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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 11:26:03 GMT
After a phone call last night; I feel I have to warn mare owners that when you enquire about using a stallion, please make sure you see evidence that the person standing the stallion at stud is the owner or has the permission of the owner to cover mares, otherwise you will not get a covering certificate and your foal will be unregisterable.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 8, 2013 12:07:34 GMT
I don't know about other breed societies, but the WPCS require a loan form to be filled in, signed by both parties and lodged with them if you have a stallion or mare on loan to breed from, before they will register a resulting foal.
I do second Jane's warning, it's a terrible positon to be in if you have bred a pure bred, what should be a legitimate foal and then find you can't get it registered because necessary paperwork isn't in place. Especially if you have sold it!
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Post by elmere on Jan 8, 2013 13:51:19 GMT
Yes the HPS require a loan form to be filled and signed too, best checking with the breed society first.
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Post by gilbertgrape on Jan 8, 2013 16:22:03 GMT
The WPCS does have a lease option which I have used successfully. The first time I used it the "owner" of the stallion was NOT the registered owner and he told me he'd signed the lease form and returned it to WPCS. Well he lied and when time came to register 3 foals I had to ask the previous owner to sign service certificates for me. He was very understanding and helped.
I think I'd always ask to see the passport of the stallion to prove who owns it.
Also phone WPCS head office to check the lease is in place and logged with them.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 8, 2013 16:33:12 GMT
Legally, the passport is not proof of ownership. If in doubt best ask the breed society concerned.
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Post by Louise Dixon on Jan 8, 2013 19:59:11 GMT
I have a pony here on loan, and also have one away on loan, the HPS give you a seperate piece of paper for highlands saying that you have the pony on an offical loan, as the passport and registration certificate retain the owner's details.
Jane will know better than me, but I think my darty has a special section in her green passport for recording official loans?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 22:46:29 GMT
I let a young stallion go out on ridden loan with view to a sale 2011, he was a DPS star show winner before he went. She has paid me some of the money owed, the agreement was .. until he was paid for fully he was not to be used at stud - once paid for I would change him into her ownership, then obviously she could do as she wanted - I have had people wanting a covering cert for using him!!! I can't issue it - I haven't covered the mare! I don't know wether she has charged a stud fee! nightmare... I will never let a pony go on loan with view to a sale again. I feel VERY used.
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Post by elmere on Jan 8, 2013 23:04:55 GMT
Did you have a contract in place?
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Post by lisadundee on Jan 8, 2013 23:15:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 23:20:06 GMT
Did you have a contract in place? We were friends of many years, I thought I could trust her - we had an agreement via private messages and texts - the breed society have been aware from before she took him. It has all gone to small claims court now, they have all the messages and texts. |
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Post by elmere on Jan 8, 2013 23:22:39 GMT
How upsetting for you, is the foal going to be DNA tested then and possibly registered with a payment of a stud fee or are you just arguing against registration altogether?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 23:27:13 GMT
I had no idea this woman was covering mares with my stallion - that was not the agreement - she also has another stallion on the yard - so I don't know that this womans mare was covered by my stallion, by all means if the resulting foal is dna tested and a stud fee paid then yes it may be able to be registered, it will depend on the breed society won't it?
My warning was to warn mare owners not to take a mare to a stallion that the person standing it, does not have the right to do so. It really worries me that someone can take peoples mares at stud, charge them a stud fee and not be able to give them a proper covering certificate, said mare owners are expecting to be able to register the resulting progeny, which they find out a year later that they cannot.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 9, 2013 7:38:00 GMT
Jane I feel for you, a rotten situation. I must admit I've seen it from the mare owner's point of view but not from the owner of a stallion that is being illegitimately used for covering.
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Post by YoungSTOCK on Jan 9, 2013 8:52:42 GMT
Oh dear. Did you not check out this persons back ground and reputation before agreeing to send your stallion?
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Post by amumwithapony on Jan 9, 2013 9:42:12 GMT
Not a nice situation to be in.
However I don't know how a mares owner could check that the person standing the stallion at stud has the correct permission? Its an easy enough thing to download a lease form and stick a false signature on it and the breed socities will be reluctant to give out personal information over the phone/by mail because of Data Protection. So I would imagine they would be unable to confirm whether 'mrs x' has the stallion on legitimate breeding loan. And breed societies can take some time to update their paperwork and do make mistakes.
