HOYS M&M Working hunter height sections

[CRNativePonies]

So i've decided to have a bit of a rant about the height sections and fence heights for the new height sections for the M&M working hunter qualifiers. I understand that they have tried to change the sections to try make it fairer for everyone. But it seems that the 'hairy' ponis (Fells, Dales and Highland) are being completely alienated from these classes! I competed at Derbyshire Festival the other day in the HOYS working hunter qualifier with my Fell. In my section out of 31 ponies only 3 were 'hairys' (3 fells) the rest were either Connemaras, new forests or welsh. The stupid thing is about these height sections is that the majority of Fells, Dales and Highland are going to fall into the not exc 143cm section or exc 143cm were they are then expected to jump 90/95cm. As stated by the Highland pony society, they should only be expected to jump 1cm higher previous to last year. Well that means these ponies are jumping about 4cm higher than expected. These hairy ponies aren't bred to jump like Connies or New forests, they aren't as athletically built so how on earth is it fair? The ponies are expected to jump 'within their breed standard' yet I personally would never expect a Fell to jump the same height as a Connemara.. In my opinion these breeds are suffering in these classes and sooner or later no one will want to enter. My Fell is very capable at jumping but surely jumping a 90cm course against breeds that are far more agile than he is, he's at a disadvantage... I really think the societies need to look at changing the sections or atleast making it fairer for the heavier, less athletic breeds. Maybe for any Highland, Fells or Dales that fall into the not exc 14cm section or the over 143cm to jump the same height as the section below (Like they did the with the Highlands and Dales in the larger height section last year)

My Fell is a very capable jumper and does well in his classes but it is really putting me off entering any more HOYS or RIHS qualifiers because of the height of the fences.. He's 13.1hh so only just misses out on going into the not exc 133cm section were he would be jumping a height that is more comfortable for him. This makes him usually one of the smallest in the class (he was the smallest pony in the not exc 14cm at Derbyshire)We're up for a challenge and expect one when competing in these qualifiers but I really think the heights he's expected to jump just takes the p*** really and makes me feel like there's no hope!

Any more views on this? I'm going to be writing to the societies and grandstand media too.
Courtney.

[beakie]

I fully agree! In exactly the same boat with a fell in the under 143cm section. Whilst he is more than capable, I can't understand why exceptions were made for hairies last year and not this year, especially as the heights have gone up!!!!!
Please keep me updated on what outcome you have when contacting the societies!

[forester]

the hairies are capable and i believe one won HOYS a couple years back!!! i would say 75cm is tooo small,

[forester]

www.horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/146359/hoys-worker-fences

[CRNativePonies]

Have emailed grand stand media, NPS and BSPS in regards to it so just waiting for a reply. Last year we fell into the not exc 138cm section were the heights of fences where 85cm which was a challenge but not as much as a struggle as the heights this year. The fences are 90cm at qualifying height plus an extra 5cm at the finals which is just far too big. Yes a fell won a couple of years ago, Brooksan Kitchener I believe but that was with the different height sections were the height of the fences at qualifying height was 85cm not 90cm... Yes I agree 75cm is too small but the breeds are only expected to jump 1cm higher than last year. Well we were jumping 85cm last year and now expected to jump 90cm! That's 4 cm higher than what's expected of them. In my eyes the Fells, Dales and Highlands are being reprimanded with these new height sections. Most of these breeds are going to fall into the 2 larger height sections which are 90cm and 95cm at qualifiers! My Fell is very capable and talented at jumping and even he is becoming over faced with these huge fences.

[forester]

i wince at 90cms with my NF let alone any bigger at the final, but im a wimp. i have my first qualifer soon, lets see if i chicken out last minute LOL

Goodluck i hope u get the reply u are hoping for, i will ask my highland not to grow over 143cm! and i dont think my fell will go over 13hh fingers crossed,

[johnson01]

Last year my Exmoor fell into the the middle section not ex 138. However he isn't built like a welsh or conni but he jumped just as good! This year we are now in the second section not ex 133 where the jumps are smaller and wer he doesn't put much effort.. Strange pony likes a big track...
Anyway I can both sides of the argument about the sections however in my opinion they have done a good job in splitting and making it fair for each breed...
I did see a highland jump an RI track at addington and my god that pony had more scope than the connis!!!

