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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 12, 2012 12:28:44 GMT
My welsh D has big fleshy lips and a big tongue. Inspite of loads of schooling he was falling out on the shoulder and had a tendency to go on his fore. My instructor and I felt it might be time to put him in a pelham to lighten his front and lift his shoulder. I put him in a mullen mouth pelham and at walk and trot he felt amazing-although a couple of times he put his tongue over the bit as I think the mullen mouth width was too thick. However, in canter he backed off it completely and wasn't keen to go forward. Any suggestions about what might suit him? (please note he isn't strong in anyway) Thanks
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 12, 2012 12:46:57 GMT
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Post by GinaGeo on Jul 12, 2012 13:49:58 GMT
I wouldn't normally contradict an instructor, but can't the lightening of the front end be done with lateral work and transitions as opposed to metal? If he wasn't going forward then the bit is too strong, or too much contact is being taken down the rein. What's he normally ridden in?
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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 12, 2012 14:23:52 GMT
I wouldn't normally contradict an instructor, but can't the lightening of the front end be done with lateral work and transitions as opposed to metal? If he wasn't going forward then the bit is too strong, or too much contact is being taken down the rein. What's he normally ridden in? After a year of lateral work and transitions in order to lighten the front it's just not as it should be. Having read alot from the benefits of a pelham by Heather Moffat and Enlightened Equitation, it was felt given my weak leg and his substantial build and stage that we should now try this to develop a correct way of going. He has been ridden recently in happy mouths to encourage forward which works but then he can start to lean. At the moment he is in a myler with a revolver which stops the leaning and has helped with the shoulder but not as well as the pelham. |
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Post by GinaGeo on Jul 12, 2012 14:42:04 GMT
Ahh Ok then. I'm not up to scratch with Heather Moffett's school of Enlightened Equitaion, but if you've tried the transitions and Lateral work with no success it might be a route to explore. I'd consider a ported pelham such as the Hartwell MM posted or even a Cambridge Pelham.
Have you tried the Neue Schule Verbidend? I know dressagey friend's of mine have used it with great success for heavier on the forehand type horses.
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Post by GinaGeo on Jul 12, 2012 14:43:54 GMT
An elastic curb chain has helped some in the past as well, although not legal as the curb chain on a double in dressage, a padded one would be though.
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Post by barron123 on Jul 12, 2012 15:37:59 GMT
i ride a cob like this and ended up using a double bridle , she doesnt put her tounge over and sits back alot more and no longer goes on the for x  x |
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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 12, 2012 16:23:11 GMT
Ahh Ok then. I'm not up to scratch with Heather Moffett's school of Enlightened Equitaion, but if you've tried the transitions and Lateral work with no success it might be a route to explore. I'd consider a ported pelham such as the Hartwell MM posted or even a Cambridge Pelham. Have you tried the Neue Schule Verbidend? I know dressagey friend's of mine have used it with great success for heavier on the forehand type horses. It was not too bad (had one on hire) - he isn't great with loose rings due to his fleshy lips (don't want to use bit guards in the ring) |
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Post by rubydoo on Jul 12, 2012 16:53:03 GMT
i have my sec c in a mullen mouth pelham , he goes great in it but if im a bit tense (in the show ring) i he gets his tonge over the bit , i put this down to me taking up the curb rein to tightly . if hes backing of in canter maybe ride of the snaffle rein in canter until he starts to except both reins . |
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Post by Julie(luke3) on Jul 12, 2012 18:07:25 GMT
My cob has a big fleshy mouth and also isn't strong. I ride him in a french link and he goes lovely in a french link pelham x
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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 12, 2012 20:33:47 GMT
My cob has a big fleshy mouth and also isn't strong. I ride him in a french link and he goes lovely in a french link pelham x I'm not too up on pelhams but someone on another thread said a link in the pelham defeats the purpose of the pelham - does anyone know anything about this? Just trying to get as many opinions/advice as possible. Thanks |
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Post by GinaGeo on Jul 12, 2012 21:12:30 GMT
Me again ;D
A link in a pelham, negates the curb pressure, rendering it as not a true pelham. If you imagine the action of a straight bar pelham, when the curb rein is used. It rotates the shank, this in turn puts pressure on the curb.
