Like a snaffle but not a snaffle for shows??

[flo1]

The Baucher/hanging cheek

The Hanging Cheek is also known as the Baucher, it uses pressure on the poll as the cheek piece has an extra ring above the snaffle ring where the bridle cheek pieces are attached to, this poll pressure encourages the horse to lower the head and come on to the bit especially useful for horses that have a high head carriage. . It is a fixed cheek bit, which may be useful for horses that are unsure of the bit, as it doesn’t move around too much in the mouth. It may prove a suitable alternative to a snaffle if you could do with a little help to bring the head down.

taken from 'The Horse Bit Shop'

[lojo10]

previously continental snaffle second ring and since the weekend have moved it to the snaffle ring. He isn't strong to ride it was just for that bit more control when he decided to nap which is becoming less frequent now my daughter wont let him.

[GinaGeo]

Flo1 I don't think we're going to agree on this, so if you will, I shall agree to disagree with you. I don't see how a hanging cheek can exert poll pressure without the rein being fixed. As it happens I don't like how the hanging cheek makes many horse's go, everything I've ridden in them seem fixed in the contact. Including my own when he's normlly nice, loose and flexible through the neck and body in his loose ring.

I'm not totally against stronger bits, when they're truly needed in the short term and are chosen for function as opposed to aethestetics. But I don't think they should be seen as a short cut to fix schooling bigger issues.

ETA: Sorry OP for taking this off thread.

[sageandonion]

As OP is sorted, may I divert.

For those of you not wishing to achieve the fixed, mechanical, head down or leavered look which is so very of the 'in denial, know no better era', may I suggest you try the KK Sprenger WH bit. This is a loose ring, warm metal lozenge snaffle which has a little roller in the middle and both my ponies (one poll low though damage using the wilkie as a baby and one generally liking to be above the bit so completely different) have taken to and seem really happy in. This is also dressage legal.

[flo1]

You may disagree as you will it's an open forum after all

But it doesn't make your opinion correct.

After checking with a friend who is a loriner, I can still say that hanging cheeks exert poll pressure.

And SAO just because your baby was ridden incorrectly in a Wilkie doersn't mean that everyone else's will be...talk about making assumptions...really!

[lulah]

Aug 6, 2012 15:28:55 GMT haggismarmite said:

I hate to stick my head over the parapet on this debate, always avoid it, however can I just ask how much poll pressure does the baucher/hanging cheek exert vs a wilkie or wilkie type as the hanging cheek is more politically acceptable and (may be wrong) I think is dressage legal at pony club where the wilkie isn't but doesn't it have a similar use?

the hanging cheek has no poll pressure

[lulah]

ginageo i am with you

it is physics. thier is no possible way the hanging cheek excerts poll pressue. if you use one, or know anyone that uses one, look at the bit in the horses mouth when thiers no contact. then look when a contact is taken up. the bit does not rotate or pivot in any way.


lojo10 -

is this the same pony that your previously started a thread about being too lazy?

if it is then a stronger bit is in no way going to help !!!!

it sounds like your daughter needs to use way more legs.

[sageandonion]

Aug 7, 2012 12:36:10 GMT flo1 said:

You may disagree as you will it's an open forum after all

But it doesn't make your opinion correct.

After checking with a friend who is a loriner, I can still say that hanging cheeks exert poll pressure.

And SAO just because your baby was ridden incorrectly in a Wilkie doersn't mean that everyone else's will be...talk about making assumptions...really!

Yep it most certainly does. Its the bit that is the problem.

[sarahp]

There are opinions, of which everyone is entitled to their own, and there are facts, which are not a matter not of opinion but of science, physics, mechanics or some such. The action of bits is the latter, a question of factual mechanics. I'm with GG, lulah and S & O on this one.

[tabbyx]

Sarahp, I didn't intentionally single you out, when I was typing my reply you were the only person to have replied, I didn't know anyone else had replied, so I apologize.

