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Post by shakira on Mar 16, 2014 20:17:27 GMT
Need some advice/opinions guys.
My mare is 14 and has previously bred one foal before I owned her. I have done remarkably well in the ring with her and have had her graded with CHAPS and BSPA as I decided I would love a foal of hers. A few years ago I tried with two stallions. The first was by AI and she never took. I spent a heck of a lot of money on scanning etc at my vets however did learn a few things (her follicles get to about 5.5cm and she'll hang on to them for a few days and won't respond to being jabbed off and also she gets a build up of uterine fluid after covering and needs flushing) The second stallion that same year we tried naturally thinking maybe she needs the full monty for her hormones to work correctly and take. We never actually got to flush her out on the try we had as fell over a bank holiday.
So this year I have plucked up the courage to try again. Have a super stallion I'm using and is being done naturally. I have borrowed a pony stallion to use to tease her with as she won't show her seasons otherwise and last Monday she came in. We covered her Wednesday and Friday and I took her to the vets Saturday morning to have her scanned and flushed if necessary (which it was-a lot of fluid). On scanning the vet said her uterus felt very soft like she was still in season however when he went to flush her he said her cervix was quite hard and barely open. The scan showed no signs of having gone off nor any largish follicles. So the question is, did he miss the follicle and she has gone off (hence the hard, closed cervix) or is she having an abnormal season. I will find the answer out to that one tomorrow when I tease her again with the pony. My vet has said if she is still in not to cover her this season and just monitor it.
Money unfortunately for me isn't a bottomless pit for getting her in foal. I would love her foal dearly but I've already spent in excess of £500 on scanning/flushing the other year so yes I want to be sensible. Being that I know she builds up fluid has anyone got a mare similar to mine in foal without constant scanning/flushing after covering? This is something the stallion owners have suggested but really and truthfully could she hold an embryo is she gets so much fluid?
So frustrated with it all already and it's only March!
Any help/advice appreciated.
Thanks in advance
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Post by gillwales on Mar 16, 2014 20:42:13 GMT
Add up how much money you have spent. What could you have purchased with that??
Do not get me wrong, as a retired stud owner I know the satisfaction of breeding your own stock however no matter how good the mare and stallion are there is no guarantee that the off-spring will be good.. there is that gamble to it!
When you put fertility problems into the mix, in my opinion the odds just do not add up, plus if you get a filly that could inherit the mare's problem.
This may not be what you want to hear... sorry but good luck with whatever you do x
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Post by lisadundee on Mar 16, 2014 20:56:18 GMT
I know we have already exchanged pm's but I forgot to say we had one very similar, vet also said she was full of fluid and she didn't show her seasons at all, I managed to judge when I thought she was in but she wouldn't stand for the stallion so I twitched her and covered her and only did it the once. The vet scanned her not in foal and I sold her only for her to produce a cracking filly the following year!! Typical, I believe she need catching right at the back end of her season as she was just going off and I know of a few mares like that.
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Post by lisadundee on Mar 16, 2014 21:01:40 GMT
Try go with your gut instinct and don't rely too much on vets x
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Post by shakira on Mar 16, 2014 21:28:50 GMT
Add up how much money you have spent. What could you have purchased with that?? Do not get me wrong, as a retired stud owner I know the satisfaction of breeding your own stock however no matter how good the mare and stallion are there is no guarantee that the off-spring will be good.. there is that gamble to it! When you put fertility problems into the mix, in my opinion the odds just do not add up, plus if you get a filly that could inherit the mare's problem. This may not be what you want to hear... sorry but good luck with whatever you do x Thanks, I do appreciate your honesty. I just don't know whether to carry on with out getting her scanned and flushed or keep doing it really! As I say it all stacks up money wise at the end of the day! x |
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Post by shakira on Mar 16, 2014 21:31:42 GMT
I know we have already exchanged pm's but I forgot to say we had one very similar, vet also said she was full of fluid and she didn't show her seasons at all, I managed to judge when I thought she was in but she wouldn't stand for the stallion so I twitched her and covered her and only did it the once. The vet scanned her not in foal and I sold her only for her to produce a cracking filly the following year!! Typical, I believe she need catching right at the back end of her season as she was just going off and I know of a few mares like that. Thanks Lisa. Sorry to hear about your mare! That's shocking! I've heard of that happening with dogs but never horses :/ She is such a pain. She shows her seasons when we have 'proper' boys about the yard and is so easy to cover with. As I said above it's just weighing up do I carry on flushing/scanning or do I just keep trying naturally and hope x |
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Post by lisadundee on Mar 16, 2014 22:13:39 GMT
Well hopefully you will get some more good opinions on here x
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Mar 17, 2014 9:40:01 GMT
Vets used to use a technique for mares known to produce lots of fluid whereby after covering they were given oxytocin to cause them to expel the fluid, but it had to be done while the foetus was still in the fallopian tube and had not yet migrated to the womb. I can't remember the exact timings I'm afraid, but the vet should know! Worth an ask, cheaper than scanning and flushing. I had one mare who had several foals using this technique.
