New trends with bits in the show ring

[connemaras123]

Just wondered if this annoys other people as much as it does with me.

1. People using Double bridles which use a Wilkie bit as the bradoon

2. Tom Thumb gag type bit used with two reins to try and make it look like a pelham in flat classes, yet a normal gag with one rein would be absolutely frowned upon!!

I think the use of these is completely unacceptable, look awful and are covering up ponies that otherwise would be tanking off with riders. If the reason for these bits is for 'the look' then I think it's even worse!

[Deleted]

fully agree with you, these bits contain a strong animal because they hurt! they also cause many problems -inc: animals backing off bit - therefore not going into bridle. In the past I have taken animals in for breaking & schooling - I have had a lot with mouth related problems, have their teeth done and put them into a simple french link, ride them properly and hey presto an animal going sweetly into the bridle, tracking up well, settled. What shocks me is the amount of animals broken in these bits! goodness me, what sort of a 'mouth'will they have?

[gillwales]

As I said in a similar thread, it shows the amount of ignorance in the showing world, Judges should mark down severely to stop this practice, or better still societies should ban these bits

[09rebel99]

My mum bought my dales when he was 5. I was 10 so it would have been quite easy to put a big strong bit in to make him go correctly but I worked my back side off for a good couple of years to become a better rider and for him to go correctly in a simple french link snaffle. For our flat classes I started off in a pelham until I was good enough to ride in a double. Apart from that my pony has never had a different bit in his mouth and is 24.
I know of a riding instructor who will get everyone he teaches to put their horse in a 3 ring gag no matter what stage the rider is at. I still insist this os wrong and tbh just laziness!!
I don't believe in all these fancy bits but each to their own I suppose?

[connemaras123]

Yes I agree, really find this shocking! I see this a lot in fell classes, and I think people are just putting in the harshest bit in attempt to stop the leaning and pulling. The Wilkie combo is really so harsh because you have two bits in the mouth, one acting in the poll, one from curb and poll and then the action of pulling on the mouth too!! Our fell was terribly strong and evading bit to the point where I could not stop or get any kind of outline, so tested different bits and established that as fells have such large tongues, the pelham was putting pressure and squashing on it so much he was just compeletely uncomfortable and resisting, then put the warmblood neue Schule bit on that has a high port to take pressure off tongue... He is like a different pony completely happy and light now. People need to find out why the pony is unhappy and strong, not just whack the 'strongest' bit in! Makes me so mad that more and more people are doing it and will continue until something is done! I feel the fat pony problem has begun being tackled by judges and now I have seen a drop in the number of fat ponies, same needs to happen with these bits.

[dizzydora]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons a bit here...What are your thoughts about people using a normal double bridle but who have extremely long shanks on the weymouth and a curb chain on very tight? Surely this is worse than a simple neat tom thumb bit (which incidently has a french link type mouthpiece)and which has no curb chain to apply the extra pressure? If you look at a wilkie pelham, it is almost the same as the tom thumb, apart from it has a curb chain and a lip strap, but essentially its just about the same.

There are some bits out there that yes shouldnt be used for the show ring and are just simply a cover up and do no favours in the long run for the horse or pony, but when slating certain bits, remember that all horses and ponies arent the same and what one likes another may not, and there will be some horses and ponies out there that no matter how much correct schooling you give them, they will only like certain types of bits and these may be the ones that you dislike, so if they are, please dont go being horrible to the people as you may not be aware of what people have gone through with their horses. Perhaps if you want to say something about the bit a horse is in, try asking nice questions and suggestive ones instead of going in all guns blazing :-)

[dizzydora]

Aug 8, 2013 11:18:20 GMT 09rebel99 said:

Is the 'tom thumb' not the type mouthpiece?
So you can have lets say a fulmer snaffle with a tom thumb mouthpiece or an america gag with a tom thumb mouth piece??
I am getting really confused as it appears some people think they know what bit they have and it's not, especially after reading the other thread.
Dizzydora from what you described to me it sounds like an america gag with a french link mouth piece not a tom thumb but someone correct me if I'm wrong as I said Im really confused now :-(

You can get the mouthpiece that is on the 'original' tom thumb with any sides on it you like. I have 3 of these bits, 1) the original version, 2) one with wilkie sides 3) one with loose rings.
They all have the same french link type copper mouthpiece with the little loose rings on the link in the middle.

I'll post a picture of the original tom thumb bit for you then you can see what i mean :-)

[dizzydora]

Traditional Tom Thumb



Wilkie Tom Thumb



Loose Ring Tom Thumb



They all have the same mouthpiece, some of the pictures are taken from the front of the mouthpiece and some from the back.

