Warning to mare owners

[sarahp]

Very glad to hear it, and only justice. I won't apologise as I agreed with you all along!

[Deleted]

I didn't expect an apology from you sarahp - there was just one or two that had me judged guilty! didn't expect them to apologise as they just love to stir people up, I've noticed it on a few threads - It was lovely to have some support from genuine folk - THANKS to you all - you know who you are.

[sarahp]

I know you didn't, only trying to point out that there were those of us who supported your position.

[viking]

Hopefully some measure has been put in place to avoid this happening again.

[mara]

Glad you're part way to sorting out this sorry mess.

As a mare owner I don't see how the stallion owner can be held responsible in this situation - stallion went away in good faith, clearly with some evidence of what the stallion was allowed to do whilst on loan.

It's for this very reason that stud societies have breeding loan agreements that you can download, likewise loan agreements to allow you to show a horse/pony you have on loan.

It's a shame someone felt they could swindle a friend in this manner & I know who I wouldn't trust in the future & it's not the OP.

I can't believe the attitude some of you have taken - no doubt if you had a stillborn or mare didn't hold you'd be trying to blame the stallion owner for that as well and claiming for a year's loss of use as a broodmare.

[Deleted]

Jan 20, 2013 16:49:41 GMT viking said:

Hopefully some measure has been put in place to avoid this happening again.

She has until the 1st feb to pay me what she owes, otherwise the stallion comes home at her cost, so then none of my boys go out on loan again - end of!

[sarahp]

I don't blame you.

[viking]

Jan 20, 2013 17:44:05 GMT cayberry said:

Jan 20, 2013 16:49:41 GMT viking said:

Hopefully some measure has been put in place to avoid this happening again.

She has until the 1st feb to pay me what she owes, otherwise the stallion comes home at her cost, so then none of my boys go out on loan again - end of!

Very sensible.

[Deleted]

This will happen again I'm sure - It just shows how easy it can happen - so PLEASE anyone taking a mare to a stallion, make sure the person who takes the stud fee off you is the registered owner, it is EASILY checked on the stallion passport & license - Do this before you take your mare.

[sarahp]

Or, depending on the breed society I guess, there is a breeding loan arrangement correctly logged with the breed society, that's what happens with the WPCS anyway. I have borrowed and leased mares as wives for my stallion in the past, and for their foals to be registered in my name and with my prefix the correct society form must have been filled in, signed by both parties and lodged with the WPCS. The breeder can sign the registration form only if both parents are in their name, as owner or with the loan form lodged as for a mare, otherwise it requires a covering certificate signed by the owner.

[mf]

Jane at Cayberry Stud I am grateful for your warning thank you. From this thread there appears to be some who are inexperienced (though quick to judge), maybe even a little ignorant but certainly do not understand the rules and regulations governing the issuing of covering certificates (which are imposed by the societies NOT the stallion owner). The suggestion that you should just issue a covering certificate to a mare you have never seen, not seen covered and the stallion wasnt in your possession at time of covering leaves me astounded and totally ignores the importance of ensuring that registered foals are who they say they are hence the importance of DNA tests where there is doubt. Some would obviously rather jeopardise our stud books and all the careful breeding that responsible breeders have done over the years by allowing anyone to register anything!!
Having been in a situation where my fully registered and certified (and very expensive colt) was then found to be by a totally different stallion than the passport (and therefore the original covering certificate) showed I would like all foals to be dna'd along with their passport applications and microchips but then there would be uproar as an extra £40 on top of the expense of having a foal and doing it properly would no doubt be seen as excessive. To me it would be worth it and certainly should I make an expensive purchase of any breeding stock in future I would be wanting DNA done as part of the deal (perhaps theres another warning there for anyone thinking of buying a mare/filly/colt etc for breeding)

[sarahp]

I'm thinking of getting my broodmares done anyway, then they would be on file just in case anyone asks later on - Welsh stallions are DNA'd when licensed so those would be available anyway.

[deucoch]

What a terrible situation to be in Jane Moore.
It's a shame that there s always someone has to spoil leasing and loaning.
I have borrowed mares and stallions over the years and have been able to have access to the best bloodlines in this way.

I don't there is anything more you could have done on your part to prevent this happening.
You allowed your boy to go for ridden loan and you were a victim of breach of trust.
I feel for the mare owners, but you have gone down the correct route to solve it.
Neither you or the mare owners are guilty party here, it's the loaner.

The wpcs lease forms are useful, as they do flag up any issues come registering foals, for example, i had a mare on loan, her stay was extended, but i forgot that my lease form had expired and both myself and her owner were contacted to check all was correct. But they state they aren't in place of legal papers.
And this case as you didn't approve him for breeding use, this kind of form wouldn't have been of use to you.
Thank you for the warning as i definitely think it would make me question for proof of ownership if in doubt, in the future.
If a stallion was on lease, i think a officially stamped card/certificate from relevant society for the loaner to have as proof to show the owners would be a great idea. As once your forms are filled, the society keeps them, i woukd be happier with something stamped with authority.