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Post by shakira on Mar 17, 2014 14:06:43 GMT
Vets used to use a technique for mares known to produce lots of fluid whereby after covering they were given oxytocin to cause them to expel the fluid, but it had to be done while the foetus was still in the fallopian tube and had not yet migrated to the womb. I can't remember the exact timings I'm afraid, but the vet should know! Worth an ask, cheaper than scanning and flushing. I had one mare who had several foals using this technique. The vet did give her some oxytocin to get her to help push any more fluid out after he'd washed her out. Also gave her some broadspectrum anti biotics internally. |
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 17, 2014 16:30:22 GMT
Well mine never got washed out, just the oxytocin to expel the fluid.
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Post by shakira on Mar 17, 2014 22:13:38 GMT
Well mine never got washed out, just the oxytocin to expel the fluid. Thank you. Will run that one past my vet. Did she take? |
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Post by deucoch on Mar 18, 2014 8:22:28 GMT
I had a young mare i couldn't get to take one year. It might not be the same as this case, but, she was in season for a long time, often 10days.
Normally when covering inhand, i would have covered from day 3 every other day, but the vet recommended leaving it as late as day 7 of season and she did take.
Covering too early made her pool fluid.
Could you speak to previous owner who did manage to get her infoal? They may be able to share a technique they used.
Best of luck and i hope you get your much wanted foal.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 18, 2014 10:20:58 GMT
Yes she did, as I said above. She went away to stud, very good stud owners and stud vet, fertile and polite stallion and had I think four foals using this technique. She did cycle normally though, although had her foal heat two days after foaling, which caught me out until I worked out what was going on! It was some time ago though, late 1980s/90s, and maybe vets were more inclined to less intervention than they are now that scanners etc are routine. But it worked for my mare.
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Post by shakira on Mar 18, 2014 16:52:34 GMT
I had a young mare i couldn't get to take one year. It might not be the same as this case, but, she was in season for a long time, often 10days. Normally when covering inhand, i would have covered from day 3 every other day, but the vet recommended leaving it as late as day 7 of season and she did take. Covering too early made her pool fluid. Could you speak to previous owner who did manage to get her infoal? They may be able to share a technique they used. Best of luck and i hope you get your much wanted foal. Thanks. I brought her from Germany and I have tried tracing her last owners but have come to a dead end there. Her seasons are usually normal hence thinking this is a transitional season (she's currently day 9). I think though with her fluid history we are going to just try and cover her tail end of her season. |
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Post by shakira on Mar 18, 2014 16:59:55 GMT
Yes she did, as I said above. She went away to stud, very good stud owners and stud vet, fertile and polite stallion and had I think four foals using this technique. She did cycle normally though, although had her foal heat two days after foaling, which caught me out until I worked out what was going on! It was some time ago though, late 1980s/90s, and maybe vets were more inclined to less intervention than they are now that scanners etc are routine. But it worked for my mare. As with mine she USUALLY cycles normally! Ah I really hope my vet will agree to that. |
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Post by brt on Mar 19, 2014 9:02:13 GMT
Yes she did, as I said above. She went away to stud, very good stud owners and stud vet, fertile and polite stallion and had I think four foals using this technique. She did cycle normally though, although had her foal heat two days after foaling, which caught me out until I worked out what was going on! It was some time ago though, late 1980s/90s, and maybe vets were more inclined to less intervention than they are now that scanners etc are routine. But it worked for my mare. As with mine she USUALLY cycles normally! Ah I really hope my vet will agree to that. I would just tell your vet you want to try this, you have taken his advice on everything else, time he tried something you suggest. Surely worth a try ? Good Luck |
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Post by lisadundee on Mar 19, 2014 10:00:45 GMT
We have another mare Lexi, we bought her as an 18 year old broodmare and when I looked in to her passport she had been to France and holland, she was owned by some top welsh studs and full derwen bred, however I contacted three of the previous studs who owned her who all confirmed she had only ever had one foal abroad and despite trying for years no one could ever get her in foal, they had tried numerous stallions, A.I, natural and had even been to Liverpool for for full investigations and tests but they found nothing wrong with her, apparently she wouldn't even stand for a stallion after a while.
We bought her and when we picked her up we could clearly see she was in season, we took her straight to the stallion we were using, she stood for covering and we left her there for more coverings and she scanned straight in foal and produced a stunning filly, we left her empty the following year and then covered her with nache last year and she took straight away again and is due in May. I can't help but think sometimes less intervention where possible is better xx
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Mar 19, 2014 11:50:53 GMT
I was lent a stallion some years ago who was known to have been declared infertile abroad - the owner did know and told me but we thought it worth a try as he was lovely and beautifully bred. Vets advice is to cover very sparingly for best results, so we covered 3 of them IH and as little as possible, but I did turn one out with him as he was used to running out with mares and not happy on his own. Guess which was the only one to foal? Yes, the one he ran out with.