The original tom thumb bits are actually very neat and tidy bits and the shanks are not very long at all, much shorter than most pelhams, so i really dont see what peoples problems are with people riding in them with 2 reins... Tin hat and run! :-)

[connemaras123]

Oh ok, I am talking about the gag type bit that I have seen with two reins, i personally think they look awful as they were meant as jumping bits really. Not to be slimmed down and a second rein added to look like a pelham.

Yes I absolutely hate ponies with huge Weymouth shanks and tight curb chains and nosebands even worse.

I recall seeing a Connemara pony at Stafford county that had its head vertical in the air and mouth open Its show, only to then hear the mother of the boy on the pony saying we need to get that curb tighter... I'm sorry, whatttt! When it came out the ring, without contact stood still it was so tight it was already resting against the ponies chin :-(

[09rebel99]

Thanks for that dizzydora. I get so confused with never having had to use any lol. I don't know where my post went though :-(
Good to have pics so people can see what we're talking about :-)

[dizzydora]

I have my Veteran Arab in an 'original' Tom Thumb with 2 reins and she is not strong or anything like that, she is just extremely fussy as to what she likes. She's been there and done it, HOYS/RIHS the lot and is a push button ride.
When she was younger she was shown in a double and was fine, but as she's got older she started to dislike metal bits so we put her in a happy mouth pelham (so bulky and ugly). Yes she was better in it but still wasn't 100%, and we tried both jointed and mullen mouth. So at the end of last year after seeing a friend selling a tom thumb we thought we'd give it a go with it having a mouthpiece we hadnt tried before and oh my goodness, she is like a different horse! She loves it and is going the best shes ever gone.

Before i went in the ring in one, i sought advice off several of my friends who judge at county level and who are on various different panels and they all said that it was absolutely fine to use it and that it was a very neat tidy little bit. The only society that you are not allowed to use it in the ring with 2 reins on is CHAPS, all the rest you are fine.

Regardless of what it was originally used for, if it is a kinder alternative to some of the horrendous pelhams and doubles that are used out there and horses are happy in it then i dont see what the problem is with it. Looks wise it looks much better than the horrible bulky happy mouth pelham that she had in previously and she's much happier not having to wear a curb chain jangling around under her chin as it was so loose :-)

[fanfarefan]

blimey riley , am i being a bit long in the tooth , but if id appeared as a youngster with one of those bits above to put in a horses mouth , i would have been shot !!!!! , where on earth has the good old snaffle gone

[dizzydora]

Sweet iron is warmer and some horses prefer this, and the loose rings in the middle help horses mouth up....what's wrong with that?? Far more strange looking mouthpieces than those above!

[gillwales]

many years ago the name tom thumb refereed to the length of shanks to a curb bit, i.e. they were short

[sarahp]

Yes, that's what I always understood it to be, never used one though. Just looked it up in my Bitting book and it quotes a Tom Thumb as a curb with a cheek length of not more than 9 cm or 3 1/2 ".

While looking, I was distracted by some odd snaffles and found a wonderful quotation. It is in connection with a nasty looking piece of equipment designed to stop the worst puller and says "You can always stop a horse - the problem is to get him to go again". Very true!

New designs of bits of course appear, but the mechanics of how they work doesn't change, and that is something we should all understand before choosing any bit for a horse.

[pipandwill]

I think the tom thumb bits with 2 reins look very neat... dont quite know what the problem is with them?

One bit I cant stand however, is the Swales. Yukk, horrid bit

[waspblue]

Agree re the Swales - dreadful to see as a ridden bit, it is for driving primarily from my understanding. I think the only way to stop this sort of thing is as said previously for judges to mark down severely any pony ridden in super strong bits and for Society's to specify which bits may be used in which classes and which ones are unacceptable. I was recently put off buying a pony that was presented to me in a swales, as I felt it reflected a lack of correct schooling.

[BSH]

Latest spot ....... open working hunter wearing a double made up of a Weymouth and ..... A Myler universal!

[reachforthestars]

My boy is really very strong when he wants to be, especially In canter and when following others. It would have been easy to put him in a stronger bit but his mouth is so soft that he doesn't even like a copper loose ring snaffle, he has to have a happy mouth loose ring snaffle. He is a lot better now and it's taken a long time but just making him work from behind has helped so much.
I have tried him in a jointed Pelham once and he was good but that Pelham will be only for shows.

[snowflake]

Our novice SHP has taken ages to find a bit she's comfortable in, & the only one she's happy in is the Tom Thumb. She won't 'tank' off in another bit, she just isn't happy in them & we found she goes the best in a Tom Thumb.....we certainly haven't done it for 'fashion' & personally I would rather see a Tom thumb than a Swales any day.

