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Post by greasedweasel on Oct 26, 2012 7:36:03 GMT
Bugger
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Post by gillwales on Oct 26, 2012 7:45:13 GMT
At least you know now and are able to make plans. From what you have said I would think you will have a foal on the floor next year. Remember, and I am sure your Vet will have told you, your mare will carry a foal she can give birth to. A first foal , especially from a young mare, takes longer to cook!
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Post by stormyskies on Oct 26, 2012 10:10:38 GMT
Oh my. I was readin through this hoping for a happy ending.
On the bright side, you now know for certain so that takes away the uncertainty. And you can make preparations. A foal is a joy to behold, but does bring a whole new set of worry and stress. She looks very healthy and robust so I wouldn't change too much what you have already been doing. The worry is not knowing exactly when she is due. I guess you need to speak to new yard owner and asertain if they have facilities for a birth and then a newborn, such as individual grazing. And get reading an excellent book clled 'From foal to full grown' by Janet Lorch. Don't panic about what to do with foal, cross that bridge when you come to it. Concentrate on keeping mum healthy and getting baby safely on the ground.
Good luck
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 10:33:54 GMT
I would seek solicitors advice and explain your situation - the first 1/2 hr is usually free! I would seek recompense, you have quite a responsibility on your hands now - which YOU did NOT plan.
Shout if you need me - I have been breeding for some 40 yrs - so I imagine I have come across most things. Don't be tempted to over feed - its a mistake a lot of novice breeders make, so long as she is on a well balance diet with vits etc - she should be fine - Don't let her get too fat!
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Post by arabellaphoenix on Oct 26, 2012 10:36:41 GMT
Just read all through your story and I really feel for you. I don't know if it is any reassurance or not but I bought my New Forest mare when she had just turned 2. Then found out about 10 months later she was in foal! She must have literally been covered days before we collected her. We were also not told she had been with colts. But she carried and gave birth with no problems as a young mum and was excellent with the foal. She was also quite mature looking like your mare. Best of luck x
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Post by wildnative on Oct 26, 2012 15:35:46 GMT
Thanks everyone.  My filly is looking well and my vet said that she is in excellent health. I had her flu/tetanus vaccinations restarted, as I had overlooked dates and they were out of date. Vet is coming back in 6 weeks to give her second flu/tet vaccination (whichever ones they get at the start of an initial course). He will also give her a tetanus booster when she is close to foaling. I also had him give her an EHV vaccination. IF there's time (and she doesn't foal beforehand), she will have another 2 EHV...or at LEAST another 1 before foaling. I've wormed her for tapeworm with a double dose of Strongid-P. The yard I have just moved her to has excellent facilities, so I will be able to have a stable for Mum and Baby. I will also be able to have individual turnout for them. The grazing at this new yard is a lot better in quality than the place she has just moved from, so Callie won't need any additional feeding but I'm thinking I'll need a supplement for her ? She "might" need fed after the foal has been born, as there will be no or very little nutritional value in the grass when the foal is born. The field she is in right now is a haylage field. The yard owner grows haylage for herself, and sells (in big quantities) to horse owners throughout the area. It's a big farm, within a private estate. The farm also has a large herd of Simmental cattle. The grazing is very well maintained. Grass management being second to none. All of the fencing is mains powered electric post and wire. The yard owner is also a highly experienced horse breeder (Sports Horses). Callie is a good doer. She isn't fat right now, but is well covered as you would expect to have a native breed looking going into winter. She spent the first 2 years of her life living on the New Forest, and she naturally gains and loses weight throughout the year as she would have done while she was living "wild". I'm slightly concerned that the grazing might be too rich for Callie, but that won't be a worry now that she is "cooking" and will be feeding a (Warmblood x New Forest) foal sometime soon. Looking at Callie right now, she clearly looks very pregnant. There's no change in udder development yet, teats still small and tight, but she does have a little ventral oedema right in front of her udder. I have asked everyone at the yard to look at Callie when they are there, and to contact me or the yard owner straight away if they see anything "not quite right". Not knowing her due date and having an estimation of between 5 - 9 months pregnant from my vet means I have to keep a very close eye on her incase something goes wrong or she starts to foal earlier than expected. My vet reassured me that native mares are "programmed" to cope well with foaling and looking after their newborn foals. Callie has come from generations (going back hundreds of years) of forest living, semi-feral New Forest ponies. She was born on the forest herself. I'm going to shut up now as I'm starting to ramble on too much. I really do appreciate everyone's help with this. I've only bred once before, but that was planned. My last pony didn't look as big as Callie is now, a month before she was due to foal. Last pony (also a reg New Forest), went to Lomondside Stud. Was covered on 29th and 31st May 2010 by a reg NF stallion. I lost her and her foal to grass sickness a month (approx) before she was due to foal. Jane, I wish you were nearby and could come over to have a look at Callie by casting your experienced eye over her and reassuring me that all is well. |
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Post by judyh on Oct 26, 2012 16:47:31 GMT
I would certainly take some legal advice.
