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Post by dale on Apr 27, 2016 19:26:40 GMT
If you have a pony produced and it wins prize money who has that money the owner or the producer just interested
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Post by oldschooler on Apr 27, 2016 19:59:44 GMT
I will also be interested to hear other people's views. I have let my rider have the prize money when picked up at the show, but have kept it myself when posted by the show to me. My gut reaction is that as I am paying such a lot of livery, any prize money should be go towards paying this, as I am far from rich. However not sure if there is a tradition of giving it to the rider.
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Post by dale on Apr 27, 2016 20:14:06 GMT
That's what I would of said after all owner pays for everthing and there pony at the end of the day
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Post by not-a-charity on Apr 27, 2016 20:30:08 GMT
it goes to owner - or goes towards the fees
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Post by oldschooler on Apr 27, 2016 20:42:16 GMT
it goes to owner - or goes towards the fees Glad you have said this, I will pick up any prize money myself in the future. It is an expensive situation, and every penny helps.
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lovebird
Full Member
SandbankEarlybird & Freya, Evening Performance HOYS 2013
Posts: 348
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Post by lovebird on Apr 27, 2016 20:58:16 GMT
Prize money should go to the owner, as above every penny counts.
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Post by interesting topic on Apr 27, 2016 21:39:26 GMT
Well I have had ponies produced by 2 different m and m producers over the last 10 years and not once have I been offered any of the prize money ! At first I was very suprised to say the least at one nps summer show my pony won three championships and although I would have happily given some of the prize money it would have been nice to have been offered it. I am I hope a good owner pay my bills on time give nice christmas presents etc but the prize mpney hax always been a bit of a bug bear. The only reason I haven't said anything is not wanting to rock the boat or being too soft. Im posting as a guest as I'm a member on here but then you'd all know who the people are !
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Post by Philippa on Apr 28, 2016 5:15:45 GMT
Well I have had ponies produced by 2 different m and m producers over the last 10 years and not once have I been offered any of the prize money ! At first I was very suprised to say the least at one nps summer show my pony won three championships and although I would have happily given some of the prize money it would have been nice to have been offered it. I am I hope a good owner pay my bills on time give nice christmas presents etc but the prize mpney hax always been a bit of a bug bear. The only reason I haven't said anything is not wanting to rock the boat or being too soft. Im posting as a guest as I'm a member on here but then you'd all know who the people are ! Really??? That's out of order. If you are paying them to do a job then the prize money is something that should go to you. If someone rode your horse occasionally not for financial gain and won then I'd say that was a little different and let them keep it or certainly split it.
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Post by mandmgirl0164 on Apr 28, 2016 7:15:00 GMT
Well I have had ponies produced by 2 different m and m producers over the last 10 years and not once have I been offered any of the prize money ! At first I was very suprised to say the least at one nps summer show my pony won three championships and although I would have happily given some of the prize money it would have been nice to have been offered it. I am I hope a good owner pay my bills on time give nice christmas presents etc but the prize mpney hax always been a bit of a bug bear. The only reason I haven't said anything is not wanting to rock the boat or being too soft. Im posting as a guest as I'm a member on here but then you'd all know who the people are ! Make sure your animal is entered in your name, the prize money cheque should then come to you. May well be cheaper if producer enters your animal in their name if they are a member of a society or show society eg Yorkshire Agricultural Society for Great Yorkshire Show, but prize money will then be in name of producer.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Apr 28, 2016 7:53:45 GMT
As normally owner breeder of ponies I have shown for me I do like to see them entered in my name so that I get the credit, too often from my point of view it's all about the producer not the pony in the publicity afterwards.
I have once been know to stomp across the ring to correct the announcer who put over the PA that my pony belonged to the producer and ask her to announce the correct owner which she did, not something I'd normally do but it was the second time that year for the same pony and I'd complained (politely, afterwards, to the society sec) the first time. In my defence too I'd come straight from a very emotional funeral to watch the pony compete and was still all in my funeral blacks.
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Post by NLI on Apr 28, 2016 8:01:12 GMT
We had our ponies produced for a few years with one of the big teams, prize money always had to go to the jockey I'd of liked to query this but as someone else said you dont want to rock the boat or seem tight. Often the producer did the entries for some of the shows so I imagine they had the 'name cheque is to be made out to' put in their name, if we did them of course it did come to us. But 9/10 they had the prize money!!