[skye]

Aug 8, 2013 11:48:19 GMT dizzydora said:

I have my Veteran Arab in an 'original' Tom Thumb with 2 reins and she is not strong or anything like that, she is just extremely fussy as to what she likes. She's been there and done it, HOYS/RIHS the lot and is a push button ride.
When she was younger she was shown in a double and was fine, but as she's got older she started to dislike metal bits so we put her in a happy mouth pelham (so bulky and ugly). Yes she was better in it but still wasn't 100%, and we tried both jointed and mullen mouth. So at the end of last year after seeing a friend selling a tom thumb we thought we'd give it a go with it having a mouthpiece we hadnt tried before and oh my goodness, she is like a different horse! She loves it and is going the best shes ever gone.

Before i went in the ring in one, i sought advice off several of my friends who judge at county level and who are on various different panels and they all said that it was absolutely fine to use it and that it was a very neat tidy little bit. The only society that you are not allowed to use it in the ring with 2 reins on is CHAPS, all the rest you are fine.

Regardless of what it was originally used for, if it is a kinder alternative to some of the horrendous pelhams and doubles that are used out there and horses are happy in it then i dont see what the problem is with it. Looks wise it looks much better than the horrible bulky happy mouth pelham that she had in previously and she's much happier not having to wear a curb chain jangling around under her chin as it was so loose :-)

I too use the traditional Tom thumb, the mare loves this bit and as above we have different variations of the mouth piece, Pelham, snaffle, Wilkie. Unfortunately the one she goes best in is the traditional format. Its not down to a lack of schooling. By any means. I had the argument with chaps over this as did Peter wilkinson. I was told if I put a curb chain on I could use it. However, it's not worth the Agro, which really is sad. We have to settle for something that's second best. What is the problem of using a bit where the pony travels forward freely, lightly and happily?? I can give her the tiniest half half and she responds. Any other bit takes much stronger aids. She doesn't need a curb in that set up and in my eyes of it used correctly there shouldn't be a problem in using it. There are far worse bits permitted.

[mischiefmuffett]

And its people like the original poster that irritate the life out of me! Sorry!
If you don't know why a horse isin a certain bit keep your bloody nose out and concentrate on your own horses!
My mare is in a double with a wilkie for now . She hates the Normal snaffle/bridoon she leans and throws her head, have tried different mouthpieces, she hates a pelham, she hates a rugby pelham, the only bit she likes is a wilkie. So until I can afford hilary vernon the bitting specialist to come out, that's what she will stay in!
I have worked SO HARD to get my horse that 'needed shooting' to where weare today and its SO disheartening and angering to see posts like this from people who haven't got the decency to stop and think 'oh, maybe they have tried other bits'.
So dissapointed to read this and I will continue to hold my head high and be pleased that after a year of bitting troubles I have finally found something(for now) that she likes.and hope there are no narrow minded individuals like you stood outside the ring.
She's done 7 shows, champion 6 times, reserve supreme and a supreme to her name so can't be that bad a bridle combination eh!

[gillwales]

Sept 7, 2013 7:33:04 GMT mischiefmuffett said:

And its people like the original poster that irritate the life out of me! Sorry!
If you don't know why a horse isin a certain bit keep your bloody nose out and concentrate on your own horses!
My mare is in a double with a wilkie for now . She hates the Normal snaffle/bridoon she leans and throws her head, have tried different mouthpieces, she hates a pelham, she hates a rugby pelham, the only bit she likes is a wilkie. So until I can afford hilary vernon the bitting specialist to come out, that's what she will stay in!
I have worked SO HARD to get my horse that 'needed shooting' to where weare today and its SO disheartening and angering to see posts like this from people who haven't got the decency to stop and think 'oh, maybe they have tried other bits'.
So dissapointed to read this and I will continue to hold my head high and be pleased that after a year of bitting troubles I have finally found something(for now) that she likes.and hope there are no narrow minded individuals like you stood outside the ring.
She's done 7 shows, champion 6 times, reserve supreme and a supreme to her name so can't be that bad a bridle combination eh!

It's people like you that need to LEARN HOW BITS WORK! It is not just a matter of switching bits until you find one you can cope with , it is BASIC SCHOOLING! You obviously have no idea how bits work or the purpose of a double bridle. The curb bit is meant to lower the head and the bradoon is there t raise the head, YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITH A WILKIE! The bits should be used independently of each other. So either your mare is not properly schooled or your riding is not up to standard, take your pick.

[sarahp]

I do so agree that the level of ignorance on the action of bits nowadays is frightening, especially given the increasing number of designs available. That also illustrates too the level of ignorance of correct basic schooling as the two go together, leading to the current culture of thinking any means to the perceived desired end is OK, even if it only looks sort of right instead of BEING right.

Why do you think the rules regarding permitted bits for dressage are there? It's to encourage the correct and progressive training of horses on the flat - ANY horses and ponies for whatever discipline.

