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Post by chloesmum on Mar 14, 2016 15:58:17 GMT
Blimey!! We all moan about show judges and connections but dog showing must be worse! Apparantly the gun dog winner the Gordon Setter (lovely dog) is owned by the sister of the judge who made it section winner and put through to the Best in Show!! OH always tells me dog showing is more fixed than horse showing think I have to believe him!
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Post by maxandpaddy on Mar 14, 2016 16:54:47 GMT
Don't get me started on the GSD winner....!!!
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Post by Philippa on Mar 14, 2016 18:14:12 GMT
We show dogs. Yes, it's far far worse than ponies. Ha ha x
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kirky
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Post by kirky on Mar 14, 2016 19:36:02 GMT
GSD winner disgusting  |
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Post by judyh on Mar 14, 2016 20:22:50 GMT
The best in show was beautiful. I thought well deserved.
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Post by Philippa on Mar 14, 2016 20:38:25 GMT
GSD winner disgusting Yes I agree and was quite difficult to watch, however, I have been on their website and seen her hip scores etc and what she has won previously through her career and am not convinced that that was not a true reflection of that dog. I really wouldn't be surprised if the dog hadn't been 'got at' her gait was somewhat 'drunken' not unlike something which had been drugged. I'm not saying this is the case but I would not be surprised if something comes out in the next few days. I may be completely wrong of course and it may just be that all her winning has been under less than straight judges. |
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Post by Philippa on Mar 14, 2016 20:43:29 GMT
The best in show was beautiful. I thought well deserved. Not my type but you can't take away it being a deserved win. I loved the whippet and the spitz. |
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Post by mcnaughty on Mar 15, 2016 10:46:45 GMT
Agree about the drunk german shepherd. It seemed to be dragging its hind legs but it was difficult to see in the short clip the TV showed. If we do take it at face value though that is a terrible result and the Kennel Club may have a lot more questions to answer!
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Post by sageandonionagain on Mar 19, 2016 16:40:45 GMT
I loved the winner and the second. Thoroughly enjoyed the show but the GS definitely needs looking into.
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Post by gillwales on Mar 19, 2016 17:48:57 GMT
The Kennel Club really needs to get it's act together and suspend breeds from Crufts until deformations are bred out of them and that Judges perform their roll in a responsible way. I find it unbelievable that any Vet would consider Craghaire Catoria healthy. It has happened in a lesser way to some types and breeds in ponies which I have bred, this is down to what is called "line-breeding" a polite term for in-breeding or incest. For every good point you breed into a line you also breed in a weekness. Why Judges/ breeders and those that show German Shepard Dogs thing it is acceptable to have such a sloping back, and having watched the video the winner was not the only one like that, beggers belief, it would be impossible for animals with this conformation to be able to do a days work. Other breeds are also deformed; such as Peeks, Bulldogs (which are unable to givve birth naturally, and that alone should make alarm bells ring.) Chaverlier Spaniels, in fact any breed which has a "squashed" nose as this leads to breathing difficulties. Also those which promotes a "domed" head as this can lead to brain problems. Dogs are al working creatures and should be capable of doing a days work. Come on breeders you know that these exagerated traits are wrong. Breed for soundness and temperament. Kennel Club do not register any puppies that are in-bred, suspend those breeds that are unsound from Crufts until the ones being shown have correct conformation. Train your Judges to reject those like this animal. And for the rest of us, don't buy them, that is the surest and quickest way of changing things.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 19, 2016 19:00:56 GMT
Line- or in-breeding will "fix" traits into the resulting stock that is in the original parent stock, whether good or bad. Our domestic breeds will have been produced in the first place by heavy inbreeding, this is fact rather than emotion.
I couldn't agree more about the need for animals to be sound and capable of doing a job, whether ponies or dogs.
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Post by 19simeon56 on Mar 19, 2016 19:06:43 GMT
I can remember being told a few years ago 'if it works it's line breeding - if it doesn't it's in-breeding'! The problem isn't just confined to dogs and ponies,it's everywhere, to a greater or lesser degree,in the animal world (but at least in the farming world anything not good enough goes into the meat chain). It's also not helped by those people a friend of mine described as 'the arty *arty' brigade who have an ideal in their mind and no thought to the long term consequences of their actions - which are usually paid for by the unfortunate people who don't know any different and who end up buying the deformed offspring.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Mar 19, 2016 20:03:44 GMT
Yes, the terms are often used like that, but correctly line breeding is to a single common ancestor with the rest of the pedigree being out bred, whereas inbreeding is to more than one common ancestor.