[CRNativePonies]

I agree that for some people the height sections have worked well for them. But i'm sure many people are in the same boat as me. My pony has gone from being the same sort of height as the rest of the ponies and jumping 85cm to being the smallest of the class and having to jump 90cm! He has lots of scope but he does struggle and I can tell it's knocked his confidence slightly. He over jumps everything because it isn't an easy height for him to clear :/ I'm not asking for a 5cm reduction in height, even just down a hole would make the world of difference!

[CRNativePonies]

This is the response I've had:

"The only ponies that will be jumping a higher fence this year will be those ponies between 134 and 138 cm in height. Those ponies last year would have been jumping 89cm at the final and now will be jumping 95cm.

Ponies (and I think a lot of the Fells,Dales and Highlands would come into this category) that are over 138cm will be jumping smaller fences or ones that are just 1 cm higher.

For example a pony that is 142cm last year had to jump 104cm, and this year will only jump 95cm.

A pony that is 146 would have jumped 104cm last year and this year will jump 1 cm higher over 105cm."

How's that fair on the ponies that are 134-138cm Majority of which will be Fells and the odd Highland.... Might have to consider chopping my Fell off at the knees!

[smalley]

I always thought M&M workers would be better off done on breed - at Equifest they have a fell, highland and dales worker, yes there'll be the odd hairy that can jump the bigger fences easily but they're not really built for jumping, whereas connies and D's compete successfully at BS and BE over big tracks. Wouldn't they be better splitting it by the breeds jumping abilities - Shetties, dartmoors, exmoors & welsh a's, then B's, C's and New Forests, then big haries and finally connies and D's? It's still the same number of classes but I think it's fairer that way
I've been looking at the Rydale show schedule which is still the 3 heights, but it says Highlands, fells & dales in the exc. 138 catagory jump the fences in the previous class.

[forester]

that is because NPS havent changed thier worker classes in line with PUK/BSPS but will be next year,

[serendipity]

I am hoping that the powers that be will look upon this year as a trial and have a re-think. My main concern is that it just has not worked out in terms of numbers in the classes. I have a 137 pony who jumps in the 143 cm. section. It is always without fail the largest section with the most clear rounds. At some RI qualifiers we have done this year there have been more ponies in this section than the other 3 put together. I am not objecting to the extra height that my pony has to jump - he does this easily. It's just that his chances of qualifying are considerably reduced by virtue of the numbers in the class and also the considerably more clears due to the fact that the class is now mostly made of 143 Connies etc that used to jump in the "larges" - they find this height very easy. It seems that the ponies over 133 but not over 138 have drawn the short straw all round with these new groups.

How about this for an idea to put to the decision makers:

Class 1 - Under 128; Class 2 - Over 128 and under 138; Class 3 - Over 138; Class 4 - Highlands, Fells and Dales. I think this would result in a much more even distribution of numbers, would ensure a good representation from the H/F/Ds and would be fairer all round.

[GaynorStones]

We have not done any RIs and probably wont do any hoys this year due to pony recovering from injury but from what I have seen (and correct me if I am wrong) in my section 143 (my pony is 137 section B) most of the qualifiers have been ponies that were in the large section last year

[serendipity]

You are just right!

[pipandwill]

I really am not in favour of the new height divisions, they just appear to have had no rational thinking behind it, for example, the 133-143 section could theoretically have B's, C's, small D's, New forests, Connie's, Fells, Highlands, Dales and even big exmoors.
How on earth are these meant to be judged together? They are all completley different types, they have a different way of jumping, meaning some judges will prefer the way of one to another.
I mean, whats the point in splitting these classes like the plaited classes?
It also appeared that they hadnt consulted any members to see who would be in favour or against this change.