I would think you have a very good case for compensation.
Good luck,keep us posted on the mare,foal and any progress with the selfish,careless YO.
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Post by wildnative on Oct 26, 2012 19:28:17 GMT
Here she is, photo taken yesterday when I brought her in for the vet to scan her. (Sorry about the quality. It was taken on my phone then cropped).  . I'm uploading more photos to photobucket to make an album from the day I bought her until present. |
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Post by elmere on Oct 26, 2012 19:57:53 GMT
Wow she's certainly on the larger side already especially for a maiden, agree with advise not to overfeed as she will only have trouble foaling when it comes to it if overweight, best to keep her out and as fit as possible. A feed balancer will support her and the foal nutritionally, as she is only growing still herself I would probably get her on some now but maybe a lo calorie one such as Baileys lo cal and then go onto a stud balancer nearer to her due date.
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Post by Louise Dixon on Oct 26, 2012 20:07:32 GMT
Well, at least you know now, and it sounds like you are at a super yard now. Try to keep your chin up.
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Post by wildnative on Oct 26, 2012 21:21:52 GMT
Thanks elmere.
This is why I was so worried about her size when I moved her last Saturday. She has ballooned in size just in the last month, and looks even bigger still now than she looked a week ago.
I'll get some Bailey's Lo-Cal for her.
Would you recommend taking her out for walks, maybe 2-3 times per week to keep her toned ? She isn't very active in the field.
We are within a country estate now and have miles of off road "hacking" within the grounds. She enjoyed her walk up to the main yard and back for the vet yesterday, even though the walk back to her field was in the dark.
Will she need anything else feed wise when her foal is born ?
I will have access to a stable for them for when baby arrives, and individual turnout until the foal is big enough to go out with Mum and quiet mares.
The shock factor has worn off now, and I'm actually looking forward to having the foal....even though it was unwanted.
I believe that WB x NF's make nice little sports/competition horses. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 21:45:44 GMT
I would give her topspec stud balancer, she looks well and hopefully will be fine, maiden mares are usually very good with their babies, but can be a little foal shy at first, just encourage her with gentle words and actions, keep an eye and make sure foaly sucks, I had one once drop child whilst grazing she never got down at all, it took me about 20 mins to persuade her that she was looking after it - not me! I have also had them foal with no udder, so keep an eye around tail area, that usually slackens off. So long as she is out, you shouldn't need to walk her, I would let her foal out on her own if you can then bring them both in at night, it cuts the risk of infection down, you also need iodine to pour/ spray on the navel stump as soon after foaling as you can.
You will be able to register with the nf society as a part bred.
Shout if you need me - I'm only on the end of the phone.
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Post by norwalk on Oct 27, 2012 0:22:03 GMT
Please give us regular updates!!! It sounds like you have good support at the new yard woth people experienced in breeding, so sure they will be monitoring as closely as you are! Good luck, and keep us posted please! |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 27, 2012 7:14:24 GMT
Having witnessed two maidens foaling - in the daytime both times, very unusual as the experienced ones seem to prefer about 4am - I'd second Jane's remarks, both on the mare being surprised by this strange thing that has appeared, and by the process itself, and in not necessarily showing any of the classic signs of foaling. I do try now to foal my maidens on their own - I'm lucky in having a tiny paddock that I use for them - as I have occasionally had an older steal a maiden's foal at birth - an experienced one wouldn't let it be taken, but a bemused maiden can. As Jane said, once "attached" to their foal, they normally look after them well.
My daughter first learned to ride with a lovely lady who taught on her daughter's outgrown ponies - Mulberry the 14.2hh was a TB x NF and a real smasher.
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Post by mardigras on Oct 27, 2012 9:16:12 GMT
The New forest society are brilliant with registering part breds. ;D
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Post by Guestless on Oct 27, 2012 11:19:10 GMT
The mares uterus size determines the foal size not the stallion. Without trying to panic the OP, the jury is still out on whether that is true or not. My own equine vet recommends never using a stallion that is more than a hand bigger than the mare. I have a friend who lost a foal which was too big for the mare when it was born (pony bought from a dealer and was unknowingly in foal at time of purchase) and I have heard of others. Having said that, at least a NF is a native and as such has a bit more substance than, say, a show pony and there is the old adage of "blood on bone" so there is every reason for things to be fine...but I would watch her carefully and have a vet on standby when the time is close in case you need some assistance. I also have a mare whose belly dropped within 2 weeks of being covered several years ago and the stud said they had seen a few maiden mares who seemed to prepare well in advance so showing early isn't uncommon. |
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Post by pencaedu on Oct 27, 2012 11:44:34 GMT
Whilst my daughter was doing work experience with our local equine vets, they had to cut a foal up to get it out of a mini shetland,as it was too big (already dead, obviously).