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Post by gillwales on Mar 19, 2016 20:06:23 GMT
Line- or in-breeding will "fix" traits into the resulting stock that is in the original parent stock, whether good or bad. Our domestic breeds will have been produced in the first place by heavy inbreeding, this is fact rather than emotion. Im aware of that but it is not a practice that needs to be continued if we want healthy dogs, ponies, horses or any other animal. |
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Mar 19, 2016 20:14:16 GMT
Careful line breeding can be very useful to fix type, but the main point is to not use a common ancestor with a major fault, if the fault isn't there then line breeding will not produce it in the first place, only make it more common, or in some circumstances more pronounced, it depends on the genetic characteristics of the individual fault. Some can be single gene only, usually the really nasty ones, and some polygenic, ie governed by more then one gene.
A totally different problem can be inbreeding depression, when carried on for too long it causes such more general things as low fertility rates and unthriftiness.
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Post by mcnaughty on Mar 21, 2016 13:53:53 GMT
I have only, this weekend, got round to watching the whole clip again and I would personally like to see video from earlier judging as in the group stage she looked sick. Coat looked staring, she looked very uncomfortable, sort of tucked up?? Personally dont think we should be slating the dog too much unless we all know the facts. I am surprised the TV took such a strong stance without first investigating earlier video evidence. Makes you wonder whether the dog was poisoned - it happened last year didnt it??
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Post by lochielass on Mar 21, 2016 14:23:58 GMT
We show dogs. Yes, it's far far worse than ponies. Ha ha x What breed of dogs do you show? I would love to see pictures. |
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Mar 21, 2016 15:46:43 GMT
I seem to remember hearing on the Crufts coverage this year that the dog that was poisoned last year must have picked it up at home before it came, not at the show. They can tell through pm testing.
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kirky
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Post by kirky on Mar 21, 2016 16:17:37 GMT
I don't think it was drugged as I am sure the owners would have made a huge point about it to explain the way the dog was going. You can't remove the fact that it has been bred so roached backed that its back paws were dragging on the floor and that would suggest problems with the spine. There is a petition on change.org you can sign "KC to ban excessively sloping backs in German Shepherd Dogs". Get signing it may make a difference to these poor dogs.
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Post by Philippa on Mar 21, 2016 16:24:32 GMT
We show dogs. Yes, it's far far worse than ponies. Ha ha x What breed of dogs do you show? I would love to see pictures. We show pugs, miniature pinschers & Boston Terriers. |
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Post by mcnaughty on Mar 22, 2016 14:26:16 GMT
I don't think it was drugged as I am sure the owners would have made a huge point about it to explain the way the dog was going. You can't remove the fact that it has been bred so roached backed that its back paws were dragging on the floor and that would suggest problems with the spine. There is a petition on change.org you can sign "KC to ban excessively sloping backs in German Shepherd Dogs". Get signing it may make a difference to these poor dogs. I do believe you are right. That judge needs to be hauled up before a panel to answer a few 'why' questions! |
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Post by Philippa on Mar 22, 2016 19:48:13 GMT
I don't think it was drugged as I am sure the owners would have made a huge point about it to explain the way the dog was going. You can't remove the fact that it has been bred so roached backed that its back paws were dragging on the floor and that would suggest problems with the spine. There is a petition on change.org you can sign "KC to ban excessively sloping backs in German Shepherd Dogs". Get signing it may make a difference to these poor dogs. I do believe you are right. That judge needs to be hauled up before a panel to answer a few 'why' questions! Having seen further reports I also agree it wasn't doped. What a shame, maybe I was just hoping something as appalling as that couldn't possibly have won. I'm amazed though at looking at this dogs show record how well it has actually done in the ring so maybe it's not just the crafts judge who should be taken to task. All the other judges who have contributed to its show career and it's crafts qualification should be made to justify their findings. The good thing about dog showing is that the judge has to write a critique about the winning dog at least, usually the first 2 so it's easy for the Kennel club to go back and see what's been written about her. The dog has also been bred from. Criminal. |
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Post by danichapel on Mar 26, 2016 7:53:59 GMT
I feel the Kennel Club has a lot to answer for, they need to be bought kicking and screaming into the 21st century, they do not seem to be answerable to anyone, in this day of sometime ridiculous Health and Safety regulation in our world, there is neglect in the animal world. RSPCA do their best but do not appear to have that much 'clout', animal welfare in this country does need looking at does need consideration, does not seem adequate for today
Just my opinion
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Mar 26, 2016 10:46:03 GMT