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Post by Who rides? on Apr 28, 2016 9:32:05 GMT
This is an interesting topic as often these sort of things are not openly discussed! I think some might depend on whether your pony/horse is ridden by you or the producer. We have always ridden our ponies when they have been produced and I also do all the entries so we collect/get sent prize money. I have been a little surprised just how much some 'producers/professional riders' charge to ride in the ring so glad we ride our own! My favourite last year was finding out how much a very well known 'professional rider' charged and that it was more if they won! Well surely that is what you are hopefully paying them to do! On a rare ocassion when we have had to ask someone else I would always give the rider the prize money, when we have ridden for someone else again they have always offered all or half the prize money. I do have a feeling that if you are with a producer who produces and rides your animal in the ring then that's what you are paying for and if you are paying entries I think I would expect the prize money. Best advice is to check on what terms are before placing animal in their yard so everyone is clear.
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Post by catkin on Apr 28, 2016 14:35:10 GMT
Owner has prize money, what they do with it is then up to them.
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Post by PLP on Apr 28, 2016 14:43:49 GMT
cat among the pigeons here but i really don't agree that owners/breeders should get "the credit" if a pony who they've all too often done bugger all with themselves gets shipped off to producers who put all the work in!! Why on earth should they get all the credit if said pony wins- they haven't worked all hours, riding, training, mucking out, feeding, show prep, show travel etc etc etc. its the producers and producers grooms who have done that! Okay i understand that this is a service they provide and take a decent fee too and it can be expensive if you choose to have your pony produced but why should you take credit for how well your pony does in this case? You shouldn't. Your name should go down as owner/breeder and then the producer should take the credit and be able to use their success with said pony as an advertisement for their business so to speak to get show off their talents and successes.
One more thing that particularly gets me too is when you buy a pony from a breeder as a youngster- you have minimal contact from said breeder then a good few years later when you've broke the pony in and it goes well, starts getting decent results you still don't hear a willyie bird off the breeder then you qualify the pony for HOYS/RI and all of the sudden the breeder is all over you like a rash and pushing their name about to anyone who will listen that they bred the pony..... sorry you weren't interested the last 5 years so don't expect all the credit now! Far too many people want credit for something they've not been actively involved in.
On a more personal note, i have a riders who rides for me- they pay zero towards the keep of any sort or diesel or anything they do however pay entries (I'm happy to pay but they won't let me!) the rider keeps everything they win on the pony, whether that be a bag of sweets/£100/a hoof pick or just rosettes. They see it as i keep them fit, pay all costs, i bath plait and do all show prep including driving them around to shows so the least they can do is pay entry fees.
In the case of big producers charging big fees i think prize money should go to the owners all else to the producers like feed vouchers etc I also think every time the owners pony is entered to compete it is under their name as the owner and ridden by "...producer name.." However if you are getting the producer to do the entry fees for you so you save some cash then i think the producer should take any prize money won.
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Post by Philippa on Apr 28, 2016 15:09:29 GMT
WOW PLP. Controversial. I'm awaiting the onslaught. I agree with some of your points but disagree with others. But then healthy discussion and individual opinions are never a bad thing!!
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 28, 2016 15:12:08 GMT
My thoughts are that it should go to whoever has paid the entry fee (or paid by proxy eg. The producer has paid and then invoiced the owner to reclaim the cost).
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 28, 2016 15:16:10 GMT
Just to add, regardless of any 'taking credit' issues, the information given on the entry form/provided to the public either in a catalogue or by tannoy should be accurate.
Inaccuracies can cause confusion, potentially leading people to believe that there is some kind of intentional misrepresentation going on.
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Post by gillwales on Apr 28, 2016 15:42:42 GMT
PLP, shame you dont say that when logged in! Actually a breeder does a lot of work and puts in a lot of skill, it is not just luck when you breed, it takes a lot of work.. how do imagine ponies and horses come into creation? A breeder a mare for at least 12 monts prior to a foal getting ont othe ground, it is then cared for and trained for the next 4 years, funnily enough during this time they need mucking out, grooming etc, even if someone buys a foals from you at weaning a lot of work goes into that animal.. or should, before it goes off to it's new home. I know very few breeders that are not happy to be kept in touch with their babies, I stopped breeding years ago, but am still in contact with some of my babies, I will go and support them at shows when possible and have visited some in their new homes; mileage allowing. I am there for advice, guidence and support if required and asked for.