On the other hand, once I had finished breeding from the mare I was talking about above, she lived out all year round with my stallion and never foaled again. She needed the treatment.
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Post by shakira on Mar 19, 2014 13:39:06 GMT
As with mine she USUALLY cycles normally! Ah I really hope my vet will agree to that. I would just tell your vet you want to try this, you have taken his advice on everything else, time he tried something you suggest. Surely worth a try ? Good Luck Too right!  |
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Post by shakira on Mar 19, 2014 13:44:47 GMT
We have another mare Lexi, we bought her as an 18 year old broodmare and when I looked in to her passport she had been to France and holland, she was owned by some top welsh studs and full derwen bred, however I contacted three of the previous studs who owned her who all confirmed she had only ever had one foal abroad and despite trying for years no one could ever get her in foal, they had tried numerous stallions, A.I, natural and had even been to Liverpool for for full investigations and tests but they found nothing wrong with her, apparently she wouldn't even stand for a stallion after a while. We bought her and when we picked her up we could clearly see she was in season, we took her straight to the stallion we were using, she stood for covering and we left her there for more coverings and she scanned straight in foal and produced a stunning filly, we left her empty the following year and then covered her with nache last year and she took straight away again and is due in May. I can't help but think sometimes less intervention where possible is better xx I do totally agree Lisa. My vet talked about me bringing taking her back to be scanned AGAIN to make sure no more fluid or any infection. I said no as for one I just feel it's OTT and just spending money where it isn't needed. When I tried getting her in foal in 2011 we spent a lot of time scanning before being covered (as first trys were by AI) and even after being flushed the following times she was scanned she never had any fluid or anything to worry about. She just seems to accumulate alot after covering. I know it cost me a lot of money trying in 2011 but one thing is for sure I know my mare, how her cycles work. Like now, day 10 she's still fully in season and standing this isn't normal for her hence thinking it's just too early and this is a transitional season. Everyone says about 2011 being a bad year too so praying this is our year. |
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Post by shakira on Mar 19, 2014 13:46:56 GMT
I was lent a stallion some years ago who was known to have been declared infertile abroad - the owner did know and told me but we thought it worth a try as he was lovely and beautifully bred. Vets advice is to cover very sparingly for best results, so we covered 3 of them IH and as little as possible, but I did turn one out with him as he was used to running out with mares and not happy on his own. Guess which was the only one to foal? Yes, the one he ran out with. On the other hand, once I had finished breeding from the mare I was talking about above, she lived out all year round with my stallion and never foaled again. She needed the treatment. I think I'm going to try 3 more seasons...try flushing out on one, oxytocin jab (if the vet will agree) on another and then just cover every other day on the next and no flushing or anything after and see what happens. I can only try!  |
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Post by lisadundee on Mar 19, 2014 13:58:19 GMT
We also cover twice with certain mares for example cover her and walk her round for 10 minutes and then give her an hour and cover again
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Post by shakira on Apr 20, 2014 16:23:30 GMT
Thought I'd give a little update. The last season I was writing about lasted 19 days so definitely a transitional season. She is on her next season at the minute and I had her covered on day 5 & 7 and went to the vets yesterday morning (day 8) to be scanned and flushed and she again had fluid and had a 4.5cm follicle. We know from scanning in 2011 she gets up to at least 5.5cm before ovulating. Also on a positive note my vet now seems to believe the reason she is building fluid is that she her cerivix isn't dilating as it should. It was only open about 1cm so at least I know now why we are getting it. Vet has suggested covering again tomorrow and back to be scanned and flushed again on Tuesday. Costing £80 a time at the vets as the oxytocin and broad spec antibiotics on top but I have since decided this is going to be my last try with this mare so prepared to give it the best shot.
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Post by shakira on Apr 22, 2014 19:45:42 GMT
Had her recovered last night and she stood but not as great as usual so positive. Took her to the vets this afternoon for scanning and flushing and she has ovulated and my vet believes within the last 12 hours so very positive. It was a different vet at my practice to the one I see but he also knows her full story as my usual vet liases with him about it. When he felt her cervix he is pretty sure she suffered some trauma to it during foaling when she had her foal in the past and has built up scar tissue on/near it making it fibrostic and not able to open like it should. He has had experience with Thoroughbred mares with this problem and they have managed to take in foal with the after covering care we are doing so fingers crossed and 16 days and counting  |
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Post by lisadundee on Apr 22, 2014 20:23:21 GMT
Hope it works out for you x
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