down where I think a bit is 'unsuitable' ..... I HATE the current trend for waterfords in WHPs, I am sorry but NO child has the experience to use a bit like that and should be taught to lighten a pony up in front by riding it forward onto the bridle rather than resorting to an 'easy fix' of a stronger bit.

Although I realsie they look attractive in the mouth and give a better picture than a pelham but I also dont think a swales should be in the hands of a child either and certainly not for WHPs.

At the end of the day it is down to the owner/parent to decised which bit to put in a pony's mouth and if the pony goes significantly better in a stronger bit they will gain style and way of going marks but run the risk of losing one or two if the judge doesnt appreciate the bitting arrangement.

[waterford]

Jul 6, 2012 21:10:42 GMT puddledub said:

I will mark down where I think a bit is 'unsuitable' ..... I HATE the current trend for waterfords in WHPs, I am sorry but NO child has the experience to use a bit like that and should be taught to lighten a pony up in front by riding it forward onto the bridle rather than resorting to an 'easy fix' of a stronger bit.

Although I realsie they look attractive in the mouth and give a better picture than a pelham but I also dont think a swales should be in the hands of a child either and certainly not for WHPs.

At the end of the day it is down to the owner/parent to decised which bit to put in a pony's mouth and if the pony goes significantly better in a stronger bit they will gain style and way of going marks but run the risk of losing one or two if the judge doesnt appreciate the bitting arrangement.

I think you will find, a waterford is far from a quick fix bit! Infact i find it much kinder than any nutcracker action snaffle and, more accepted by alot of ponies, especially those who hate straight bars, ports, french links and the like.
Besides, the waterford is the mouthpiece not the bit as such, so i hope we aren't unlucky enough to be judged by you, waterfords also come in a snaffle variety and far kinder than most usual snaffle mouthpieces and please, do not insinuate children do not know how to use them, there are many child riders, far better than alot of adults!

And, on another note. How many judges, actually do a days hunting? On proper ponies, pray tell me you are not one of these judges, who rewards kick, kick, kick along type donkey ponies, who need nagging by riders terrible legs up to and over every single fence? I much prefer to see one who is keen to jump myself and i don't mean bombing into fences, just looking forward to them!

[sarahp]

waterford - I'm not anti waterfords in the right place - daughter (when teenage) used them on two of her big horses for extra brakes when neither would tolerate anything with a curb - but I'm interested to see you say that some ponies who are happy with them will not tolerate a french link - which has neither a straight mouthpiece nor a nutcracker action. I would have thought the two were much allied from the horses's point of view, although the waterford stronger, with being very flexible in the mouth.

[waterford]

SarahP, as it is i was surprised myself at how much content and relaxed a couple of ponies have been in the waterford mouthpiece. Albeit, a snaffle bit as far as the side pieces go, we have not tried any other sort and don't wish to. But yes, we have used these successfully and worked with our dentist and bitting people to achieve a very happy pony or 2. So ours use these for working hunter classes. They do not require them for breaks, or dragging their heads into awkward positions, they simply suit the mouthpiece.

So to be told, we will be penalised for making our ponies happy, some what rattles me!

Would this judge prefer we made the ponies unhappy, in a simple eggbutt nut cracker action snaffle? Just to please her/him.

Maybe judges should ask, before proceeding to place because they may well be wrong! I can't stand swales, or wilkies, but if it suits the pony what is the problem? You can always tell a very strong pony anyway, you don't need to pop one in a snaffle to see, if you know your onions you can spot a strong pony a mile away, irrelevant of what is in its mouth, surely? And if not, you should not be judging and wasting peoples time and money!

[sarahp]

But a french link doesn't have a nutcracker action, that is what interested me about your post! As I said, I'm not anti waterfords, both our very sensitive horses were very happy in then and wouldn't have tolerated anything they weren't, believe me! One a snaffle and one a gag. Bitted in conjunction with our SJ trainer who is VERY experienced and now well known, and knew both horses and daughter well.

Anyway, how can a judge tell if the bit in a mouth has a waterford mouthpiece without opening the pony's mouth and looking inside and I'm not sure that is allowed nowadays? puddledub?

