How to get a nice outline?

[madsazzy]

My daughter has been riding a lovely little section a for a couple of months. This pony is only 4 and has only ever been used as a lead rein pony for her 3 year old owner.
My daughter has bee hacking her out anddone a bit of schooling, but our facilities for schooling are limited (we have a field lol)

Last weekend they did a dressage comp, a first for both of them. They scored a very impressive 70.86% which I am amazingly proud of, especially as my daughter can be very nrvous an the pony is very green.
Even though they did very well I think the overall picture would be better if the pony worked in a nice outline, as she does tendto poke her nose in the air.
I don't want to use gadgets and we can't o muc in the way of schooling now the fields are wet. So some tips on what my daughter could do while out hacking would be very much appreciated
Thanks

[Milliesmum]

Half halts and lots of transitions can be done out hacking. Concentrate on riding the back end, pony (lovely by the way), is still a baby and the outline will come with time, steer clear of any 'short cuts' or gadgets as they aren't a long term fix.

[equibest]

I would suggets willing rains/two quick pulls on one rain followed by the same on the other continued to encourage the head to come in. This will take some time for the horse to grasp what is required. As addistion i would lunge with side rains to pull the head in (only as a way of teaching the correct position and not to be used when riding). To start with only do short stints in the out line as the horse will probly need to build muscle to be able to sustain the outline.

[Milliesmum]

Nov 19, 2012 11:52:08 GMT equibest said:

I would suggets willing rains/two quick pulls on one rain followed by the same on the other continued to encourage the head to come in. This will take some time for the horse to grasp what is required. As addistion i would lunge with side rains to pull the head in (only as a way of teaching the correct position and not to be used when riding). To start with only do short stints in the out line as the horse will probly need to build muscle to be able to sustain the outline.

OK so if you pull his head in using the above method how are you going to get his hind quarters to engage and the rest of him to be in the correct outline? Very interested to know!

[haaaaanandcaspian]

I love schooling on hacks, I push them into a very collected trot and squeeze until I can feel the back end underneath, don't worry where the head is, the head will lower as they get used to working from behind, when they start working underneath I encouraged the head down by squeezing the reins (hands don't move and the bit certainly shouldn't move in the mouth) but this worked for me

[ilovenatives]

Some lessons with a good instructor so she can learn how to school the pony to go in a nice outline .
At four though i wouldnt be in to much of a hurry to get the ponies head in as said above it will come in time . Watched a novice pony at a show recently who was going in an outline but had a small trip in his show causing him to fall on his knees because his head was on his chest and he hadnt learnt to carry himself yet .
Have to confess though Milliesmum i do lunge Nutmeg once or twice a week in loose elasticated side reins at this time of year as she is not getting ridden in the week and i dont think its fair to expect her to not be worked all week then expect her to do a lesson and work in an outline .

[sarahp]

I suppose it's a question of define what outline you want! I'm with Mm, take the trouble to do it properly in the first place and get it right. And it is perfectly possible to help them to learn to use their hindquarters correctly on the lunge and fitten up the correct muscles, not by pulling the head in but using long side reins, or a long bungie and encouraging the head position forward and down while making sure you maintain impulsion and encourage the pony to step well under himself and overtrack behind rather than letting the hindlegs trail out behind, which will only hollow the back.

[daizylindsay]

I think your bit is too low and looks quite big? As he is very upright it might take done time but with your attitude (good attitude - no gadgets) I'm sure it will come naturally in time. We do lead my niece on our A in side reins (very loose) just to stop him snatching and encourage him lower. Great job at the dressage, they will be a great team!

[amumwithapony]

I'm just in the process of breaking in a section a for my 8 year old daughter and have found side reins for lunging, but set very loose as the others have said. You can get an outline quicker if you strap the head in, but with ponies for the tinies they aren't strong enough to hold the head in once you give them the reins, and the back end will trail behind as you have said.

You will then end up either with a pony that wombles round with his head on his chest and the back end going nowhere fast OR a pony that constantly snatches or takes evasive action against his little jockey because he knows he can!

When you have him on the lunge you need to encourage him to self carry. I'm no expert at lunging but I find going up and down the gears in the different paces gets them thinking and working better than just whizzing them around on it.

