Like a snaffle but not a snaffle for shows??

[lojo10]

hi please could you advise me on what bits are allowed in any novice classes. My daughter (AGE 8) and pony (12.2) have been riding in a continental snaffle on the 2nd ring and are now using it as a snaffle. However sometimes he can be a tinker and a snaffle is not strong enough. Just wondering what else we would be allowed to use if any like a snaffle but not a snaffle??

[tabbyx]

Have you tried a wilkie?
still a mild bit but gives a bit more breaks for the littlies without ruining the ponies mouths.

[sarahp]

I think you will find opinions vary on that one! The debate has been had many times before.

[GinaGeo]

I know we've differed on the subject before tabby, and I still agree to disagree with you; but I personally, wouldn't class a wilkie as a mild bit.

If the rules say a snaffle to be used, then in my opinion a snaffle should be used. I class snaffles as the only bits that are legal under British Dressage rules up to Novice level.

In what way does the pony become too strong?

[lojo10]

he occasionally naps to the gate of the menage, or a corner of it where he can seee other horses . I know this is more bad manners but he has always been in a stronger bit, and it just gives my daughter that bit more control.

[tabbyx]

sarahp, what I mean is that because the bit acts on the poll before the mouth it won't make the mouth hard, then as child progresses and pony's schooling furthers then the bit can be changed to an eggbutt or similar.
I would prefer all ponies to go correctly for the littlies in a simple eggbutt or loose ring snaffle but some ponies will take the mick and need to learn that they aren't allowed to do as they please and that they will do as their little jockey wishes. Personally I'd prefer to have a happy child and happy pony that has been ridden in a wilkie in the ring than a scared child and a pony with a hard mouth that has learnt to set itself in the ring.

[GinaGeo]

You know what I'm going to say ;D Schooling, schooling, schooling and lots of lessons. Said pony is rather taking the pee I had one too, charming little devil, but she taught me to ride. Once your daughter cracks this issue, she'll be able to call herself a rider and not a passenger.

If I were you, I'd get small pony on the long lines with a snaffle in his mouth and ensure he knows that it's wrong to nap. Then once that mounds conquored you can get your daughter back on board with a good instructor who will teach her how to ride the pony through it.

When I was your daughter's age I had a small pony who perfected the shoulder drift out of jump to a tee. Initially, I sat there and let her. After a while I realised that if I got after her and really rode her straight she'd jump it fine. I don't think I've had a horse successfully runout at a fence since. What I'm saying is, if she learns how to correct the issue with good riding and perseverance now she'll be a better rider for it in the future At the time I just wanted a push button pony like all the other kids had, I'm so grateful now that I didn't!

[snowflake]

Knew the Wilkie topic would come up soon enough?

Have to say, hands up (prepares to be shot down!), we used a Wilkie in the riders first year of first ridden. Purely because the pony used to take the mick & try to nap. As the jockey got older, & we started having more lessons the pony then had an Eggbutt snaffle. Jockey became more confident & then starts to 'be in charge' of the pony meaning a milder bit can be used.

Tbh it's your personal preference whether you use a Wilkie or not, ask a producer or instructor & ask for their opinion. May be worth having some lessons in different bits too, to see which your pony/jockey gel best with.

[lojo10]

thanks for the advice, my daughter is becoming more confident now and will ride through and win some of his naps, but not when we first got him.

[sarahp]

Why single me out tabby? I'm not the only one who doesn't like them! And the reason I don't is because they make the pony go in an incorrect manner, so that later on it would have to be schooled out of that first if you do eventually want it to go correctly, which is always more difficult than getting it right in the first place.

[Tralala]

Have you tried a fulmer cheek snaffle? You can get tiny ones with shorter, more descreet cheeks for the littlies and the ones with loose rings are good as the pony finds it more difficult to set against it, and the cheeks help to keep the pony straight so it is more difficult for it to drop its shoulder or nap, and easier for the child to control direction of pony.

[carrie17491]

Aug 5, 2012 21:59:57 GMT lojo10 said:

he occasionally naps to the gate of the menage, or a corner of it where he can seee other horses . I know this is more bad manners but he has always been in a stronger bit, and it just gives my daughter that bit more control.

correct me if i am wrong but a change of bit won't stop the pony napping

[bow1607]

I wouldn't advise a wilkie for an adult or a child.
(I just don't like them)
Imo, I would advise lessons from a good instructor because no bit will stop a pony napping, that has to be dealt with correctly with the right guidence........not by chucking a stronger bit in.

[lulah]

maybe try a baucher/hanging cheek?

all though schooling is the only real fix.

[Deleted]

I am getting ponies in for schooling that have been ruined by the wilkie - they cause so many problems - not going on the bit - evading the bit ... to name two

[haggismarmite]

I hate to stick my head over the parapet on this debate, always avoid it, however can I just ask how much poll pressure does the baucher/hanging cheek exert vs a wilkie or wilkie type as the hanging cheek is more politically acceptable and (may be wrong) I think is dressage legal at pony club where the wilkie isn't but doesn't it have a similar use?