On the issue of the OP, I have had ponies produced, paid all of the costs involved and have been given the prize money, however this is something that needs to be sorted out before the pony goes into the yard.
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Post by Philippa on Apr 28, 2016 16:34:52 GMT
PLP, shame you dont say that when logged in! Actually a breeder does a lot of work and puts in a lot of skill, it is not just luck when you breed, it takes a lot of work.. how do imagine ponies and horses come into creation? A breeder a mare for at least 12 monts prior to a foal getting ont othe ground, it is then cared for and trained for the next 4 years, funnily enough during this time they need mucking out, grooming etc, even if someone buys a foals from you at weaning a lot of work goes into that animal.. or should, before it goes off to it's new home. I know very few breeders that are not happy to be kept in touch with their babies, I stopped breeding years ago, but am still in contact with some of my babies, I will go and support them at shows when possible and have visited some in their new homes; mileage allowing. I am there for advice, guidence and support if required and asked for. On the issue of the OP, I have had ponies produced, paid all of the costs involved and have been given the prize money, however this is something that needs to be sorted out before the pony goes into the yard. I do agree with your points here GW.
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Post by honeypot on Apr 28, 2016 16:39:23 GMT
cat among the pigeons here but i really don't agree that owners/breeders should get "the credit" if a pony who they've all too often done bugger all with themselves gets shipped off to producers who put all the work in!! Why on earth should they get all the credit if said pony wins- they haven't worked all hours, riding, training, mucking out, feeding, show prep, show travel etc etc etc. its the producers and producers grooms who have done that! Okay i understand that this is a service they provide and take a decent fee too and it can be expensive if you choose to have your pony produced but why should you take credit for how well your pony does in this case? You shouldn't. Your name should go down as owner/breeder and then the producer should take the credit and be able to use their success with said pony as an advertisement for their business so to speak to get show off their talents and successes. One more thing that particularly gets me too is when you buy a pony from a breeder as a youngster- you have minimal contact from said breeder then a good few years later when you've broke the pony in and it goes well, starts getting decent results you still don't hear a willyie bird off the breeder then you qualify the pony for HOYS/RI and all of the sudden the breeder is all over you like a rash and pushing their name about to anyone who will listen that they bred the pony..... sorry you weren't interested the last 5 years so don't expect all the credit now! Far too many people want credit for something they've not been actively involved in. On a more personal note, i have a riders who rides for me- they pay zero towards the keep of any sort or diesel or anything they do however pay entries (I'm happy to pay but they won't let me!) the rider keeps everything they win on the pony, whether that be a bag of sweets/£100/a hoof pick or just rosettes. They see it as i keep them fit, pay all costs, i bath plait and do all show prep including driving them around to shows so the least they can do is pay entry fees. In the case of big producers charging big fees i think prize money should go to the owners all else to the producers like feed vouchers etc I also think every time the owners pony is entered to compete it is under their name as the owner and ridden by "...producer name.." However if you are getting the producer to do the entry fees for you so you save some cash then i think the producer should take any prize money won. I have a paddock full of four year olds ready for breaking. Since being foals, they have been fed , mucked out, wormed, farrier every two months, travelled, groomed, and generally brought up to be nice people, so I would not say I have done bugger all. I am having a mare AI'ed this year, the stud fee is £500, to produce a quality animal, I then have her veterinary and keep costs so and if I am lucky next May I get a live foal, but nothing is certain. I do not sell mine a babies as I would get **** all for hem as no one wants to pay what they cost to breed. As for producer's, as an owner you are paying for a service. I have just built a house and have employed several professionals to help my dream become a reality, the best ones I tell people who they are and give them credit for that part of the end product. The real art is having a vision and putting a team together, and the real 'producer', is the one who puts up the money and puts that vision together and hopefully spotting when someone isn't as good as their PR. You could say the owners work was when they earned the money to pay for the pony in the first place, trailed round to buy it or bred it, but at the end of the day win or lose, its they who will be paying the bills. I work in a customer focused industry and I hope I never speak about the people who help pay my wages like you speak about your owners. As for prize money, if its a borrowed child I do deal that they have the money and I keep the rosette, unless they do not have others when they get everything. If I was paying someone to ride, and I had paid the entry I would expect the prize money, that is their job, they should be professional not working for tips.