[whydo]

Interesting comments.

puddledub i agree with you. Our pony has not been the easiest and it has taken us a couple of years of great patience with him, and now all of sudden he is coming right. He does obtain good style and way of going marks, but loses the marks on his bit. hence my question why do whp rules state any suitable bridle....
It would be nice to have a list of bits acceptable and a penalty score next to them if you use certain ones.

Again another argument of mine is that a lot of mouth pieces are disguised as an ordinary snaffle, but lots of severe bits are being used, so how can the judge tell what mouth piece they have in.

[waterford]

SarahP, we tried french link snaffles, still unhappy pony, totally. Tried bitless even, no good. Can't do showing in them anyway, tried Myler too. Waterford snaffle, lovely happy pony. So why on earth not?.

We don't possess strong ponies and would really hate to be penalised for doing what is right by our animals, why should we?

It's not a black and white subject, bitting and judges need to stop seeing it as such, it's not fair and unless the pony is obviously too strong to do a days hunting, then do not judge as if it is, out of order and a waste of money and actually shows a judges ignorance, to different ponies, having different bitting requirements.

If the pony goes well, is happy and does it's job right, im sorry but there should be no problem, as i said if it is clearly strong and requiring a bit for safety reasons, then fine - go ahead and penalise! Other wise a judge could atleast take a second to find out why a certain bit is in use.

You can actually tell if a bit has a waterford mouthpiece, without looking inside, if it fits correctly and you know what they look like, but from the sounds of it, Puddledub her seems to think the waterford is an actual bit, not a mouthpiece!

[sarahp]

No reason why not if pony is happy. I'm just fascinated by the mechanics, no reflection on your pony but I'd love to find a reason why lots of joints are fine for him but just two aren't! I like to be able to understand the reason for things!

What defines a snaffle is the action of a single rein directly to the bit ring, with no curb or poll action - thus you can tell a snaffle from looking at what is on the outside of the pony - but they can come with many and various different mouthpieces. I don't remember being able to tell ours were waterfords from the outside waterford, not that it mattered to us. One was a waterford snaffle.

whydo - I can't see a list of penalty scores for bits working because different judges will have differing opinions on the matter.

[waterford]

I really have no answer to give to that SarahP, why these 2 have liked these more than other mouth pieces, maybe the feel? Who knows, but i can see clearly at the edge of the mouth that it is a waterford.

Either way i shall not be changing their mouthpieces, i just hope the ignorance of some judges will change instead, a happy pony to me is of paramount importance, not the up their own view of a judge, im sorry but it rattles me, they aren't the ones who own or know the pony, they aren't the ones going through every bit on the planet and spending mega bucks with specialists to find what really suits each mouth, so unless a judge is prepared to open their mouths and find out why a certain bit, or indeed mouthpiece is being used, then maybe they should not judge (the bit, not the class).

Just presuming a pony is strong, is not enough reason to dump it down the line, infact our strongest pony is ridden in a happy mouth, french link. Odd? Maybe. Works? Definitely. You just have to know how to ride it and respect it totally.

[sageandonion]

The key word is "suitable". Judging by the way of going of many ponies and the riders aboard, many bits are very unsuitable and a tonne of iron is not only unattractive but shows the lack of schooling of both pony and rider.

If a judge finds a bit unsuitable for whatever reason, then I applaud the shifting down the line, in fact I would encourage all judges to do it a lot more often.

[whydo]

How would a judge know if it is unsuitable? They don't know how a pony will go in different bit / mouth piece

I must be way out of touch, as i always thought jnr workers was for a pony that would take a child safely out hunting for the day. So if it is mannerly and going well and the child is in complete control, why penalise it for not being in a traditional snaffle

[waterford]

Exactly, the judge doesn't know if it is suitable or not. They put down something because they don't like it, it's not on! I dont like traditional snaffles, but i wouldn't dump a pony because i dont like the action of the bit!

Suitable bit is just that, suitable for that pony and should be judged as such. The workers classes, are poorly judged most of the time anyway, tired of seeing half dead animals booted around a course- they certainly would not give a good days hunting!

[why do]

waterford i totally agree.

[waterford]

Why do, i wish the judges agreed ;D

[waterford]

Sageandonion, a question.

Only yesterday you was in awe, of a dressage person achieving massive scores, with a tonne of iron work in its mouth. So, to see your comment here, is somewhat baffling. Would that dressage score then, have been so high, would that dressage test have been so fantastic, had the rider taken that horse in the ring with a simple snaffle?