As the op did not specify what the problem was and from what she wrote led me to believe that the pony was strong in the ring, now I don't use a wilkie at home unless doing fast work or cross country schooling or ponies are being hacked in company by small children. However in the ring with a small child and a novice pony I'd rather use a wilkie for my jockeys piece of mind as I have had some very nervous jockeys on board. Personally(100% my personal opinion, don't have a go at me for it!) I suggested the wilkie as I think it is better for a small child to have complete control of the pony and the ponies mouht to be kept soft than have the ponies mouth pulled about in a normal snaffle.

Although now op has explained the problem I wouldn't advise a wilkie as it won't sort the situation, for now I would advise a small adult or experienced teenager to school the pony correctly and bit wise, although changing bits won't fix the situation, I would suggest a fulmer snaffle, preferably in a french link or lozenge as they tend to be more accepted than a jointed snaffle, the cheek pieces on these bits give the jockey a little more in the way of steering, you can get them with nice short cheek pieces from Fylde.

[sarahp]

Accepted, thank you, I'm not the only one with the same views. We shall have to agree to differ on bits!

[tbmare]

I kinda get the feeling that the original poster is very novice in the showing world .. and even though the wilkie is a strong bit it is milder than the one she is currently using and if this gave control to the jockey.. then yes i would go for it... i do for our section a...more because he crosses his jaw and can evade his bit by dong so..not as easy using the wilkie..more control. That is hs only vice.
Schooling yes would help... but again not everyone wants to go top level and perhaps only want a tinkle on the showing side... i see many a novice pony and horse with novice rider gong out fo the first time... but rememeber we all start at the begining at some point.. i think you are reall lucky to have a good school master type for your first pony!!! and the showing side can seem a bit of a mine field when you first go out.
I alway did sj for years and only moved over to the showing side about 5 yrs ago.. and i know myself how hard it was to find a suitable class that suited both me and horse... luckily my instructer after teaching me to sit up straighter and getting rid of all my bad riding habit she told me what classes were suitable for my riding abililty and we went well in local championship and equally well at qualifing shows such as uk show/foc and the likes.
but without her help i am sure i would never have got as far!

[sageandonion]

I definitely do not agree with you tbmare. Schooling is vital what ever level you ride at and a bit should not be used to replace this. Schooling is even more important for a novice and a child for it will keep them safe, prevent accidents and make the whole ride more pleasant. A novice with a wilkie is horrifying for me and will ruin that pony.

[Guestless]

Aug 7, 2012 9:22:47 GMT said:

For those of you not wishing to achieve the fixed, mechanical, head down or leavered look which is so very of the 'in denial, know no better era', may I suggest you try the KK Sprenger WH bit.

That interested me but I don't think I could ever justify spending that amount of money on a bit unless I knew 100% my pony was going to like it. I do like the Neue Schule bits which are thankfully a bit cheaper.

[sageandonion]

Yes I agree with you guestless. Fortunately I was able to try a friend's and I used it on my mare who tends to go above the bit, hollow and want to drag herself along. It really helped. So I kept my eye out on ebay and managed to get a nearly new one for about £25.

I just tried it on my gelding who likes to go poll low and thunder along on his forehand, exactly the opposite to my mare. I worked for him too! Now I have one bit between the two.

I have neue schule and I must say this bit is far superior in quality and, as it works so very well for me, I would pay the new price. I think you should ask around for a borrow of one or otherwise hire whilst keeping an eye on ebay.

[shellywell]

Well known fact that hanging cheek exerts poll pressure, whether some of you choose to accept it or not.
This bit works for some ponies as it doesn't have too much tongue pressure, others hate it for this reason. I have never ridden a horse in one and felt happy - I always feel that the horse is complying due to the POLL PRESSURE and not because he/she has truelly given at the poll. Totally different concept.
Incidently, a loose ring fulmer snaffle with drop noseband exerts the same poll pressure as a double bridle......too tight a nose band can also exert poll pressure.......oh and while I am at it, too tight a browband can cause tension at the poll......food for thought.