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 27, 2012 13:01:38 GMT
Whilst my daughter was doing work experience with our local equine vets, they had to cut a foal up to get it out of a mini shetland,as it was too big (already dead, obviously). Well, that's cheerful. How to give confidence to the OP. . . .! Wildnative, I need to come past your door in a couple of weeks and am happy to look in; offer some moral support. We foaled 25-30 per season at home, TB's and Arabs down to Welsh Mountain, but the bulk of our foaling were 'part-breds' to make Riding Ponies. (To add, these weren't all ours, but with five stallions at Public Stud, we often foaled for the owner, which saved them the stress and the mare/foal didn't have to travel when foalie was so young, to catch the foal heat.) Like Jane, my foaling knowledge is extensive and very practical. Who is your Vet? (PM me if you prefer) C. |
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Post by viking on Oct 27, 2012 14:17:54 GMT
A kind offer from Caroline,
and pencaedu, hardly a helpful comment under the circumstances.
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Post by hatman on Oct 27, 2012 14:35:09 GMT
My friend had a pony 12.2 who had been covered by a 16.1 stallion at her yard,we were shocked it was a planned covering. The pony foaled fine. My friend was worried as she lives on the yard and the ponys owner just came up in the day to sort her horses that she would end up having to deal with a difficult birth .
Looking forwards to the baby pictures next year
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Post by elmere on Oct 27, 2012 14:44:31 GMT
Whilst my daughter was doing work experience with our local equine vets, they had to cut a foal up to get it out of a mini shetland,as it was too big (already dead, obviously).  What was the point of this?! The only problem where I can see a mare having a struggle foaling is when the foal has broad shoulders and then they just need a little help pulling out but I doubt a warmblood stallion has passed that trait on. |
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Post by gillwales on Oct 27, 2012 17:00:23 GMT
Shetlands are more likely than any other breed to have problems foaling so please do not let that worry you. I had a 12 hand mare who was covered by bigger stallions and she never had any problems.
Also please remember she is not fat but pregnant, therefore better to give a stud balancer than a lo cal food, just watch her neck does not get cresty.
When it comes closer to foaling establish a routine, most maiden mares want their "mums" around. If you do have to pull the foal the technique is to maintain a steady pressure rather than pull to help the mare with the contractions. Nature is an old hand at this so don't get worried.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2012 17:10:01 GMT
Its funny, I have a mare that waits for me - usually tea time and presents me with two front feet sticking out, she then la\ys down and pushes - an even pull down towards her hocks usually does the trick, she did this as a maiden and has done it twice since, they are funny. I foal around 15 of my own every year and help friends too.
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Post by wildnative on Oct 27, 2012 19:47:11 GMT
Whilst my daughter was doing work experience with our local equine vets, they had to cut a foal up to get it out of a mini shetland,as it was too big (already dead, obviously). Thanks pencaedu It's great to get a "heads up " on any potential problems. My filly is a well grown 3 year old New Forest. Nice chunky type (takes after her sire - Warren Play-Away, and her damsire - Limekiln Endeavour). She is compact and strong, roomy enough to carry a bigger foal, good and broad through her loins and hips and has good genital conformation. Plus point - all foals born at my EX yard have been born on the small side. There is so much to take in, but I'm taking everyone's replies fully on board. Thank you. I've found out from someone who used to work at that yard....the colts breeding is as follows...( and I now know there are 7 potential sires  ...Jeremy Kyle for Horses anyone ? Lol !). Colt 1 - 3 year old by Bavarian WB Stallion, out of a chunky 13.2hh pony mare. (Friend doesn't know sire for sure, this colt could be by the Bavarian x Tb stallion). Colt 2 - 3 year old by Bavarian x Tb stallion, out of a 13.2hh black, blanket spotted pony mare Colt 3 - 2 year old by Bavarian WB stallion, out of a Hanoverian mare. Colt 4 - 2 years old by Bavarian x Tb stallion, out of a big WB mare. Colt 5 - 2 years old by Bavarian x Tb stallion, out of a big WB mare. Colt 6 - 1 year old by Bavarian WB stallion, out of a big WB mare. Colt 7 - 1 year old by Bavarian WB stallion, out of a big WB mare. Colts 5 and 7 are half brothers (same dam). Colt 2 is the smallest of all, standing around 14.2 - 15hh at the moment. The colts sires are a big, old type full Bavarian Warmblood (colts 1,3,6,7), and a Bavarian x Tb (colts 2,4,5). Both stallions are by the Bavarian Warmblood - Dumas (Duplikat x Lorina). I believe that some of the EX YO's Warmbloods came from Straloch Stud in Aberdeenshire. Some of the mares bloodlines I believe are from Japaloupe S (Jalisco Jnr x Ariane). So, foalie has some top SJ and Dressage bloodlines....shame the EX YO didn't register her horses . CarolineNelson, Thank you so much for your very kind offer. I'd like to accept if that's ok with you. I will send you a PM. Everyone else, thank you for your replies, but it took me a while to write my reply so I have forgotten what you have all said. I'll read your replies again. |
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 28, 2012 8:23:24 GMT
The owner of the colts will have had (should have had) them DNA tested - so, to be able to register the foal with it's correct sire - therefore making it a 'fully Registered' PBNF if that makes sense, they will have to agree to you testing once foal is born. Don't be shy of asking, the mistake was not yours.
