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Post by H&h on Sept 4, 2014 11:36:13 GMT
Thank you h&h for reporting on the competitor berating the judge at the summer champs. I was shocked that the grandfather had done this bearing in mind not 3 weeks prior his granddaughter was supreme at the RIHS on a wrong leg! Obviously ok for the judging to be bad as long as it's in their favour
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Post by Nottherebut on Sept 4, 2014 11:58:59 GMT
I wasn't at the Champs but a friend told me of this incident. Firstly I beleive there are no circumstances in which it should be acceptable to berate a judge in the ring.However I don't think a wrong leg is comparable with bucking (I was told the pony at the champs bucked more than once in front of the judge and that they were big bucks but stand to be corrected ). A wrong leg, quickly corrected, is a blip which many judges are prepared to forgive if they think the pony is outstanding. I do think a pony would be lucky to get away with it at RIHS Championship level but that's showing!
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Post by Wewasthere on Sept 4, 2014 19:00:00 GMT
It was not beneficial for the said grandad to complain about the class at the champs as his jockey down the line that day, he observed the class as a genuine spectator that day,he has years of experience and said enough is enough and how could the said pony win the class after bucking and humping as bad as it did, and if you had been there you would have realised that everyone around the ring thought the same
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Post by catkin on Sept 4, 2014 20:00:59 GMT
On a related point, I was v disappointed that just two main sections were covered show ponies and WHP - what about the SHPs. I did skim read it, so I maybe I should check again!
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Post by m1hht on Sept 4, 2014 21:08:40 GMT
On a related point, I was v disappointed that just two main sections were covered show ponies and WHP - what about the SHPs. I did skim read it, so I maybe I should check again! Funny I thought the same
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Post by sowasi on Sept 5, 2014 7:54:54 GMT
As usual the 'rumours' grow and grow! We were also in the ring and although people might not agree with the placings and marks (happens all the time) the winner did not bronk; buck all the way round the ring - I saw it hump on it's canter circle. It is always amazing how the stories get expanded on!
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Post by iwas on Sept 5, 2014 8:59:03 GMT
i saw it hump and buck several times but thats showing for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by marks on Sept 5, 2014 9:47:13 GMT
maybe if the marks had been 60/40 and not 50/50 this might not have happened - did any of the above people who are worried over this , write in to say no to the change? also how do we know what marks it got , maybe the conf judge had it miles in front , also it is a 14.2 novice ,
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Post by ponymum on Sept 5, 2014 12:53:07 GMT
I think we need to also look at how the judges are trained! Maybe if we all understood how marks are deducted , we could then agree and put in letters to support unfair marking of shows....for example a friend of mines pony was unplaced in her class at the champs , went beautifully , no wrong legs, head tossing, bucking etc...., edited to add, even an eminent producer and other strangers were patting her on the back saying she had won....she wasnt even placed and when she got her marks , she got 25!!!! Where did 25 marks go to warrant that? Are the performance judges knocking marks off for Type>>> As as far as I am concerned the type mark is down to the conf judge! Which I think leads to a question...."why do the judges even need to stand together to watch the go round? Conferring and giving each other an idea of what the other likes , can lead to scores being fudged to get the desired result...Im all for the judges only coming together once the class has finished and presentation of the rosettes are about to commence.....I think this may alter things !
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Post by sowasi on Sept 5, 2014 14:30:29 GMT
marks is right - it got the highest conformation mark by miles and the judges also pulled so was obviously top choice for both. It did not have top ride mark. We have all been there - showing is subjective we may not agree with our marks (we have been baffled by some of our ride marks) but I would not challenge a judge in public. However I do wish there was some way sometimes of getting feedback on marks. Trouble is by the time you look at them class is well over and judges have disappeared, I also suspect if you did ask you would just get a bland answer or be labelled a trouble maker!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Sept 5, 2014 15:07:49 GMT
Should a ride mark be a question just of avoiding doing anything wrong for which to deduct marks, or should there be a positive take on it - does it go correctly, soft, working from behind in self carriage with correct bends or is it tight, tense and resisting, for example?
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Post by Onion Bajhi on Sept 5, 2014 15:20:20 GMT
I have noticed a lot of what I call tactical marking this year where one judge give a top mark 5 plus marks above second place to give their choice a good fist of wining . Sad but as someone once said to me you've got to have tough skin in showing and if you haven't got tough skin start showing mice. Pity the winners show wasn't filmed because if it was it would be nice to see.