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Post by PLP on Apr 29, 2016 11:52:56 GMT
cat among the pigeons here but i really don't agree that owners/breeders should get "the credit" if a pony who they've all too often done bugger all with themselves gets shipped off to producers who put all the work in!! Why on earth should they get all the credit if said pony wins- they haven't worked all hours, riding, training, mucking out, feeding, show prep, show travel etc etc etc. its the producers and producers grooms who have done that! Okay i understand that this is a service they provide and take a decent fee too and it can be expensive if you choose to have your pony produced but why should you take credit for how well your pony does in this case? You shouldn't. Your name should go down as owner/breeder and then the producer should take the credit and be able to use their success with said pony as an advertisement for their business so to speak to get show off their talents and successes. One more thing that particularly gets me too is when you buy a pony from a breeder as a youngster- you have minimal contact from said breeder then a good few years later when you've broke the pony in and it goes well, starts getting decent results you still don't hear a willyie bird off the breeder then you qualify the pony for HOYS/RI and all of the sudden the breeder is all over you like a rash and pushing their name about to anyone who will listen that they bred the pony..... sorry you weren't interested the last 5 years so don't expect all the credit now! Far too many people want credit for something they've not been actively involved in. On a more personal note, i have a riders who rides for me- they pay zero towards the keep of any sort or diesel or anything they do however pay entries (I'm happy to pay but they won't let me!) the rider keeps everything they win on the pony, whether that be a bag of sweets/£100/a hoof pick or just rosettes. They see it as i keep them fit, pay all costs, i bath plait and do all show prep including driving them around to shows so the least they can do is pay entry fees. In the case of big producers charging big fees i think prize money should go to the owners all else to the producers like feed vouchers etc I also think every time the owners pony is entered to compete it is under their name as the owner and ridden by "...producer name.." However if you are getting the producer to do the entry fees for you so you save some cash then i think the producer should take any prize money won. I have a paddock full of four year olds ready for breaking. Since being foals, they have been fed , mucked out, wormed, farrier every two months, travelled, groomed, and generally brought up to be nice people, so I would not say I have done bugger all. I am having a mare AI'ed this year, the stud fee is £500, to produce a quality animal, I then have her veterinary and keep costs so and if I am lucky next May I get a live foal, but nothing is certain. I do not sell mine a babies as I would get **** all for hem as no one wants to pay what they cost to breed. As for producer's, as an owner you are paying for a service. I have just built a house and have employed several professionals to help my dream become a reality, the best ones I tell people who they are and give them credit for that part of the end product. The real art is having a vision and putting a team together, and the real 'producer', is the one who puts up the money and puts that vision together and hopefully spotting when someone isn't as good as their PR. You could say the owners work was when they earned the money to pay for the pony in the first place, trailed round to buy it or bred it, but at the end of the day win or lose, its they who will be paying the bills. I work in a customer focused industry and I hope I never speak about the people who help pay my wages like you speak about your owners. As for prize money, if its a borrowed child I do deal that they have the money and I keep the rosette, unless they do not have others when they get everything. If I was paying someone to ride, and I had paid the entry I would expect the prize money, that is their job, they should be professional not working for tips. Interesting to say the least. Here you have assumed i am a producer, pardon if i have read that wrong or taken it the wrong way. Written text can be interpreted in may different ways. The way "i speak about my owners" ..... I am the owner! I am not a producer, nor do I choose to have any of my animals produced. My horses are all home produced and it is me who puts the work in. I have a yard full so i have a groom who chips in a few hours a day when i am at work, however she does not ride or work any of the horses. I understand the cost involved in breeding (true breeding i mean)- however there are ALOT of "breeders" out there who do not take the time to plan, select the perfect mare/stallion combination, pay for AI if necessary, have their mares under cctv when foaling etc etc it is these breeders who as i said far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals soon as they've got some pennies they disappear.... until said foal 5 years down the line qualifies for HOYs/RI/Olympia. I did not address all breeders, so uncertain why you seem to have taken direct offence. I could say that i wonder if you have a field "full of four year olds" for breaking if you've considered leaving your mares empty for a few years but that would be more of a genuine interest to your stud- please do not take that offensively it is a genuine wonder as a few breeders round here have stopped breeding for a few years as they have not been able to sell. It seems that you keep hold of your babies for a bit and put effort in to train them which is brilliant and a leaf a few more breeders should take from your book! The last 3 youngsters i've bought have literally come straight from weaning all from different studs who haven't even bothered to have them halter trained. One in fact had been darted in a stable along side mum to be microchipped and wormed!! I found this out when the poor girl arrived!