I also like to longrein and find that also encourages long and low which will get his back working properly, then the head should follow if his back end is doing what it should do. He will find self carriage (which is what you are aiming for) easier if you show him and help him use his whole body properly.

He is also quite muscly under his neck. If you feed him in a net I would be tempted to drop it on the floor personally.

What I would just say though is if they scored that result on their test then maybe they are in a nice shape and the judges obviously though he was working well, regardless of how he is carrying himself. Be careful not to compare him unfavourably to the little ponies you see on the show circuit with their chins on their chests. Many of them would struggle to get that mark in a dressage test I think so he must be doing something right for a 4 yr old with a little jockey on board!

Maybe get a dressage instructer to come in and have a squint, or go to a dressage clinic or something. They will be able to see how the pony works and give you better advice than what we can from a picture.

He's very clean BTW. My greys are filthier than the book about shades of grey lol.

[dazycutter]

sweet pony, try refining the neck off... as AMWAP said, he is very over developed on the underside which will hamper him coming into a correct outline.

I agree with she is too young to use gadgets but lunging in a pessoa can really help them with lowering and lengthening and using their back end..

good luck

[baggygirl]

What about lunging with a pessoa, 10mins to start with then build up as it develops topline, the pessoa will help create the outline, engage the hindquaters and build up topline. As your pony is only four, get it to work long and low and then later on in his life, start to advance the contact but at this stage, start to work the horse long and low.

[Deleted]

Think MM was a little harsh there, I have been recommended by my instructor to lunge my 4 yr old in side reins. Lunge only. They're not tight, and it's definitely encouraging her to drop, and when I am on board, I encourage her to work from behind, and she's learning to drop by herself. Much better when they think they are teaching themselves, rather than being told!

[mountainsandhorses]

Firstly, what a lovely pony and so nice to see jockey with longer stirrups. Totally agree with AMWAP about lowering the hay net if it is high as that builds under neck muscle quicker than anything. I'm not a pessoa fan due to the slight "pull" as hind leg comes back. I'd leave well alone and ride correctly as it sounds she does and maybe long line, on a really light contact a few times per week with someone who can long line sympathetically. For me, with little ponies its all about only using the strength a little person has (which is a mere fraction of an adult) hacking up hills is great for getting hind end under. I'm fed up of seeing strapped down ponies and horses and you can easily pick them out. I haven't so much of a problem with a training aid like a de-gogue where the rider has no influence but the pony is rewarded when it relaxes it's neck. Good Luck- I'd be delighted with that score

[eventinggirl68]

Nov 19, 2012 12:01:31 GMT Milliesmum said:

Nov 19, 2012 11:52:08 GMT equibest said:

I would suggets willing rains/two quick pulls on one rain followed by the same on the other continued to encourage the head to come in. This will take some time for the horse to grasp what is required. As addistion i would lunge with side rains to pull the head in (only as a way of teaching the correct position and not to be used when riding). To start with only do short stints in the out line as the horse will probly need to build muscle to be able to sustain the outline.

OK so if you pull his head in using the above method how are you going to get his hind quarters to engage and the rest of him to be in the correct outline? Very interested to know!

i agree so basically you would have your horse head in a lovely outline and the back end will trailing behind .

[xJBDx]

Lunging with a pessoa may help!?

[Milliesmum]

Nov 19, 2012 19:23:45 GMT @toot95 said:

Think MM was a little harsh there, I have been recommended by my instructor to lunge my 4 yr old in side reins. Lunge only. They're not tight, and it's definitely encouraging her to drop, and when I am on board, I encourage her to work from behind, and she's learning to drop by herself. Much better when they think they are teaching themselves, rather than being told!

It was more the 'two quick pulls on one rein then on the other rein' which concerned me, how can it be correct to yank a pony's head into position by jabbing them in the mouth?

[madsazzy]

Thanks for all your replies.
She's not my pony, she is a livery at our yard and her owner is kindly letting my kids ride her so she is doing a bit more then just down the lane on the lead rein.
She is fed in a net so i will suggest that the hay is put on the floor.
She is not a fancy show pony and we certainly don't want her head pulled into her chest.
As I said, schooling isn't really an option at the moment because of wet fields, ad I do agree that he bit is a tad big for her, she has such a tiny head i think it's quite heavy for her.
She is a very sweet pony and her and is still very young, it's not the be all and end all that she works in an outline, but i think it will improve the overall picture.
Oh and she is only so clean because I clipped her the night before, she was a truely filthy little urchin, her owner and i looked a each other not sure where to start with bathing her on a freezing november afternoon. So we chopped it all off instead

Here is another pic, which shows how she pokes her nose up.