[sarahp]

No they aren't legal docs for the actual loan deucoch, you'd still need a proper contract, but as far a the society is concerned they are the arbiter for who should do the covering cert or sign the registration application form and whose prefix the foal is entitled to. If a mare owner looking at a stallion to send a mare to sees that one is in place signed by both the owner and whoever is standing the stallion, all should be well. I don't know the details of the Dartmoor society rules, but in a similar case with a Welsh a check by the mare owner would have seen that the loan form for breeding was not in place and signed by the owner, which should have flagged up a potential problem and could have been checked out.

Good idea re a stamped confirmation that the agreement is in place, but a phonecall to WPCS would get the information too. I've had mares on loan/lease, so the situation hasn't come up.

[Louise Dixon]

That is good news, Jane.

[austell]

what i find sad as a young person in showing,is coming onto a site to find people with incorrect facts insulting my mother and throwing things around, i wish people would understand that there is two sides to each story,and there is no need to start to slander people or bring privet matters up on a public site,i wish id seen this sooner as i would have defended myself and my mother,as what is being said is very unfair,i do not wish for people to jump down my throat for saying my part,but do keep in mind that what some of you say does offended,especially when you don't know the person you are insulting. i would also like to add that we are not in-experience i have competed all of my life and my mother is a breeder also,just to clarify.

[crazychick]

If it's not true then why have the court issued a warrant of execution against your mother? The fact that you're experienced makes it worse in my eyes!

[Deleted]

Mar 3, 2013 22:37:15 GMT austell said:

what i find sad as a young person in showing,is coming onto a site to find people with incorrect facts insulting my mother and throwing things around, i wish people would understand that there is two sides to each story,and there is no need to start to slander people or bring privet matters up on a public site,i wish id seen this sooner as i would have defended myself and my mother,as what is being said is very unfair,i do not wish for people to jump down my throat for saying my part,but do keep in mind that what some of you say does offended,especially when you don't know the person you are insulting. i would also like to add that we are not in-experience i have competed all of my life and my mother is a breeder also,just to clarify.

I suggest you have a word with your mother and sort this sorry mess out, I know all the facts and have been totally honest. You have a court judgement against you - you do not own this stallion, you have not paid for him. You have broken the agreement we arranged. So come on lets have your side of the story?

[austell]

The mare that was covered accidentally by my stallion as he soon will officially be, and that mare was coming to us in order to breed from as we were going to purchase her,we were told by jane that WE could breed from the stallion,which we intended to do, at NO point was he standing at public stud and has NEVER covered any other mare whilst being with us, i want to make that very clear, my mother had one or two enquirers from friends that asked if he was standing at stud to which she said to speak to jane about first, the court have stated that we pay the rest of the payment of him which was never disputed as we always intended on doing so,but we took him on loan under the terms that the money was not the main thing but the home was more important as my mother told jane at the time we took him on loan that we would have to pay in stages, which was said to be fine! and as we have paid over 3/4 of his payment we are now part owners. i am now selling my other poines in order to find the whole sum that is yet to be paid, and the fact that people are trying to say my mother has a bad reputation is absurd as im sure none of you know her personally and no one has ever had nasty things to say about us this is a wrong assumption.

[austell]

i would like to say that i am not bad mouthing anyone! i purely wanted my side to be said, i am at fault obviously, but it was accidental and no body is perfect! but what i dont think is fair, is strangers who have no experience with us insulting and making comments in which are not true.

[Deleted]

Mar 3, 2013 23:10:00 GMT austell said:

The mare that was covered accidentally by my stallion as he soon will officially be, and that mare was coming to us in order to breed from as we were going to purchase her,we were told by jane that WE could breed from the stallion,which we intended to do, at NO point was he standing at public stud and has NEVER covered any other mare whilst being with us, i want to make that very clear, my mother had one or two enquirers from friends that asked if he was standing at stud to which she said to speak to jane about first, the court have stated that we pay the rest of the payment of him which was never disputed as we always intended on doing so,but we took him on loan under the terms that the money was not the main thing but the home was more important as my mother told jane at the time we took him on loan that we would have to pay in stages, which was said to be fine! and as we have paid over 3/4 of his payment we are now part owners. i am now selling my other poines in order to find the whole sum that is yet to be paid, and the fact that people are trying to say my mother has a bad reputation is absurd as im sure none of you know her personally and no one has ever had nasty things to say about us this is a wrong assumption.