Rant over

[dizzeerascal]

I think there is no way of pleasing everyone, last year the RI qualifiers let the HFDs jump a smaller height of fences as apparently there was such a high demand for this, however at the majority of qualifiers there were no HFDs taking advantage of this & on the rare occasion people did come forward if was usually just 1 or 2 ponies? Based on this I personally can't see there being enough demand for them to have their own separate class. Based on entries this year the new height sections seem to be fairly popular entries & ponies forward at 3 counties yesterday were huge & there was a good mix of all breeds taking part!

[GaynorStones]

Jun 15, 2013 17:23:30 GMT dizzeerascal said:

I think there is no way of pleasing everyone, last year the RI qualifiers let the HFDs jump a smaller height of fences as apparently there was such a high demand for this, however at the majority of qualifiers there were no HFDs taking advantage of this & on the rare occasion people did come forward if was usually just 1 or 2 ponies? Based on this I personally can't see there being enough demand for them to have their own separate class. Based on entries this year the new height sections seem to be fairly popular entries & ponies forward at 3 counties yesterday were huge & there was a good mix of all breeds taking part!

As you say Fiona no pleasing everyone!! Just wish Harry was back doing them!!

[serendipity]

Just because it is still popular at the moment does not mean it is fair. All we are asking for is a level playing field - That is the classes split so that overall there will be roughly the same numbers in each. It is obvious that a class for M&Ms between 133 and 143 cms is going to contain the bulk of ponies.

[CRNativePonies]

There is no question that yes, some of the fells, dales and highlands can clear the height BUT compared to connies and new forests they can not do this with as much ease as them THUS they lose style marks!! So when you look at it that way then yes they are being penalized! I just don't understand how if in the rules its how every pony 'jumps within it's breed standard' yet when would you ever expect a Fell or Highland to jump against the likes of a Connemara... Its not to do with the amount of entries, they need to look at the ratio of how many that are entered or that are qualifying are Fells, Dales and Highlands. What's the point in having it as 'Mountain and Moorland' working hunter when half the breeds aren't able to qualify. I'm completely put off from entering any more qualifiers for the time being. Not paying out £40 a class to take my pony round an impossible course. My Fell has bags of scope and loves jumping and even he has lost confidence over these big fences :/



Teddy and I at Derbyshire festival HOYS qualifier. As you can see the fence height is a struggle for him :/ It's not just the height but the spread too!

[justliloldme]

Maybe split into breed sections like the riddens though maybe go back to b & c together for workers ? Hairies though capable are never going to be as sporty as connies and bouncy welsh ........

[girly]

Jun 19, 2013 11:39:34 GMT justliloldme said:

Maybe split into breed sections like the riddens though maybe go back to b & c together for workers ? Hairies though capable are never going to be as sporty as connies and bouncy welsh ........

The problem then is the height range in some breeds. There are Connies and Foresters who are under 13hh and up to 14.2hh.

I can not see that any solution is going to create a "level playing field" some ponies are always going to be disadvantaged. The important thing is to stop constant changes because it makes it very hard on people bringing along youngsters or campaigning more than 1 pony.

It must also be remembered that the HOYS final should be for the best of the best and the height of the course and difficulty should reflect that.

[dizzeerascal]

A highland qualified today at Lincoln, & a fell qualified at 3 counties, these are the ones i know of, so they are getting the hairies through to the final in the new divisions

[CRNativePonies]

Yeah I saw the results. As far as i'm aware the Fell qualified in the under 133cm section and the Highland in the 143cm. Both of the ponies are going to be the larger heights for their sections. The main concern is for the ponies which are measuring at 134-138cm at is these ponies that appear to be penalized by having to jump 6cm higher than last year :/

[freezy]

I agree it should be not exceeding 128 for first section, then 128-138 then over... it takes too long and we are shoved in late as an after thought at most county shows.. yet we have the most entries

[GaynorStones]

I agree 4 sections are taking too long. As I said earlier we are not doing hoys this year due to pony injury but from what I have heard some classes are not finishing till very late and then people have to travel home.

Understand that a highland qual 143 section at nps25 so it appears the hairys are holding their own!

[dizzeerascal]

Yes Desmond a highland did win at area 25, it jumped a brilliant round & went on to be champion & second in the same class was a dales so the hairies are definitely doing well this year