This is a totally genuine question, no dig intended just trying to see where you are coming from, as it seems a little bit one for one, one for the other

[sageandonion]

Waterford, I am not going to bother to try to compare one of our top class riders and her horse currently holding the UK and international % record and tipped to achieve an Olympic gold medal, to a WHP ridden in a severe bit by your average rider. That is beyond ridiculous.

[hunting]

I agree that strong bits should be penalised to a certain extent, after all if you struggle to hold a pony around a course without the aid of a strong bit then there is little hope on the hunting field! I would much rather see a pony looking for the next fence than one with its head strapped to its chest during a round because of its bit.. To clarify, that is not aimed at anyone specifically, just what I have always thought when I have watched WHP classes

[waterford]

But surely, she being a top notch rider and all that, why does she need so much metal work? And if her horse is so perfectly well schooled, can he not perform in a snaffle? that is my question. Also i'm sorry, but whilst she maybe able to perform dressage, maybe she would not be able to do compete in the showring?

Who knows, i don't know the lady myself, i do agree she is talented, in the dressage ring but there are some VERY talented riders, in the working hunter crowd. I find that statement of yours rather belittling.

So, could she and her very well schooled horse, not have performed so perfectly in a snaffle?

Hunting, i do agree to an extent, as i said before if a horse is too strong etc, place accordingly, no one wants to take an out of control/tanking horse out hunting, do they?

[hunting]

But surely the bit in a horse's mouth is partly what defines it as strong or not? I am not so naive as to think that any horse can be ridden in a plain snaffle (ideal world ) but I have managed to school my horse from being in a 3 ringed gag to hunting in a french link snaffle, which makes me think this could be true of some WHPs. Again, this isn't aimed at anyone and I do agree that you should be allowed to justify your bit choice to the judge.. Also think this would ensure people knew exactly what was going in their horses' mouths, and what action it has speaking of dressage, the horse will have competed in a snaffle in the lower levels, but the complexity of some movements at higher levels mean a double bridle can more easily differentiate between rein signals given

[sarahp]

Just what I was going to say about bits hunting, the double is a far more refined item of communication than a snaffle so from that point of view she should obtain better marks in a double than doing the same test in a snaffle - NOT because it is stronger but because it gives far more subtle and varied communication with the horse. And I agree with S&O, dressage at that level is a completely different ball game to doing WHP, I don't know how you can even think of comparing the two.

[sometime]

I think any snaffle or possibly pelham with two reins would be suitable to me as a showing bit including a waterford mouthpiece snaffle what I hate are swales and gags on childrens ponies for any competition including showjumping. I am not keen on roundings on pelhams either if the child cannot manage the double reins then a suitable snaffle would be my preferred choice.
I am with waterford on one thing though,my highland is pretty much a kickalong type but goes much better in her waterford as she has a thick tongue and prefers a lot of movement round it than something fixed across her tongue

[GinaGeo]

The other thread regarding Charlotte Dujardin, the dressage rider you refer to, shows that she competed very sucessfully in the show ring before her dressage career - she won at HOYS four times! Maybe not with Valegro, but then I'd hardly expect a top class Show horse to be scoring that sort of score in the Grand Prix Dressage ring.

In dressage it is still legal to ride at Grand Prix in a snaffle, but a double offers more refinement of the aids for the advanced movements- which she executed beautifully.

Regarding bits, I don't think a pony is a suitable hunting pony, if a child requires a huge amount of metal work to control it in a contained environment on their own. I'd hate to think of the danger to themselves, and the rest of the field on the hunting field, if they couldn't sucessfully stop in an arena!

I fully understand that each horse has it's preference. My horse, loves his single jointed snaffle, I have no idea why, when his mouth conformation should suit a lozenge or french link better. I'm a bit non- plussed on Waterfords, I do think if them as a short term schooling aid, but if your horse accepts thm fair enough. I thought the same about the loose ring snaffle I use - it was just an experiment that he liked.

ETA: I have also schooled my horse to hunt in his snaffle, when he previously had a nasty Myler affair or a vile three ring gag. He was previously labelled, as a non-snaffled mouthed horse which I stupidly believed. It took awhile but we've done it. I also SJ and event in it too.