[madsazzy]

Seeing that picture that size, it does look as though she is quite unhappy with her bit, so maybe a discussion with her owner about other bits would be worthwhile.
Any suggestions on what type of snaffle would be comfortable?

[mountainsandhorses]

I also think that the bit may be to big but at least the little rider appears to be with the pony rather than fighting her That's a huge positive in my book.

[katealice89]

I also have a baby section a.... Have been struggling for weeks but just now changed him in to a loose ring french link. The difference is amazing ... He used to just evade and stick nose up and out ir to his chest now its a long road to an out line but even after 3 days with the new bit ge his showing moments of genious going long and low ....


Worth a try i guess xx

Sent from my GT-I9100P using proboards

[equibest]

I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say 'pull' the head in was the wrong wording I mean encourage and I certainly did not say anything about jabbing the horse in the mouth! Mearly wiggling the bit only slightly to encourage the horse to drop its head, it works very well and if you do it right you are not applying any real pressure. I would first get the neck muscles built up in the right place (top not bottom) by using this in short bursts starting with only a few strides at walk then reward with a controlled canter if the horse enjoys the more paceyer stuff. I have done this with a horse that I'm working with to great success. In the same sessions I would also do lots of circles serpintines figure 8 etc and transitions to supple the horse up and build up top line. When the horse can hold its head in the correct place I would then push the horse on into the bit to bring the hind into the correct shape but if the head is up/nose out your pushing the horse on into nothing and will only gain in speed. I believe in working in stages rather than trying to achieve every thing at once. So to clarify I'm not saying to physically wrench the horse into position as this will only cause further problem. Sorry for my spelling, in know it's bad hence I work with horses and as a p.a. or secretary.

[GinaGeo]

Conformationally some horse's find it easier than others. If they're thick through the jowl like one of mine and this Section A it's much much harder. You need to get the pony working long and low. This will probably be hard for a young child to train a pony as it can take a lot of core strength and leg - children tend not to be muscularly strong enough to do this. So I'd be long lining and lots of it to help redevelop the neck muscles to try and help the pony to work correctly.

I think I understand what you're trying to describe equibest - although I'd want the hind end coming through before I worried about the head. I want the horse long and low, which involves low, wide hands, lots of spiralling and moving the horse around to allow him to soften. A horse cannot work correctly, until they understand they learn to work into the contact - this would be my priority.

Hvaing said that, I didn't have any of my poines working "correctly" when I was a similar to your daughter madsazzy, they were safe, but fun and they taught me to "ride" and not be a passenger. They also didn't work in true outline - but then I wasn't physically strong to achieve it without the pony having been schooled primarily by adults - and where's the fun in that! I didn't show as a kid, I hunted, jumped, did mounted games and hacked out and had a marvelous time doing it - certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it so much if I had to concentrate on looking pretty too! My basic position was good and my hands were soft as I'd never been told to fiddle to make the "Head come in". When I got my first "proper" pony I was then able to teach him, with the help of my instructor to work correctly. It took time, but it's not something I could have achieved properly at an earlier age, as I lacked the core strength that really is so important when doing this.

I think it's different putting a child onto a pony that's been taught by an adult or teenager to work properly but I think it'd very difficult having a child re-educating. So either you'll need to do it from the ground, or just ignore it and let your daughter enjoy herself.

Lunging could work, but often once the gadget is removed pony reverts back to how it was before Long Lining I prefer as you can actually"ride" the pony from the ground.

[sarahp]

Lunging without gadgets except possibly a loose bungie used over the poll to encourage low and low can work, I've done it, and that will build up the hind end muscles and a correct top line. I turned an adult upside down WB the right way up, talking in muscle development terms here, by lunging him. He was a very sensitive horse and I couldn't ride him well enough to do it from on top, or run fast enough to do it by long reining - he was about 16.2 with amazing paces. But always hind end first, then the head position will come right pretty much by itself, maybe a little gentle asking and immediate relaxation of the hand just to show the horse what is required, but this after you have got the back end working properly first.