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Post by willyymint on Sept 5, 2014 15:38:46 GMT
H&H is becoming boring it doesn't report sensitive issues in a way that gives the reader a thorough grasp of the problem. Ie over height horses, obesity etc. for eg it was reported that a judge said he would always put an obese horse with good confirmation above a horse which had an ok confirmation but was of correct weight???
It's coverage of showing is pretty poor Equifest was reduced to approx 2 pages despite its size and popularity as are Hoys and Olympia. Can understand them not wanting to turn over there entire issue to these events but surely there's enough material to be spread over 2/3 or even four issues particularly as from October onwards the showing world semi hibernates, it's coverage of showing at Olympia last year was a joke.
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Post by JudgeMe on Sept 5, 2014 19:28:18 GMT
Ponymum and SarahP both make good points.
I do definitely think that some judges of the ridden show in pony classes where there is a separate conformation judge are marking largely on type rather than on performance and way of going. One sees this frequently in pony classes where the judge does not actually ride the exhibits, and especially in classes judged by breed experts who are not necessarily riders. I've observed that in horse classes this happens much less often because the judge actually rides the exhibits and one often sees lower quality animals come up the line because they have given the judge a good, well-mannered, balanced and enjoyable ride.
I also very much agree with SarahP about there being much more to the ridden show than the simple question of technical 'errors' such as striking off on the incorrect lead. An incorrect lead, quickly corrected, is a matter of a couple of marks at most, whereas for me, being a judge who actually rides, there are far more important things to consider in the ridden show: manners, balance, carriage, expression, responsiveness, attitude, way of going for the breed or type, fluency of transitions both upward and downward, being on the correct bend, and actually showing all paces including the walk.
I was judging at a show last weekend where the competitor placed 6th questioned me on this very subject. She wanted to know why she was placed below competitors who had struck off on an incorrect lead. I don't mind being questioned because the answer helps competitors to understand that a wrong leg is not the be all and end all.
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Post by catkin on Sept 5, 2014 20:05:10 GMT
I have said it many times before, but I just don't like marks. Classes at their best have one judge, boldly, calmly rewarding what they see and like on the day. Why can't we go back to to the old-fashioned way for big classes where good shows were stripped and others not? I do judge and I find marks very, very hard to manage - and yes, I am concentrating! It's especially hard when judging with someone else, you have no idea (most of the time) how they will 'use' their marks and it can be incredibly frustrating if you are on conformation and the ride judges uses hardly any range of marks for very different levels of performance, for example.
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Post by ponymum on Sept 5, 2014 20:42:18 GMT
But Catkin...why should you need to know what range of marks the other judge is using? If you are the conf judge, you should be judging the conf type and manners of the pony infront of you! What the other judge marks is irrelevant as they are judging performance ! This is my point!The 2 judges should not need to confer on the ponies in the go round as they are both judging and marking different elements of the show.
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Post by Philippa on Sept 5, 2014 21:39:21 GMT
But Catkin...why should you need to know what range of marks the other judge is using? If you are the conf judge, you should be judging the conf type and manners of the pony infront of you! What the other judge marks is irrelevant as they are judging performance ! This is my point!The 2 judges should not need to confer on the ponies in the go round as they are both judging and marking different elements of the show. I agree with this too.
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Post by sjw87 on Sept 5, 2014 22:30:07 GMT
I agree but I get what catkin is trying to say - if there is no standardised marking (eg. in jumping where everyone starts on 0 faults and will get 4 faults for a pole down) then a judge using the full range of marks will have more impact on the overall placing than the other judge. It doesn't matter which section they are judging, they can influence the decision more than their intended 50% by using the range of marks more extensively.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by Philippa on Sept 6, 2014 5:43:25 GMT
I agree but I get what catkin is trying to say - if there is no standardised marking (eg. in jumping where everyone starts on 0 faults and will get 4 faults for a pole down) then a judge using the full range of marks will have more impact on the overall placing than the other judge. It doesn't matter which section they are judging, they can influence the decision more than their intended 50% by using the range of marks more extensively. Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards Yes I know what you mean and agree. But then when a judge does use the full range of marks there's an outcry!!!! It's a lose lose situation, unless you're the winner!!!!
