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Post by claired on Apr 25, 2016 9:10:20 GMT
Most (I would imagine all, although I don’t know) society rules state that as a competitor you must not show under a judge who has bred your horse / pony or made some other financial gain – sold it, stood the stallion, previously owned the dam etc etc, or you know the judge or some other connection. but where do you draw the line as a competitor, given that most societies are a fairly small world. What is acceptable and whats not these days ?
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Post by ponymum on Apr 25, 2016 11:02:45 GMT
Minefield !
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 25, 2016 12:42:06 GMT
Ditto ponymum !
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Post by flee on Apr 25, 2016 13:26:14 GMT
What is acceptable and whats not these days ? Extremely difficult one to answer but ,having trawled through previous threads of a similar vein , I entered all available data into my trusty laptop and it eventually spat out the following calculation . Who you know + who knows you + the thickness of your skin X which end of the line you're stood at = judges/competitors behaviour acceptable Who you think knows someone else + ringside gossip + sour grapes/paranoia x which end of the line you're stood at = judges/competitors behaviour not acceptable This is not a definitive formula as there are innumerable other factors which you may , or may not , believe influence outcome depending on your personal opinion ie Home Produced or Professionally Produced ( the much touted 'Face Factor ' theorum ) , whether you are a friend of the aggrieved or the accused ( the 'Righteous Bias' factor ) and the extremely popular , but as yet unproven , 'Chinese Whisper' equation . Hope this helps |
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Post by gillwales on Apr 25, 2016 13:57:43 GMT
you read the rules for the class and society concerned and follow those. End of. However if there is a conection between your animal and the judge what satisfaction is there in winning or being well placed... you would always wonder. I will say that has a stallion owner I might have never seen a pony by him if out of a visiting mare so therefore has a Judge I would not know and would expect the competitor to discount themselves in that situation
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Post by claired on Apr 26, 2016 10:23:20 GMT
you read the rules for the class and society concerned and follow those. End of. However if there is a conection between your animal and the judge what satisfaction is there in winning or being well placed... you would always wonder. I will say that has a stallion owner I might have never seen a pony by him if out of a visiting mare so therefore has a Judge I would not know and would expect the competitor to discount themselves in that situation Ah yes, but is that reality though ? Hypothetical question then: Judge buys horse with view to standing as a stallion. Decides against it a few weeks later, has horse gelded and sells to current owner 8 years ago. Horse in judges ownership for less than 2 months. Horse is a bought to show as a breed, so opportunities fairly limited anyway and pool of judges for specific breed also fairly limited. Likelihood of meeting again quite high. Some years after purchase and no contact between owner and judge, horse is presented in hand in a breed class judge is last minute replacement for - owner checks with breed society and is told go ahead and compete. Horse does well. Judge acknowledges owner politely but no 'small talk'. A couple of years later, horse again shown in breed class under saddle (qualifying class). Judge (confo) again acknowledges owner and is clearly pleased to see horse out under saddle. Ride judge and confo judge both like horse and horse is placed well but does not win. Confo judge says its very nice to see horse out under saddle and wishes owner well for future. Some months later owner sees judge at a show which judge is officiating at but not judging. Quick hello, how is horse, looks well, both hope each other is well and move on - small talk at the best. Present situation - horse is now registered to compete in other qualifying classes. Judge is also on panel for this particular society and happens to be confo judging a class that owner would like to enter (limited opportunities in local area for such classes sadly). Given the sale of horse was 8 years ago and judge has previously judged horse, albeit it in breed classes, is it now inappropriate for owner to enter class ? |
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 26, 2016 10:42:30 GMT
Just a pondering that I had whilst reading the above post -
Showing is notoriously bad for entries closing well in advance and not allowing substitutions. Often judge changes are not well communicated - what if the new judge means that the competitor shouldn't have entered? Shouldn't they be allowed to substitute a different animal if possible or swap classes? Or if they are unaware of the judge change until they arrive at the show, what about the expenses incurred to get there and find they now aren't eligible? What about the other way around if someone hasn't entered due to conflict of interest and then the judge change after the closing date means that they could have entered?