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Post by PLP on Apr 29, 2016 12:04:58 GMT
PLP, shame you dont say that when logged in! Actually a breeder does a lot of work and puts in a lot of skill, it is not just luck when you breed, it takes a lot of work.. how do imagine ponies and horses come into creation? A breeder a mare for at least 12 monts prior to a foal getting ont othe ground, it is then cared for and trained for the next 4 years, funnily enough during this time they need mucking out, grooming etc, even if someone buys a foals from you at weaning a lot of work goes into that animal.. or should, before it goes off to it's new home. I know very few breeders that are not happy to be kept in touch with their babies, I stopped breeding years ago, but am still in contact with some of my babies, I will go and support them at shows when possible and have visited some in their new homes; mileage allowing. I am there for advice, guidence and support if required and asked for. On the issue of the OP, I have had ponies produced, paid all of the costs involved and have been given the prize money, however this is something that needs to be sorted out before the pony goes into the yard. I don't have a log in as yet, it is being activated so once i do- i will post under my name. Full name if necessary so you don't think i'm hiding or something behind a guest post! Nice assumption tho! As i've previously stated, i did not tar all breeders with my brush. I fully agree with your post but feel there is a lot more emphasis on alot of work going into an animal or should do prior to going to their new home, should do is exactly correct! My experience with breeders thus far even the 2 ponies i have out undersaddle this year have both come from very reputable breeders to which i was extremely shocked as to how i received my new babies even more shocked that one has no interest in their progression when they were backed until the lad qualified for HOYs. I think it is brilliant that you support your babies and would attend shows when close to you, unfortunately not all breeders have that interest and commitment to their babies. I do agree and think that is a pretty good idea to agree prior to the pony going to the producers it is agreed in advance who the prize money goes to.
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Post by samd on Apr 29, 2016 12:24:53 GMT
My owners always get given the prize money. Would't even think of keeping it
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Post by catkin on Apr 29, 2016 13:00:44 GMT
I guess we cannot argue with personal experience of breeders, but we mustn't forget those that are exhibiting their own homebred ponies with a producer. Its important for accurate recognition for this both as the owner and also as a shop window for their stud.
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Post by phillyloupeters on Apr 29, 2016 14:43:21 GMT
I guess we cannot argue with personal experience of breeders, but we mustn't forget those that are exhibiting their own homebred ponies with a producer. Its important for accurate recognition for this both as the owner and also as a shop window for their stud. Well said. Also just as much a shop window for the producers work, business and lively hood. Same boat for both.
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Post by Dipsy on Apr 29, 2016 15:13:18 GMT
The owner should keep the prize money....and rosettes!
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Post by sageandonionagain on Apr 29, 2016 15:38:58 GMT
Slightly different but similar nevertheless. I pay my trainer to sometimes ride my horse dressage. This is usually where there is a training issue that needs to be addressed in the ring (not all training can be done at home). If she should win, which she usually does! I give her the prize money so I have paid for the class, for her to ride and given her the prize money. However, this is my choice, I am the one in receipt of the price money in the first place and it isn't £much anyway. She is also very fair with me so I think give and take.
However, if I were to send my horse to a producer, I would expect winnings and what happens to them, to be detailed in the contract so the question doesn't arise in the first place.