[waterford]

Yes, i know what you mean. BUT a suitable bit is a suitable bit and anyone who knows horses, regardless of what metal they have in, can see a horse who is strong (too strong) Surely.

As for a child not being able to control an animal out hunting, ours manage very well in a bendy black rubber bit, however the pony was not happy. Happy in the waterford. So again, any suitable bit.

Yes, i read after she had shown, but had already said i didn't know her, good on her. But the very patronizing attitude of some, that a meer WHP rider is no where near as good, well what can i say! You don't have to be achieving top dressage marks to be a fantastic rider, infact, alot of fantastic riders will never get their chance to shine, they may well be stuck in our working hunter rings and be perfectly capable riders still, not AVERAGE!

Is a waterford snaffle, a huge amount of metal work GinaGeo? I don't think so ? Plain cavesson noseband and no martingale to boot?

[sometime]

Mine has only a cavesson and no martingale too she is very happy in her waterford she hates a single jointed bit and isnt too happy about frenchlink or cherry rolers either she has been in her waterford for about 10 of her 12 ridden years and has never had a problem in her mouth. As to dressage we can but aspire to great things and like everything else there is only room for one at the top it would be lovely to be near that top but it isnt for everyone

[sarahp]

It wasn't meant to be patronising, just factual. WHP is a showing class which requires neither the jumping ability of a top SJ (and I'm talking top here, the equivalent of Charlotte D) nor the flat ridden ability of a top dressage rider. There are many showing riders who have progressed to the top of the affiliated disciplines over the years - I'd add Jennie L-C although I'm pretty sure she competed in lots of disciplines in parallel including showing, and her later GP dressage horses have jumped and evented too.

[waterford]

I KNOW the working hunter class itself, doesn't require the skill of dressage at that level, what i am saying is it doesn't mean the rider/s are not talented! I bet there are many really, really decent riders in those classes and just because they may not need certain skills in the ring, it doesn't mean they are average riders!

This is all making show riders all sound naff quite frankly. Is that what people really think? Whilst i agree there are some riders, in the workers classes who shouldn't be let loose with certain bits there are a d**n sight more, who know what they are doing!

Anyway, back to suitable bits - if it is right for the horse imo it is right for the class, a good judge can sniff out a pony who is taking the pee, one who can't shouldn't be judging a horses body language is enough to tell what it would be like out hunting regardless of the metal in its mouth. It would be nice if judges opened their mouths and asked, but wont happen!

Infact, as our waterford snaffle, appears to be a plain old loose ring snaffle to the untrained eye, we do feel sometimes dumped down the line, because it is not a pretty pelham with 2 reins. So perhaps look at it from that angle too.

[sageandonion]

Rather than 'feel' you are dumped down the line because of the waterford, why not ask the judge(s) her reason(s) for putting you further down. They may have nothing to do with the bit whatsoever and you can improve for next time.

I personally do not think a pelham is a pretty bit, quite ugly and I think a waterford has its place for certain horses/situations. One person may be put to the bottom of the line for incorrect use of the pelham (i.e. a lot use them to get the horses's head down to replace schooling) and a waterford can also be used for purposes for which it was never intended. A judge might think a bit is suitable for one particular horse but if it is being used for the wrong job and she can clearly see the horse is not schooled correctly and therefore the bit is inappropriate, she is right to place down the line.

[waterford]

Sageandonion. I was pointing out, the usual debate, about snaffles in open classes not being seen as correct. I have no gripes with most of our places and believe we deserve what we have been placed on the day, though i do feel snaffles are penalised more often than other bits in open classes. I don't feel pelhams are pretty, maybe a more "professional" look to some? Any equine on our yard would be easy to stop and control in a simple old fashioned snaffle. I know. But they wouldn't be happy in them, well 2 of the 3. The one who is happy with the bog standard snaffle, goes in one. I'm really not one for over bitting any animal and have schooled 2 of these out of gags, grackles and martingales.

They have proved safe in any given circumstance and will do busy sponsored rides etc in nothing but a head collar if asked. They use bitless bridles, for non competitive occasions, so i have no fears about them doing a course of 8 jumps. We have done our utmost at great expense, to ensure these are happy animals, so i would hope we wouldn't be put down, because of the PONIES choice of mouthpiece? That's all really.