When there's a link, when the pressure is put on the curb rein, the joint will firstly collapse and wrap around the jaw, the rotation of the shank will then sort of cause the curb to come in sort of. It'll create a sort of "crushing triangle" between the shanks and the curb.
Although, as with any bit, some seem to go quite happilly in them. I don't like single jointed bits as a rule, but my horse does, so that's me told fair and square!
If you want to know the basic action of what a bit feels like, put your arm in front of you with a 90 degree angle at your elbow with your hand facing upwards. Position the bit there and use a friend to act as the rider, and use the reins. You'll have to fix the curb at the same tightness as you would on a horse. Then imagine how that would feel in your horse's mouth...
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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 12, 2012 21:21:57 GMT
Me again ;D A link in a pelham, negates the curb pressure, rendering it as not a true pelham. If you imagine the action of a straight bar pelham, when the curb rein is used. It rotates the shank, this in turn puts pressure on the curb. When there's a link, when the pressure is put on the curb rein, the joint will firstly collapse and wrap around the jaw, the rotation of the shank will then sort of cause the curb to come in sort of. It'll create a sort of "crushing triangle" between the shanks and the curb. Although, as with any bit, some seem to go quite happilly in them. I don't like single jointed bits as a rule, but my horse does, so that's me told fair and square! If you want to know the basic action of what a bit feels like, put your arm in front of you with a 90 degree angle at your elbow with your hand facing upwards. Position the bit there and use a friend to act as the rider, and use the reins. You'll have to fix the curb at the same tightness as you would on a horse. Then imagine how that would feel in your horse's mouth... Does that mean that with a joint it becomes a more severe bit? |
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 12, 2012 21:29:02 GMT
Not necessarily, just a different action, which will suit some and not others!
In any case, a double bridle will have a more refined action than a pelham, as you can use the separate bits independently of each other, it just depends on the level of schooling you are at and what you want to achieve.
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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 12, 2012 21:31:40 GMT
Not necessarily, just a different action, which will suit some and not others! In any case, a double bridle will have a more refined action than a pelham, as you can use the separate bits independently of each other, it just depends on the level of schooling you are at and what you want to achieve. Thanks Milliesmum - a pelham has been a bit of a leap for me so don't think I am anywhere near able to use a double. |
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Post by GinaGeo on Jul 12, 2012 21:32:14 GMT
I did reply, but it disapeard into cyber space when my t'internet conection failed. I basically said what Milliesmum said, although in more words - I can't tell a short story ;D
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 12, 2012 21:35:24 GMT
ginageo I wanted to say what you said about five posts ago, but I'm not so good at explaining things as you!!
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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 12, 2012 21:45:52 GMT
ginageo I wanted to say what you said about five posts ago, but I'm not so good at explaining things as you!! Great minds think alike then  |
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Post by Kaseyleigh on Jul 13, 2012 7:08:20 GMT
why not try a wilkie magic bit this has a port on it our traditional works wonders in this .
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 13, 2012 7:18:23 GMT
How will a wilkie help to lighten his forehand?
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Post by elmere on Jul 13, 2012 9:30:35 GMT
My novice has just been changed from an NS verbindend to a wilkie, he's another that tends to lean and go heavy on the forehand and he seems lighter in it. He's still only a baby and in the early stages of schooling but he goes flat when he's tired in the ring so we just need something that will help pick him up a bit at that point.
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 13, 2012 10:12:48 GMT
Don't get me wrong I do think wilkies have their place if used correctly but a lot use them as a short cut to bring a head in and that's only half the job if you get my meaning.
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Post by elmere on Jul 13, 2012 10:20:25 GMT
Yes I know that, bringing his head in isn't the problem, I don't mind pokey noses in novices but its very disappointing when he goes completely flat half way through his class as its not showing his true way of going.