Also, whilst all horses competing will now have passports, for adult horses not passported at birth, the passports may not show the breeder or all the owner's. Or sometimes people don't get their details put in the passport if they only own it for a short time. In these cases, the current owner may genuinely not know who could have a connection with the horse.
As gillwales rightly says - would a stallion owner realistically be able to identify a horse by their stallion which they have never seen before or similar scenarios? If the current owner was not the breeder then they may not know the judge's connection either.
There are plenty of honest judges out there who will judge what they see in front of them.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by bigmama on Apr 26, 2016 18:18:00 GMT
you read the rules for the class and society concerned and follow those. End of. However if there is a conection between your animal and the judge what satisfaction is there in winning or being well placed... you would always wonder. I will say that has a stallion owner I might have never seen a pony by him if out of a visiting mare so therefore has a Judge I would not know and would expect the competitor to discount themselves in that situation Ah yes, but is that reality though ? Hypothetical question then: Judge buys horse with view to standing as a stallion. Decides against it a few weeks later, has horse gelded and sells to current owner 8 years ago. Horse in judges ownership for less than 2 months. Horse is a bought to show as a breed, so opportunities fairly limited anyway and pool of judges for specific breed also fairly limited. Likelihood of meeting again quite high. Some years after purchase and no contact between owner and judge, horse is presented in hand in a breed class judge is last minute replacement for - owner checks with breed society and is told go ahead and compete. Horse does well. Judge acknowledges owner politely but no 'small talk'. A couple of years later, horse again shown in breed class under saddle (qualifying class). Judge (confo) again acknowledges owner and is clearly pleased to see horse out under saddle. Ride judge and confo judge both like horse and horse is placed well but does not win. Confo judge says its very nice to see horse out under saddle and wishes owner well for future. Some months later owner sees judge at a show which judge is officiating at but not judging. Quick hello, how is horse, looks well, both hope each other is well and move on - small talk at the best. Present situation - horse is now registered to compete in other qualifying classes. Judge is also on panel for this particular society and happens to be confo judging a class that owner would like to enter (limited opportunities in local area for such classes sadly). Given the sale of horse was 8 years ago and judge has previously judged horse, albeit it in breed classes, is it now inappropriate for owner to enter class ? If a society's rules say a judge cannot judge a horse he/she has previously owned or that a competitor may not show a horse/pony under a judge who has previously owned that horse/pony, then the answer to your question is that you must certainly not enter that same horse/pony under that judge. The fact that you have done so in the past is irrelevant. |
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Post by gillwales on Apr 26, 2016 18:55:12 GMT
Obviously today with passports everyone can see all of the previous owners, the same has previously on registration certificates, therefore if you see that someone has owned a horse then you should not compete under that Judge.
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Post by claired on Apr 27, 2016 10:49:37 GMT
Just a pondering that I had whilst reading the above post - Showing is notoriously bad for entries closing well in advance and not allowing substitutions. Often judge changes are not well communicated - what if the new judge means that the competitor shouldn't have entered? Shouldn't they be allowed to substitute a different animal if possible or swap classes? Or if they are unaware of the judge change until they arrive at the show, what about the expenses incurred to get there and find they now aren't eligible? What about the other way around if someone hasn't entered due to conflict of interest and then the judge change after the closing date means that they could have entered? Also, whilst all horses competing will now have passports, for adult horses not passported at birth, the passports may not show the breeder or all the owner's. Or sometimes people don't get their details put in the passport if they only own it for a short time. In these cases, the current owner may genuinely not know who could have a connection with the horse. As gillwales rightly says - would a stallion owner realistically be able to identify a horse by their stallion which they have never seen before or similar scenarios? If the current owner was not the breeder then they may not know the judge's connection either. There are plenty of honest judges out there who will judge what they see in front of them. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards |
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Post by claired on Apr 27, 2016 10:49:59 GMT
I guess if you enter in good faith and then the judges change to cause a conflict of interest you have the option of with drawing and requesting entry refunds. Surely this must be allowed, given you would be following the rules of the society. However, if you have no idea until you get there I wonder what most people would do. There is a difference between deliberately breaking the rules and circumstances outside of the competitors control that put them in that position.