You took my stallion in October 2011 - you were supposed to pay monthly - I have 6 payments on bank statements so you have not paid 3/4! The agreement was he wasn't yours until the full & final payment was made. You agreed to show him under saddle which you have not done! I'm not arguing with you over here - a court has decided the outcome of this sorry mess. Why do you expect me to wait any longer? you really are taking the pee.
If you buy a car, break the agreement and don't pay the payments every month - it would be taken off you! I have been more than understanding - my goodness - you really do begger belief. I have proof he has covered mares and been offered at public stud, as a breeder your mother knows she cannot write out covering certs - therefore any foals will be unregisterable.

[austell]

So now i have defended myself it is an argument? you brought it on here in the first place,it turned from you 'warning' mare owners to which was unnecessary as i have said he hasnt covered any other mares apart from the one accident,and he was not offered at public stud,to insulting and slandering my mother. it says on the passport that he is on a two year lease and i was under the impression that we had the time he was on loan to pay for him, YOU said and i remember you saying it when the verbal agreement was said, that the money wasnt important that we could pay it when we could and it was the home you were concerned about. and also when we spoke about sending him back to you to sell or do whatever you told us that we wouldnt get the 2,400 back that we have already paid, so please tell us what position that puts us in when we were under the impression that we would pay for him when we could? And i am very sorry that showing wasnt our first priority jane but as you are a aware of my grandfather has terminal cancer and such was the reason for a payments to become inconsistent as my mother had to fly out to Ireland every couple of weeks,and i am also currently doing my exams, he was brought for me for the longterm But it was my intention of campaigning him this year, if he is still mine that is. and as this is a pony and not a car and no written contract was formed, i dont see how it is related? i want you to understand that it was NEVER our intention to not pay you!!!!

[crazychick]

We know from several reliable sources that he was offered at public stud, so yes this thread was set up as a warning! Your mother has not had her name mentioned. There are messages on Facebook which can and have stood up in court as a written agreement. We understand and are sorry about your grandfathers illness but before we knew that your mother ignored all forms of contact and stopped payments completely without any explanation, we are not psychic and still have our bills to pay. Also we knew your mother was on Facebook and in contact with other people whilst ignoring us. Your mother expected us to arrange transport and give you a full refund before he returned to us... Also you haven't paid the amount that you have stated, not anywhere near.

[austell]

please would you inform us of the people we have offered him at stud too? and the other mares he has covered? i completely understand that,as do we all! and she did not ask for the money back before he was sent to you,it was stated that we would not get any money back! and considering we were told the amount we had left to pay for him by you,and as the piece of paper from the court that states the amount we have to pay, im very sure that what we have paid you is correct? please tell me where it is wrong? i have no problem with the intention of this thread even though it is unnecessary, it is the point that nasty things have been said,without justification, none of this needed to be put into public view but as it was i only thought it fair to defend myself, like i said before,and we have always maintained,we will pay all of the money and would have done so without courts demanding it,and actually that fact has made it even harder to pay you,because believe me,i we had the money sitting around it would be with you now. I am sorry for this mess and to you,but i am not about to watch other people insult my mother.

[crazychick]

I am not naming names over the internet (as I never have done), there aren't that many Dartmoor mares in your area so I'm sure you can work it out or ask your mother. You have paid 6x £300, that doesn't amount to the fee you stated earlier. We purposely haven't named you or your mother, so there is no slander! Well as he was meant to be completely paid off my October 2012 at the latest you have proved you are not paying!

[austell]

im sorry either i cant count or the courts have it wrong? if what you have said is true, then what you have said we have paid adds up to 1,800 of the 3,200 which was the agreed price, then with the amount stated we pay by the courts that would compleat the payment plus costs would bring the total to 2,842 pounds (800 + 224 of costs) so please tell me how that is possible? especially as we have 7 receipts from the bank and 300 punds that was sent cash recorded delivery? so the amount we have paid comes to 2,400? we did not have a deadline in which to pay for him

[austell]

2,824*

[Deleted]

This thread was set up to warn mare owners about people like you, not to argue about the facts that you conned me into taking a well bred winning pony - you started to pay as agreed 300 a month - 6 payments later you stopped, I have never recieved any cash through the post - I have the payments through the bank on my bank statements! you ignored all my attempts to contact you - so therefore I had to go to the courts to get you to pay the money you owe - which is still not paid! I let you have this pony paying by installments at a set rate - which you did not stick too - hence court action! He came on ridden showing loan with view to a sale, not to be at stud until he was yours and paid for. I could have sold him for much more than I asked you but because your mother and I were old friends, I thought you would do as you promised and show him and pay as agreed, none of this has been done & I feel very used. THESE ARE THE FACTS & THE TRUTH.
Any foals you have created by him will not be registerable and you will have to sort that out with the mare owners - there is also the small fact that you have STILL not paid me for him - I have the proof and the court have seen that too & acted on it.