Maybe if you have a stallion you should take full responsibilty for any offspring and allow them to be registered subject to a DNA test. Unfair on the foal if its not able to go into a stud book because of issues like this. Its not ideal I know as you haven't checked that the mare is one you would like to produce a foal by your stallion but if you were selling him anyway you would have lost that right the day he was legally purchased. The only way to fully control what stock ends up on the floor by your stallion is to geld him.
An unfortunate situation but neither the mares owners fault or the foals.
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Post by elmere on Jan 9, 2013 10:09:51 GMT
Not a nice situation to be in. However I don't know how a mares owner could check that the person standing the stallion at stud has the correct permission? Its an easy enough thing to download a lease form and stick a false signature on it and the breed socities will be reluctant to give out personal information over the phone/by mail because of Data Protection. So I would imagine they would be unable to confirm whether 'mrs x' has the stallion on legitimate breeding loan. And breed societies can take some time to update their paperwork and do make mistakes. Maybe if you have a stallion you should take full responsibilty for any offspring and allow them to be registered subject to a DNA test. Unfair on the foal if its not able to go into a stud book because of issues like this. Its not ideal I know as you haven't checked that the mare is one you would like to produce a foal by your stallion but if you were selling him anyway you would have lost that right the day he was legally purchased. The only way to fully control what stock ends up on the floor by your stallion is to geld him. An unfortunate situation but neither the mares owners fault or the foals. Well Im not sure which society you have had to deal with but the HPS would happily give a name, it is something that is readily available on show catalogues etc. so it is hardly breaching data protection. |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 9, 2013 11:14:29 GMT
Wouldn't putting a false signature on a lease form legally count as fraud? I'm sure that most breed societies, if asked if mrs x has this stallion on legitimate breeding loan should be able to give a yes or no without breaching Data Protection. You can never guard 100% against all possible eventualities, but a mare owner can at least try to cover their back, and if told all OK by the breed society and it still went wrong would have more ammunition for setting things to rights?
amwap, what you are suggesting re stallions would in practice mean few if any stallions would be lent/leased out. Agreed, when sold you have no further control, fair enough, but if lent/leased you might well, for example, want him to have a dedicated ridden career before coming back to the owner for breeding, and what about the stud fees? What if he has gone to be produced and covered while there without the owner's say so? (Mine has but with my full permission, having been asked first). Put yourself in the place of a stallion owner asked to lend out their stallion and knowing that he could be used at stud without your permission, possibly extensively and on any old mares, any offspring so produced could be registered as long as it was DNA'd, and you wouldn't even get any stud fees for what could be sub standard offspring from sub standard mares.
As I've said above, I have full sympathy with mare owners in the position of not being able to register what they believed to be a registrable foal, but I can see the stallion owner's point of view too, both are victims in this scenario.
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jan 9, 2013 11:17:52 GMT
There's also the risk of your stallion being kicked/injured when used for covering by someone inexperienced. Then you find yourself with a stallion being returned with an injury which will cost you a fortune in vets bills and may jeopardise his future career.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 9, 2013 11:22:09 GMT
True, I hadn't thought of that one! I could add suitable insurance, or lack of, if a mare was injured during covering?
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Post by Louise Dixon on Jan 9, 2013 15:29:20 GMT
What an awful situation for you Jane. As Elmere said, with the HPS you can certainly access the information - any society member can see the names of the breeder, owner and registered keeper (this is normally the owner, but an official loan would show here) of any registered pony by accessing the grassroots database.
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Post by Louise Dixon on Jan 9, 2013 15:32:25 GMT
Sorry, that somehow posted before I had finished! So, as a mare owner, it would be very easy to check, and you would have almost certainly already been on the database checking out bloodlines etc. and so hopefully would have noticed anything amiss, if the names did not match up. But I can see that where a database is not used, a mare owner wouldn't have any reason to suppose the person standing the stallion did not have the right to do so, unless they had had the issue highlighted to them, as Jane has done here.