The New Forest Soc will help you with the necessary paperwork and you'll find them very helpful.
All being ok at this end, I'm going up to Perthshire on 9th Nov and will keep in touch. You have my mobile number already!
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Post by gillwales on Oct 28, 2012 9:16:57 GMT
it is likely that the leader of the herd covered your filly unless there were more than one mare to cover. I would say it was very unlikely that the yearlings will be the sire but not impossible.
hope this is of help
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Post by wildnative on Oct 28, 2012 17:07:26 GMT
The owner of the colts will have had (should have had) them DNA tested - so, to be able to register the foal with it's correct sire - therefore making it a 'fully Registered' PBNF if that makes sense, they will have to agree to you testing once foal is born. Don't be shy of asking, the mistake was not yours. The New Forest Soc will help you with the necessary paperwork and you'll find them very helpful. All being ok at this end, I'm going up to Perthshire on 9th Nov and will keep in touch. You have my mobile number already! I'm afraid the colts are not registered, so I very much doubt that their owner would have had DNA testing carried out. Foalie will have to be a registered Part Bred NF, with "sire unknown", unless there is some way that I can get the colts tested to verify parentage and breeding. (Could a court order this ?). Thank you Caroline. Yes, I do have your number already, thank you. gillwales, there were around 30 - 40 mares in the field. Liveries, YO's own mares and youngsters and riding school ponies. I have now been told that Colt 1 wouldn't stay in a field so wandered about the place wherever he wanted to !!! I have also been told that he was seen covering his own half sister !!! WHY, WHY, WHY did this woman not have these colts gelded ? Then, not tell her liveries that they were still entire. Despicable springs to mind. Colt 1 is the biggest of the lot, and is a 3 year old. He is looking like the most likely suspect. Good news is that his sire and dam are still there, so both the colt and his parents could be DNA tested. There is in fact some doubt over which of the YO's stallions is Colt 1's sire. His dam is a chunky 13.2 cob mare (Dixie), sire is either the Bavarian stallion (Oliver) OR the Bavarian x TB stallion (Doopy). As far as I know, these stallions are not registered either. YO bred then herself. Oliver is by the Bavarian WB stallion, Dumas, out of a WB mare owned by the YO (Chaos) which she has now sold. Doopy, is also by Dumas, out of the YO's TB mare (known as Troopy) which the YO still owns. I have worked out an approximate foaling date ! Based on Callie's rectal ultrasound scan on 25th October 2012, my vet told me that the foal is the size of a cat/newborn lamb. This makes the foal around 250 days old. Based on a pregnancy being between 320 - 370 days, counting backwards from 250 days (from her scan), approximate covering date was late February/March 2012. Counting forwards from her scan (est 250 days pregnant), Callie has around 70 - 120 days to go. This gives an approximate foaling date of between 3rd January - 22nd February 2013. I'm hoping the foal will arrive later than this, but at least I now have an approximate date to work with. |
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Post by Guestless on Oct 28, 2012 17:58:15 GMT
You're obviously doing your homework wildnative, so well done for dealing with it so well.
Your previous YO on the other hand sounds rather strange and should not IMO be responsible for having entires. Does she actually do anything with them or are they just field ornaments? Highly irreponsible for anyone to have a 3 year old colt wandering around, next mind if you have horses on the premises that don't belong to you.
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Post by bethanyy on Oct 28, 2012 18:00:54 GMT
Wow wildnative you have done a brilliant job finding all the information about the colts and her potential foaling dates! My brain is mashed after trying to get my head around it! At least you have a better idea of the breeding to get your new baby registered and prepare for its birth xx
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Post by bethanyy on Oct 28, 2012 18:02:38 GMT
Your previous YO on the other hand sounds rather strange and should not IMO be responsible for having entires. Does she actually do anything with them or are they just field ornaments? Highly irreponsible for anyone to have a 3 year old colt wandering around, next mind if you have horses on the premises that don't belong to you. Couldn't agree more, makes you wonder how many other mares they have covered unknown to owners. |
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What was the point of this?!
...Jeremy Kyle for Horses anyone ? Lol !).