I suspect there are many grey areas in between too.
I wonder how many people break the rules or would see them as less of an issue as in the same sort of scenario as mentioned above.
I’m not pointing the finger at anyone or casting aspertions, just thinking of a situation that arose and wondered what I would do in the same situation.
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Post by catkin on Apr 27, 2016 11:23:38 GMT
GillWales has got it right, I think. If competitors (and judges) stick to the rules surely that is all we can expect? I believe the onus is on the competitor a lot of the time, particularly when an animal could present that was, for example, a foal when last owned by a judge. How could they recognise it instantly? Judges looking at entry lists worries me more. They need to judge what is presented to them on the day. For last minute changes, then yes, ask for a refund and put it down to bad luck.
I do not believe we can effectively legislate for all connections. Where do you begin and end? Hopefully, we go out to compete to have fun. That includes being sociable. So being on nodding acquaintance with someone who judges or even on talking terms should reasonably be considered acceptable. Otherwise, are we expected to be anti-social, make no new friends etc. We all have our own set of morals to apply to situations. Some will push these to the very limit of the rules, but so long as they are within the rules, the rest of us just have to shrug it off. If they are happy competing in this way, that's up to them. Most judges I know, myself included, would far rather not be put in difficult situations. Our only real guidance can be the rules.
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Post by gillwales on Apr 28, 2016 14:21:36 GMT
You are not allowed to see a catalogue prior to judging therefore it would be impossible to see if an entrance was by a stallion you have stood or if it is something you have bred. A competitor will know if the judge has bred thhe anial due to the prefix, it is really down to the competitor and not the judge to make sure there is no connection, however if the Judge does realise there is a comprimise; which can happen in a championship there are ways around this by getting someone else to step in and mark the animal.
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Post by 5874julie on Apr 28, 2016 19:59:35 GMT
i once put a pony onto a professional yard for just a couple of weeks schooling. a few months later one of the yard owners stepped in at the last moment as a substitute judge in a class we had entered. he refused to judge our pony, but asked another judge to judge just our pony while he judged the rest. at least this meant my daughter could compete although it was a bit weird. however, for me the irony was that he hadn't actually liked our pony when it was on his yard so was highly unlikely to be biassed in our favour in the ring. Yet several of the child jockeys in the same class had regular lessons at his yard! but that was ok, apparently. lots of grey areas!
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Post by 5874julie on Apr 28, 2016 19:59:55 GMT
accidentally posted twice x
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 29, 2016 11:28:22 GMT
i once put a pony onto a professional yard for just a couple of weeks schooling. a few months later one of the yard owners stepped in at the last moment as a substitute judge in a class we had entered. he refused to judge our pony, but asked another judge to judge just our pony while he judged the rest. at least this meant my daughter could compete although it was a bit weird. however, for me the irony was that he hadn't actually liked our pony when it was on his yard so was highly unlikely to be biassed in our favour in the ring. Yet several of the child jockeys in the same class had regular lessons at his yard! but that was ok, apparently. lots of grey areas! I believe the ruling with instructors/trainers that are also judges is that group/training sessions are allowed but if your jockey has an individual lesson/private lesson that will mean you cannot compete under that trainer/judge. |
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Post by mandmgirl0164 on Apr 30, 2016 7:50:13 GMT
Obviously today with passports everyone can see all of the previous owners, the same has previously on registration certificates, therefore if you see that someone has owned a horse then you should not compete under that Judge. If only it was this straightforward - not every transfer of ownership is recorded on passports/registration documents for future information. Often happens with animals bought in with the intention of quickly being sold on - keeps costs down. |
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