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Post by amumwithapony on Jan 9, 2013 16:25:38 GMT
How many people do check though? And how many would think to do so? And even if they did check, and the breed society confirms that 'Mrs X' is the registered owner or legally loaning the pony and the Mrs X is in fact Mrs Y? So the person who has the pony in their possession gives the owners name as theres? Or if when you ring them they won't disclose the information? Or the information is out of date? Or inaccurate?
Who should the onus be on? The mare owner or the stallion owner or the person who has the stallion in their possession at that time? As we know passports are not proof of ownership. And breed socities are not always willing to either share the information or the information they have is not up to date? In this case if the stallion was loaned out in 2011 presumably the stallions owner contacted the Breed Society to advise them of the situation.
And, at the end of the day at the time of the covering the stallion was still the property of the OP. Therefore IMO the OP should do the right thing by the foals born who can be proved to be by that stallion by means of a DNA test. Its not the foals fault and I can't see how it can be the mares owners fault either.
There is information available that can possibly be checked but I just don't see how it is possible to check it 100% accurately.
No one wants to register inferior or sub standard stock (if that is the case) but the grieviences should be kept between the OP and the person who had the stallion on loan, whatever the situation. Presumably there was an official loan contract in place that specifically stated what the stallion could and could not be used for. In an ideal world either the relevant paperwork was completed with the breed society to state that it was non-breeding loan or they had a copy of a specific contract stating that the stallion was on non breeding loan.
Otherwise the majority of people will take it on face value. They have the pony on their yard, whether it is owned or on loan. They therefore have the right to use the pony in whatever way they choose, including covering mares.
And if there was no contract in place stating all the above that the mares owners could access and check then presumably they go with the information they have? Which is Mrs X has the pony, Mrs X is standing him at stud, Mrs X has the right to do that, Mrs X can provide a covering certificate when required.
Its an unfortunate situation to be in for all concerned. But the ones who are suffering are the mare owners who now will have to pay for a DNA test, and from what the OP has said, also another stud fee to her to get the foal registered properly.
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Post by viking on Jan 9, 2013 16:47:58 GMT
If I was a mare owner I would be pretty darned angry to get caught up in a mess like this.
The answer is friend or no friend, don't sell until you receive the money
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 9, 2013 16:53:23 GMT
Surely the onus is on the person who has the stallion in their possession at the time to make sure the question of covering or not is sorted out beforehand and that if they intend to cover and have the owner's permission to do so that the correct paperwork is done. Why should it be anyone else's?
I have great sympathy for both mare owner and stallion owner in this situation, the culprit is the one in the middle who has done something they shouldn't have done, and who should be held financially responsible.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 17:00:11 GMT
Yes, of course she was a friend of many years until this happened - its called taking the pee!!! Oh dear. Did you not check out this persons back ground and reputation before agreeing to send your stallion? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 17:15:50 GMT
The stallion concerned is VERY much top quality, he is a major show winner and went to be shown under saddle - not used for breeding until he was proven under saddle - his sire is dead and he is the last of a very well known winning line - so a valueable animal.
I often lease/ loan stallions out to be ridden - and not bred from - but not anymore!
I do have a contract with her - that is why it is going to court.
Any stud fee paid will be returned as far as I am concerned - because she should never have charged one in the first place - this will all be covered in the court case.
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Post by brindlerainbow on Jan 9, 2013 17:32:01 GMT
But what happens to the poor mare owners who have in good faith sent their mares to be covered by the stallion and whether they paid the woman a stud fee or not they now have foals that are not registerable ?
They are the innocent party in all of this.......
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Post by elmere on Jan 9, 2013 17:38:45 GMT
Surely the mare owner did not pass over a stud fee without receiving a covering certificate in return?
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 9, 2013 18:12:36 GMT
It's possible in theory, no idea in this case, for the person borrowing the stallion to write and sign one and give it to the mare owner who would only find out it wasn't valid when they heard back from the breed society when they tried to register the resulting foal.
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Post by elmere on Jan 9, 2013 18:15:31 GMT
It's possible in theory, no idea in this case, for the person borrowing the stallion to write and sign one and give it to the mare owner who would only find out it wasn't valid when they heard back from the breed society when they tried to register the resulting foal. Yes thats the only way I can see it happening with the exchange of a stud fee but surely as you say it must count as fraud? |
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