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Post by interesting topic on Apr 29, 2016 17:23:04 GMT
Well interesting points are definitely being made samd your owners are very lucky because I can honestly say that I have never in the last 10 years had the prizemoney offered to me and its easy to say it should have been discussed but I honestly never assumed that it would be kept , I am not saying that it would not have been given anyway but I would like it to have been my choice. With regard to breeders I do not breed but have bought and brought on several young ponies and with every one we have kept in close touch with breeders and previous owners sending pictures and if they qualify for something big invite them to come along. I hope we do a good job with the ponies bringing them on slowly and carefully so they are often a very good advert for the stud and the ponies are featured on the stud websites so there is gain on both sides ,we are lucky enough to enjoy their lovely breeding and they get good publicity which is always acknowledged by us .a
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Post by honeypot on Apr 29, 2016 18:21:37 GMT
I have a paddock full of four year olds ready for breaking. Since being foals, they have been fed , mucked out, wormed, farrier every two months, travelled, groomed, and generally brought up to be nice people, so I would not say I have done bugger all. I am having a mare AI'ed this year, the stud fee is £500, to produce a quality animal, I then have her veterinary and keep costs so and if I am lucky next May I get a live foal, but nothing is certain. I do not sell mine a babies as I would get **** all for hem as no one wants to pay what they cost to breed. As for producer's, as an owner you are paying for a service. I have just built a house and have employed several professionals to help my dream become a reality, the best ones I tell people who they are and give them credit for that part of the end product. The real art is having a vision and putting a team together, and the real 'producer', is the one who puts up the money and puts that vision together and hopefully spotting when someone isn't as good as their PR. You could say the owners work was when they earned the money to pay for the pony in the first place, trailed round to buy it or bred it, but at the end of the day win or lose, its they who will be paying the bills. I work in a customer focused industry and I hope I never speak about the people who help pay my wages like you speak about your owners. As for prize money, if its a borrowed child I do deal that they have the money and I keep the rosette, unless they do not have others when they get everything. If I was paying someone to ride, and I had paid the entry I would expect the prize money, that is their job, they should be professional not working for tips. Interesting to say the least. Here you have assumed i am a producer, pardon if i have read that wrong or taken it the wrong way. Written text can be interpreted in may different ways. The way "i speak about my owners" ..... I am the owner! I am not a producer, nor do I choose to have any of my animals produced. My horses are all home produced and it is me who puts the work in. I have a yard full so i have a groom who chips in a few hours a day when i am at work, however she does not ride or work any of the horses. I understand the cost involved in breeding (true breeding i mean)- however there are ALOT of "breeders" out there who do not take the time to plan, select the perfect mare/stallion combination, pay for AI if necessary, have their mares under cctv when foaling etc etc it is these breeders who as i said far to often aren't interested once they have sold the foals soon as they've got some pennies they disappear.... until said foal 5 years down the line qualifies for HOYs/RI/Olympia. I did not address all breeders, so uncertain why you seem to have taken direct offence. I could say that i wonder if you have a field "full of four year olds" for breaking if you've considered leaving your mares empty for a few years but that would be more of a genuine interest to your stud- please do not take that offensively it is a genuine wonder as a few breeders round here have stopped breeding for a few years as they have not been able to sell. It seems that you keep hold of your babies for a bit and put effort in to train them which is brilliant and a leaf a few more breeders should take from your book! The last 3 youngsters i've bought have literally come straight from weaning all from different studs who haven't even bothered to have them halter trained. One in fact had been darted in a stable along side mum to be microchipped and wormed!! I found this out when the poor girl arrived! I haven't taken offense, I just have a different point of view. I do not breed very often, I can not afford it, if just so happens I have ended with some roughly the same age as I took on someone else's rejects and a welsh hill pony when my last horse died. Someone has said that when they go showing they are the breeders shop window, which implies commerce and profit. I have yet to meet a breeder even of top class animals that makes a profit, in the terms of HMRC, most I have met just want to produce a nice animal that complies with the breed standard or type and goes on to have a useful healthy life. Why is it so bad that they take some credit for something they have taken effort to bring into the world when it does well? To be honest it wouldn't worry me if one came weaned unhandled, my wild welsh hill pony was round penned to get unto the lorry, not ideal but now at four you would never know he had a rough start. Its the ones that are over handled that I worry about.
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 29, 2016 20:30:02 GMT
Whilst it is going off topic, not all breeders are the same.
I have a lovely 7yo which I purchased directly from the breeder as a well looked after yearling. The breeder has always taken an interest and I've always kept in touch. I would have no issue with this breeder using the performance of what they have bred in their favour.
Then take my 6yo - purchased as a 2yo from a 'dealer' who was selling a few for the breeder. The pony was an absolute state but I could see the potential. The dealer hadn't had them long so they'd come from the breeder in that state. Fast forward a few years and the breeder sees a photo of said horse looking absolutely fantastic and suddenly tries to take a great interest - I think not!
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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