[GinaGeo]

The hanging cheek exerts no poll pressure as the rein is not fixed. They steady the contact of some horses if they prefer the steadier contact, than say, an eggbutt or loose ring.

They are very different, the bit most combarable with the the wilkie would be a dutch gag.

[ilovenatives]

Although a change of bit wont stop a pony napping something with cheeks will help your daughter to be able to get the pony out of the corner . We have a shetland who used to nap to the gate or the corner and found that a hanging cheek really helped my daughter to be able to get her out of the corner and going forward . It also gives better brakes than a plain snaffle . Or as has been suggested a fulmer snaffle . I would go for the mouth piece that the pony prefers , our shettie has a ported mouth piece as she has a fat tongue . Finding a bit that the pony liked has helped a great deal as well .
Have to agree that pony is taking the pee , ours did last year and its only now my daughter is a bit bigger and more confident that the pony has realised it must do what it is told and not tow her back to the gate .
Im not anti wilkie as such but i do think they stop a pony going forwards a bit so dont think it would help in this situation .
I know what you are going through as my daughter spent much of last year shetland wrestling and there were times i could have cheefully throttled the pony but you will get there in the end .
Good luck

[Deleted]

I do use the hanging cheek snaffle, my ponies love them and go well in them, I do use other bits too, depending on the pony.

[flo1]

Bits don't ruin mouths, hands do!

Comparing a Wilke snaffle to a Dutch gag is plain daft.

It's action is more similar to a Myler with hooks and although not dressage legal you don't hear anyone slating them.

The hanging snaffle does indeed use poll pressure, as much if not more than a wilkie does. The rein may not be fixed by a ring but as the main ring is held by the 'lever' attached to the cheekpiece the ring doesn't move so neither does the rein.
I'd much rather see a pony ridden proply in a Wilkie than see one being ragged about in a simple snaffle because the child can't stop it...that's what ruins ponies mouths!

[GinaGeo]

Have a read of this. The wilkie is not on here, but in action it works as the dutch gag works, with a shorter "shank". It pulls the bit up the mouth due to the leverage on the cheekpieces.

www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php

Whenever I've ridden in a baucher/hanging cheek, despite the bit being placed in the correct place in the mouth the cheekpieces sag. It is impossible for there to be poll action when the cheekpieces are not pulling downwards.

As it happens I would also consider the Myler you describe to be a gag in action.

[GinaGeo]

I agree that hands ruin mouths, but severe metal work doesn't help and nor does it teach a good contact.

[lojo10]

would a single jointed hanging snaffle be okay~ are they allowed / harsh on the pony??
Not that up on my bits

[jessandoscar]

Ignoring the usual wilkie discussion as I don't have a problem with them at all.

How about trying a hanging cheek or full cheek snaffle (that may help with steering)

[GinaGeo]

A single jointed hanging cheek would be fine. As a rule lozenges and french links are better accepted by ponies and they often go more sweetly in them, as they don't have the nutcracker action, saying that my own horse is happiest in a single jointed loose ring.

Agree that a full cheek might be useful for your daughter if the pony's napping.

[lojo10]

whats 'nutcracker' action- sorry to ask?

[sarahp]

Try them both on your own arm - with a single joint the bit can only "fold up" if the reins are used, causing what is called the nutcracker action with the bit hinging in the middle, closing the sides together and possibly hitting the roof of the pony's mouth with the joint. Many ponies are understandably not happy with this action! With two joints, as in a lozenge or french link, each side of the bit can act independently of each other just on the bars of the mouth as a bit should do.

IMHO too many people look first at a change of bit to solve any problem when in fact the best solution is elsewhere, most often instruction and/or schooling.

[sageandonion]

Aug 6, 2012 9:37:21 GMT sarahp said:

Why single me out tabby? I'm not the only one who doesn't like them! And the reason I don't is because they make the pony go in an incorrect manner, so that later on it would have to be schooled out of that first if you do eventually want it to go correctly, which is always more difficult than getting it right in the first place.

;D I shall refrain!

To the original poster only, try to have a small instructor in to school your pony with your little girl in mind. Resist the wilkie, it will ruin your pony for later when she is more confident and want to begin to school a little for herself.

[ilovenatives]

lojo what mouthpiece does the pony go happily in at present ? Maybe try a different bit with the same mouthpiece as he is happy in .
Some lessons with a good instructor can only do good as well
The instructor should be able to advise on the bit as well

[lojo10]

Thank you for the explanation of the nutcracker, understand perfectly now. H

He is in a continental snaffle second ring, since the weekend have moved it to the snaffle ring. He has been fine, he is not strong when riding normally in the menage. Just need the extra bit of reinforcement on the occasions he naps which to be honest is not very often these days.