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Post by chloesmum on Sept 6, 2014 8:00:29 GMT
I understand what catkin is saying - if one judge doesn't spread their marks and the other does it can result in a result where one section has been 'weighted' more than the other - negating the 50/50 split. (To a certain extent I think that is what happened in the class being discussed). Also agree with sarahp's comments. I was a Yes voter for points when they were introduced as thought they would be more transparent but now with the hindsight of experience over the years would prefer to see the old system reintroduced. Interestingly at BSPS this year they did go back to the old system for some classes, however the downside was riders/ponies could not leave the ring as there was also a final walk round for placing. So there were some complaints about this where people were competing in other rings - no win situation but at least an example of where BSPS is trying to listen to members and experiment. I do think however it would be impossible to lose marks in Heritage qualifiers where the classes are so huge but in where classes are maybe 12 or less I would much prefer 1 judge and no marks, use the go round and pull in and maybe move ponies up the line or down after show.
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Post by catkin on Sept 6, 2014 9:40:18 GMT
Yes, I probably didn't explain well enough, the weighting is exactly what I am talking about. I believe judges should be independent to a large extent BUT, if for example, a pony has been very naughty in its show and the ride judge only knocks it by say 5 points and it had v good conformation (that you have rightly rewarded) it is still disappointing as the conformation judge, when that animal perhaps comes higher than it should. Whilst you are responsible for only half the marks, you do want the right winner. Bear in mind both judges access the initial go round. I see what you mean on larger classes but I remember being very fairly judged with 50 odd back at Ponies UK in the old days with a front and back line. There is no easy way, but I am not sure we have it entirely 'right' at the moment. This is not a whinge but a genuine desire to keep evolving the sport we love.
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Post by serendipity on Sept 6, 2014 18:29:50 GMT
I have said it many times before, but I just don't like marks. Classes at their best have one judge, boldly, calmly rewarding what they see and like on the day. Why can't we go back to to the old-fashioned way for big classes where good shows were stripped and others not? I do judge and I find marks very, very hard to manage - and yes, I am concentrating! It's especially hard when judging with someone else, you have no idea (most of the time) how they will 'use' their marks and it can be incredibly frustrating if you are on conformation and the ride judges uses hardly any range of marks for very different levels of performance, for example.
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Post by serendipity on Sept 6, 2014 18:31:42 GMT
I so agree with Catkin about going back to one judge but I am afriad it will never happen because it would take too long and shows would not be able to take as many entries - I'm afraid cash is king.
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Post by ponymum on Sept 8, 2014 8:41:49 GMT
One judge will eradicate tactical marking though!
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Post by what about on Sept 8, 2014 11:15:06 GMT
I dont think having just the one judge would be anyless tacticle... I suggest 2 judges, that dont need to confer on the go round, they can watch separately -steward of ride judge to make note of any concerns on go round. Not pulled in any order at all ...then marked accordingly for their section...bringing together the total at end.
I have heard of less experience judges, voicing there preferance on animals on go round to fellow judge - who agree, pulled then in preferance only to be absolutely marked down n out of top placings by judge who hadnt voiced their choice!!! They dont need to identify their preferance...
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Post by quite right on Sept 8, 2014 11:25:13 GMT
I dont think having just the one judge would be anyless tacticle... I suggest 2 judges, that dont need to confer on the go round, they can watch separately -steward of ride judge to make note of any concerns on go round. Not pulled in any order at all ...then marked accordingly for their section...bringing together the total at end. I have heard of less experience judges, voicing there preferance on animals on go round to fellow judge - who agree, pulled then in preferance only to be absolutely marked down n out of top placings by judge who hadnt voiced their choice!!! They dont need to identify their preferance... Completely agree
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Post by ponymum on Sept 8, 2014 13:15:51 GMT
Me too!
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Post by catkin on Sept 8, 2014 18:08:56 GMT
Yes, but surely the go round has to count for something and if you don't have an initial 'pull' its pretty hard to remember when you have loads on a class!
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Post by What about on Sept 8, 2014 20:10:34 GMT
Yes, but surely the go round has to count for something and if you don't have an initial 'pull' its pretty hard to remember when you have loads on a class! Please re read what I wrote... it does state for the ride judge to liase/ make a note with their steward any concerns from the go round, this should then be reflected in their overall marks for the ridden section only...hope this is better understood.. This is how I judge !
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Robert Parker-Jones
Guest
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Post by Robert Parker-Jones on Sept 9, 2014 8:50:58 GMT
Do away with marks altogether! Call ponies in an order following the go round, this reflects the go round! After each individual performance either create a front line (good shows) and a back line (less than good shows) OR move the ponies up and down the line following the performance (immediate reward or penalty). Then conformation followed by a final walk round. Animals then placed taking in to account the go round, show, conformation and final walk round! I would prefer judges, judging on their own but if two necessary then ask one of the judges for the name of a co judge so that they judge together rather than opposing each other. There isn't a perfect system, all are open to misuse if not used properly!
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