But back to the bit argument

Anything that has a ring to attach the cheekpieces above the "rein ring" will exert poll pressure, a normal ring will exert pressure on the bars of the mouth, different mouthpieces will exert different pressures on the tongue, ports will effect the roof of the mouth, as does the simple snaffle - when both rings are pulled the tongue is pinched and the roof of the mouth gets a punch from the nutcracker action, not to mention the sides of the mouth also being pinched.....It is no wonder that some owners are choosing to ride in bits of rope.

Good hands are the only thing standing between your pony and a hard mouth.

The pony in the OP post, when ridden in a dutch gag (aka continental snaffle) has poll pressure applied because the cheek pieces are attached to the top rings and the reins attached to the first ring, (nb these bits should always be ridden with 2 reins if more leverage is required.) therefore a bulcher/hanging cheek snaffle may be worth a try, however the size of the dutch gag and the number of rings extending down the mouth may mean that you'll get better reults from a fulmer snaffle, either fixed or loose ring (aka austrailian snaffle) this may give the best result - the "bars" of the snaffle will stop the pony crossing his jaw and should help with the napping. And of course there is the wilkie.
Schooling and manners will come with work, napping will improve with your daughters confidence which will improve with less napping - a round robin I'm affraid.....

There is a (large) school of thought that thinks that a stronger bit will produce quicker results (slowing down) and therfore lead to softer hands in child riders - old pics from pony club shows kids riding in kimblewicks - how many of your children ride in a kimblewick nowadays??

If a stronger bit yields a quicker response SURELY this is kinder to the pony and teaches the child not to lean.
Bits are a minefield and everyone has their own opinion, (which is fairly obvious looking at this post, lol) So, OP, speak to your instructor or arrange a lesson with a "known" showing person near you, and try to borrow a few to try :-)

[sarahp]

My daughter, now in her 30s, rode her C in a Kimblewick - SOMETIMES! When she started riding him he was big for her, and needed extra brakes for some activities so was in it for hunting and XC. Otherwise, everything was done in a snaffle, and lessons and schooling would never be done in the stronger bit, where would that get you? This was before wilkies were invented, and I wouldn't have used one of those anyway, the Kimblewick has a different action more equivalent to a pelham with roundings but tidier.

[GinaGeo]

I've been having a look at various thoughts regarding the hanging cheek and it seems the bitting experts cannot agree on its action either - so what chance to we stand! I was never taught that the full cheek/fulmer when used with fulmer loops, exerted poll pressure either - but that the purpose was to hold the mouthpiece, more upright thus stabilising the contact.

The diagrams on this site explain my thought process well, and the diagrams are better than I could produce! - my AS level Physics taught me that for a lever to work there had to be a pivot. And without a lever there could be no downward (poll) pressure exerted.

bitbankaustralia.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/the-truth-about-the-baucher-snaffle-bit-rattling-the-cage/

In some certain circumstances I agree that a stronger bit is acceptable, I don't think everyday riding is one of them. I am going to the first Hound Exercise of the year today and my horse will be in a double bridle, as he has to be listening to me and I need to be in control. 99% of the time I will be using the snaffle rein only. A kimblewicke's a good compromise and I will be digging mine out when the proper hunting season gets under way so I don't have so may reins to worry about.

But, it does not teach the correct contact. A kimblewick in my opinion shouldn't be used in the same way as a snaffle. It should be used only when you're wanting an effect as a constant contact will result in constant curb pressure. Light hands it may produce but surely it won't teach a good contact or feel down the reins?

[sarahp]

And that the side pieces of a fulmer helped with steering on a young horse, and prevented any chance of the bit being pulled through the mouth. I totally agree about pivots and levers too, and I did Maths A level many moons ago!

Daughter was 10yo when the C came back (I bred and old him, then bought him back broken for her to ride) so not really ready for double reins!