I think it's only showing that has this obsession with tiny childrens' ponies having to be in an outline, those that actually "do" instead of just showing recognise that small children can't be expected to think about outlines but are too occupied learning to actually ride in the first place! My daughter did much as you did GG, and although taught from the age of 6 by a dressage instructor was not asked to worry about outline until she was old enough to do so properly. I have done lots of dressage writing at all levels and at PC can't remember finding a judge that would penalise a small child for a poking nose but just recognised it as being at that child's stage of riding ability. Judges at that level are normally extremely good at recognising nervous children and green ponies and giving credit and encouragement where it is due.

[amumwithapony]

Bless her,such a sweet looking little pony. She does go a little pokey nosed, but my A mare goes in exactly the same way!

I'd look at a simple eggbut snaffle for her first and then work from there. They are about £10 in a tack shop so if it doesn't work you've not spent a fortune. Nice to see someone not think 'get a wilkie in' if they have this problem .

I'd also hazard a guess looking at her pretty little head that the bridle she has on is on the top hole for the cheek pieces? That bit looks about 1 hole to low for me. if you get a smaller snaffle it may lift it up slightly as the bit rings will be a bit smaller but if it doesn't I would suggest either finding some shorter cheekpieces to try or having another hole put in the head piece if you can. I use our local Timpsons for extra holes in bits and pieces but mark clearly where you want the holes first as they won't really understand the importance of them being bang level lol.

If your fields are too wet and soggy at the min for lessons I'd look at dropping her hay on the floor and doing some longreining for now. Then when you can, have an instructer come and look at them and got from there. Hopefully by then you will have worked a little on her muscles and the instructer will be able to help yur little girl with technical stuff and you will also have her tack sorted out.

If you want to send your little girl to me in the meantime I have 2 filthy sec a's that I only have 1 little girl for? And we have a school lol. Ones goes pokey nosed and one has very good self carriage but has only been sat on briefly once. So she can pick between being boinged around or a pokey nosed L/R pony that has a BIG attitude off the lead lol.

Interestingly, the pokey nosed one doesn't poke her nose at all with side reins on, even when they aren't making any contact whatsoever?

[sundance20]

It took me 3 years to get my 23 year old to drop his head down and work properly the putting pressure on then releasing it when he softened worked for us, starting in halt and just putting slight pressure on till he submitted, although diffrence being the age,yours will be learning from the begining and sunny was just old tricks brought back to life.

love the pony so cute!

[madsazzy]

lol amwap I might take u up on that and send her over to ride your ponies
Interesting mix of comments, i think our plan of action will be to feed her hay from the floor and change her bit and lift it slightly and see how they get on with that.
I have t admit, that i find schooling boring myself and i also competed in the dressage comp on the same day. I hated it lol but my daughter really loves anything to do with learning and pracicing to improve. She enjoys doing training from the ground as much as she enjoys riding. Although she mainly hacks out, she much prefers schooling and she thoroughly enjoyed the dressage and has said she wants to practice and improve and compete some more at that.
I think maybe i have seen too many show ponies and assumed they will get beter marks if they look like that x

[sarahp]

Well eventually going in a CORRECT outline is what will be required in a dressage test, but it takes time and schooling. A decent judge would notice a false outline produced by gadgets and mark down for it.

[rosefinch]

She is a really sweet pony and how wonderful that your daughter is having a good at dressage well done to her for that.
I have always found long reigning the best for getting a small pony to work from behind and accept the bridle as you are pushing them from behind.
I would do this on quiet roads and hills if poss to encourage her to use her back end and start to drop her head and build muscle - top line .
A varied exercise routine and your daughter having a go you will get there in the end

good luck xxx

[smalley]

I don't know if this will help but when we got my young horse he hadn't done much schooling and had a huge muscle under his neck but nothing on top. I started out by teaching him to work 'long and low' but keeping him steady so he could engage his himdquaters and keep balanced. After he got the hang of keeping his head low we asked him to come rounder and more forward. It's takes a while but now he's very successful at dressage! We also lunge him in a pessoa, it really helps with topline. Lessons are a good idea, my instructor really helped with my horse! Also, we had him in a snaffle with cheeks like your pony has, but we have since changed him into a french link loose ring snaffle and he goes much better! hope this helps good luck