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Post by GinaGeo on Jul 13, 2012 19:27:27 GMT
I wouldn't want to use a Wilkie in an attempt to lighten the front end. It's certainly not a route I would choose for any of mine. I'd rather flat and pokey nosed for a youngster than using a Wilkie to get - often - a false outline. I'd rather be down the line up in the Show ring, but have a youngster that's snaffle mouthed and working basically correctly. But that's just me ;D
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Post by elmere on Jul 13, 2012 21:31:20 GMT
I wouldn't want to use a Wilkie in an attempt to lighten the front end. It's certainly not a route I would choose for any of mine. I'd rather flat and pokey nosed for a youngster than using a Wilkie to get - often - a false outline. I'd rather be down the line up in the Show ring, but have a youngster that's snaffle mouthed and working basically correctly. But that's just me ;D Well thats just something we'll have to agree to disagree on he will easily go back into his NS in a few weeks time if I wish. |
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 13, 2012 21:52:06 GMT
I wouldn't want to use a Wilkie in an attempt to lighten the front end. It's certainly not a route I would choose for any of mine. I'd rather flat and pokey nosed for a youngster than using a Wilkie to get - often - a false outline. I'd rather be down the line up in the Show ring, but have a youngster that's snaffle mouthed and working basically correctly. But that's just me ;D Well thats just something we'll have to agree to disagree on he will easily go back into his NS in a few weeks time if I wish. I think it depends on HOW you are using a wilkie, if the foundations are there they can be useful but it's when they are used as a short cut that they create problems. So I can see where both of you are coming from. |
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Post by elmere on Jul 13, 2012 22:14:09 GMT
Well the foundations are there because he can go really well in a nice outline striding out well but then he gets tired...  |
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Post by lisadundee on Jul 13, 2012 23:22:43 GMT
Bombers happy tongue Pelham or universal
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Post by GinaGeo on Jul 14, 2012 18:28:42 GMT
We shall agree to disagree Elmere My youngster tends to die on me as well sometimes - he's getting better now he's getting fitter though. He managed to work consistently, with breaks, for a whole 30mins in my dressage lesson the other day - result! Sorry for the tangent OP! Back to the point, is your horse very responsive to the aids, or does he drop behind the leg given the opportunity? If a horse drops behind the leg it's virtually impossible for them to be light in front. I was pondering it, whilst riding my youngster who can drop behind if I let him. When he's responding instantly and is in front of the leg, he lifts and stays light. If I have to ask him more than once or nag him he drops behind the contact and feels heavy. It was reinforced in my mind when I was chatting to my instructor, dressage rider/trainer/judge and she said that the majority of horses at lower level dressage are behind the leg and are being held up by their rider. It certainly gave me food for thought and I'm back to sharpening up my tansitions, one slight squeeze should be all it takes for an upwards transition and the stopping of upper body movement for a downward transition. It may be totally irrelevant to you, and is really just another rambling! |
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Post by robrocksforsure on Jul 14, 2012 18:42:42 GMT
We shall agree to disagree Elmere My youngster tends to die on me as well sometimes - he's getting better now he's getting fitter though. He managed to work consistently, with breaks, for a whole 30mins in my dressage lesson the other day - result! Sorry for the tangent OP! Back to the point, is your horse very responsive to the aids, or does he drop behind the leg given the opportunity? If a horse drops behind the leg it's virtually impossible for them to be light in front. I was pondering it, whilst riding my youngster who can drop behind if I let him. When he's responding instantly and is in front of the leg, he lifts and stays light. If I have to ask him more than once or nag him he drops behind the contact and feels heavy. It was reinforced in my mind when I was chatting to my instructor, dressage rider/trainer/judge and she said that the majority of horses at lower level dressage are behind the leg and are being held up by their rider. It certainly gave me food for thought and I'm back to sharpening up my tansitions, one slight squeeze should be all it takes for an upwards transition and the stopping of upper body movement for a downward transition. It may be totally irrelevant to you, and is really just another rambling! Funnily enough - had a lesson with a dressage person who said I have done so many transitions with him he is so back on his hocks the forward has gone out of the window. We now need to reestablish forward with sharper reactions. We are back to lunging and/or riding with a schooling stick and over the last two rides much better. Really getting good extension on the trot and I have developed zero tolerance to breaking his canter. He is starting to think more forward. Think I will stick to this but will soon try him in a hartwell pelham with elastic curb for the ring. It's been great to get all the different opinions and thoughts, thankyou guys. |
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