[ponymum]

Aug 8, 2013 11:34:08 GMT connemaras123 said:

Oh ok, I am talking about the gag type bit that I have seen with two reins, i personally think they look awful as they were meant as jumping bits really. Not to be slimmed down and a second rein added to look like a pelham.

Yes I absolutely hate ponies with huge Weymouth shanks and tight curb chains and nosebands even worse.

I recall seeing a Connemara pony at Stafford county that had its head vertical in the air and mouth open Its show, only to then hear the mother of the boy on the pony saying we need to get that curb tighter... I'm sorry, whatttt! When it came out the ring, without contact stood still it was so tight it was already resting against the ponies chin :-(

Normally - I would agree with you. Hpwever we are one of those who show our pony in the traditional tom thumb as posted by dizzy dora, with 2 reins in the ring. The reason for this , and no our pony will not tank off. She is incredidbly fussy , doesnt require any poll action on any bit, and at home we ride with our rein on the middle , not the curb rein. She doesnt take to swopping bits at all , in the 3yr she has been backed , we have used 3 bits, 2 having the same mouthpiece...its not always to cover up a problem...we are trying to get her going in a pelham but this could be a long drawn out process. Please dont just jump tp conclusions...if you want to see our pony going in her bit look on the picture post , under Zeferrelli - Tell me your thougths x

[connemaras123]

I was simply giving my opinion on bits I personally don't like in the show ring (I don't like the look of a gag type bit with two reins and the double with Wilkie is just not how a double was ever supposed be used for obvious reasons), I'm not narrow minded at all. My pony usually does workers and I can only get him to go well in a Wilkie, he's awful in a pelham. So a solution for me in the open riddens might be to put him in a double with a Wilkie and just ride off the Wilkie. However, that's not how it's meant to be used. So I spent months testing different Pelhams with different mouth pieces to find one he liked which was warmblood show pelham because it doesn't squish his tongue. So don't assume I am narrow minded or jump to conclusions.my pony is extremely difficult in his mouth, but I persevered and found the right bit for him that in my opinion looks right in the ring too. No need for people to start having a personal dig at me, I just wanted others opinions on those bits! I didn't aim for this to cause personal bit*hy comments!

[Louise Dixon]

Aug 8, 2013 19:18:07 GMT fanfarefan said:

where on earth has the good old snaffle gone

In my tack room!

[cyffryn]

Very interesting comments. I think the crux of this is you must understand the way these bits work and how your horse/ pony is made up. Bits have moved on and become more refined from the days of a choice between an eggbut or loose ring snaffle which is good if you take the time to understand the mechanics and adapt them to the animal.
My pet hate is Wilkie or hanging snaffles in lead rein and first ridden classes

[sarahp]

Seems to me that many people don't understand the basic actions of the old simple stuff, never mind trying to understand the modern refinements.

[hs]

I think from reading these posts that people use these bits as short cuts to get a horse to go in a certain way. It can take years to get a horse to the stage where in dressage it would be going in a double bridle and the level of schooling would be of a much higher level than expected in the show ring. I think part of the problem is people do the open show classes on 4 and 5 year olds so perhaps they are just not ready to go in a normal double bridle as their schooling is not as advanced yet as they would normally need to be. I remember when I was doing pony club as a child that the double bridle and spurs were considered only suitable for the advanced riders and horses schooled to a higher level. I think the show ring has changed that with many people and horses whose riding and level of education may not be up to the level traditionally required for use of more sophisticated bits and aids.

However to get the two rein look required for the open show classes they have to choose something else less refined and once you get used to that bit and have successful placings then people don't bother to try and refine the schooling or improve their riding so they can go well in the double.

I do think there are times and places for the stronger bit especially to be safe. I do dressage in a hanging cheek snaffle but use a beval for sponsored rides/jumping/hacking when my pony is more likely to be a bit more tricky to stop or buck with excitement but I can still have a light contact most of the time as 99% of the time he will be fine.

If a show horse is expected to be a safe, well schooled, easy ride then they should be able to be ridden in the more basic bits and horses and ponies that have to be ridden in something more severe should be penalized as if you can't control your horse in the group canter unless it has a severe bit then perhaps it is not suitable as a show horse and would be better off doing a different job, in the same way as horses that cannot be ridden in snaffles or doubles do not do dressage.

However if showing is just about an "appearance" of being well schooled, responsive, easy ride then it does not matter what bit is used as long as the horse or pony looks a certain way, and people have to accept that showing is about appearances and that if someone needs to use a certain bit to get the pony or horse to look a certain way that is desirable to the judge and the bits used are within the rules then they should not be penalized for using them.

I also wonder if people are spending a lot of time and money on competing if perhaps they do not have the time or money to invest in having lessons to improve their riding or looking at alternative ways of schooling to produce a horse that is is classically trained and that looks and goes well in the more conventional bits.