I do believe you are right. That judge needs to be hauled up before a panel to answer a few 'why' questions! Having seen further reports I also agree it wasn't doped. What a shame, maybe I was just hoping something as appalling as that couldn't possibly have won. I'm amazed though at looking at this dogs show record how well it has actually done in the ring so maybe it's not just the crafts judge who should be taken to task. All the other judges who have contributed to its show career and it's crafts qualification should be made to justify their findings. The good thing about dog showing is that the judge has to write a critique about the winning dog at least, usually the first 2 so it's easy for the Kennel club to go back and see what's been written about her. The dog has also been bred from. Criminal. If you see the run off for BOB, both the dog and bit*h were of a very similar type. According to friends who used to show and breed GSD's there were a number of flatter backed animals in the classes through the day, but they were not his type. I can't not comment on that as I was not there. Whatever way you look at it, it is very sad for the breed. Surely it is up to the breeders to get their house in order worldwide, not just the Kennel Club - i have a friend who has GSD - she had to put a bit*h down last year for temperament issues, she was extremely well bred, but was totally unpredictable and also quite roach backed. Her other bit*h she still has is not as well bred, but has much better back and much better temperament! |
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Post by gillwales on Mar 26, 2016 12:13:26 GMT
Having seen further reports I also agree it wasn't doped. What a shame, maybe I was just hoping something as appalling as that couldn't possibly have won. I'm amazed though at looking at this dogs show record how well it has actually done in the ring so maybe it's not just the crafts judge who should be taken to task. All the other judges who have contributed to its show career and it's crafts qualification should be made to justify their findings. The good thing about dog showing is that the judge has to write a critique about the winning dog at least, usually the first 2 so it's easy for the Kennel club to go back and see what's been written about her. The dog has also been bred from. Criminal. If you see the run off for BOB, both the dog and bit*h were of a very similar type. According to friends who used to show and breed GSD's there were a number of flatter backed animals in the classes through the day, but they were not his type. I can't not comment on that as I was not there. Whatever way you look at it, it is very sad for the breed. Surely it is up to the breeders to get their house in order worldwide, not just the Kennel Club - i have a friend who has GSD - she had to put a bit*h down last year for temperament issues, she was extremely well bred, but was totally unpredictable and also quite roach backed. Her other bit*h she still has is not as well bred, but has much better back and much better temperament! I noted that too, the winner was not the only one with a roach back. The Kennel Club MUST look at the deformaties which have been breed into certain breeds and do their best to eradicate them. |
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Post by 19simeon56 on Mar 26, 2016 20:35:37 GMT
It's not just the KC that needs to do something.Like I said in an earlier post,there are a certain element of society who have an 'ideal' in their mind when it comes to breeding and unfortunately those are often the people who put themselves forward to become judges,whether we are judges or not,we all have our preferences (it wouldn't do if we all liked the same thing)but at the end of the day we should all be looking at improving the breed/s we love not accentuating certain aspects, ie.the 'squashed' face of the Peke or the dish of the Arabian (along with the level topline). In my book temperament and conformation should be priority when breeding,not what is fashionable at the time and like a previous poster said 'it is up to breeders to get their house in order' it has got nothing to do with the breed societies, they're only there to take money off the breeders to issue registration documents/passports - it would be too controversial to tell the breeders they needed to change!
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Post by gillwales on Mar 27, 2016 17:45:12 GMT
19simeon56 I do agree however if these people did not win prizes or the breed was suspended from showing then it would put people off of buying them, if the breeders cannot sell deformed puppies then they will change what they breed. Hit them in their pocket and folks if you do know someone who is thinking of purchasing a German Shepard or any of the other breeds that have health problems talk to them about it so they are fully informed, hopefully they will look for the healthier specimins if they want those breeds.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Mar 27, 2016 17:51:56 GMT
Trouble is it's a catch 22 - if these animals are doing well in the showring, people (not everyone I know) think that they are the best .....
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Mar 27, 2016 18:33:34 GMT
19simeon56 the breed societies (for ponies anyway, I'm no expert on the KC) do write the breed standards to which breeders are supposed to conform. These are always open to some degree of personal interpretation and in some cases traits are bred to extremes which is where problems occur. I totally agree with you re temperament and conformation in ponies being priority though, and are what I try to breed for myself.
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Post by viking on Mar 27, 2016 20:33:54 GMT
The KC can write a standard, but if breeders breed something different and judges award that animal, is not the KC's fault.
Same applies to standards laid down for native ponies. If breeders don't abide by the standard and judges award winning tickets, the Breed Standard is at risk by default.
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