|
|
Post by cg on Jun 14, 2016 10:08:29 GMT
Hello Everyone, Just looking for ideas at the moment, but there is the possibility of me starting up an equestrian business/livery yard in the South West, out of an old farm. My horses are already at the farm so it has the basics. What do people really want from a livery yard, in an ideal world? I would also consider offering professional services such as breaking/schooling and maybe production, I am also a qualified side saddle instructor. To start with the farm has amazing hacking, countless picturesque bridleways accessible all year around and straight from the farm, so I never have to ride on the roads, we also have ample private fields for canter practice etc. -What style stabling is best for indoor stables? (we already have four brick built but will need more.) -The farm doesn't have an arena so this would need to be considered, type, size? -A horse walker -Renovate tack room These are what I consider the basics to be, there is also a lovely barn I am eyeing up for an indoor arena  but I think they need that still for silage but who knows!! Any ideas greatly received just so I can throw a few ideas around that are new to what I have Thanks |
|
|
|
Post by sjw87 on Jun 14, 2016 11:16:00 GMT
A lot of people like the monarch type internal stables BUT they are the worst when it comes to spreading viruses or infections, including strangles. Consider whether you will have any kind of quarantine procedure or how you can minimise risk through the design process. A strangles outbreak can be very damaging financially.
A lot of livery yards fall down on storage space - if you're having diy's then they need adequate dry, secure storage for their possessions rather than having the outsides of the stables cluttered and posing a fire risk.
The off road hacking will be a major selling point and with an arena it's quality rather than quantity - a 20x40 with a well maintained, all weather service will be far better than a 30x60 that is only useable in certain weather.
Again, indoor school would be fantastic, especially if you are offering full/schooling/breaking livery as you can guarantee being able to work with the horses rather than being weather dependent.
With grazing, consider carefully what you can provide. Far too many yards have more horses than the land can cope with, especially now the winters are getting wetter.
Whatever you provide, have a contract in place to cover all forseeable eventualities and to cover yourself with payment issues (eg. Payment in advance, procedure for dealing with non-payment etc). The big thing as well is that whether you have 1 or 100 rules in place, that these are enforced for everyone. The biggest cause of arguments/bit*hiness on yards is the 'one rule for one, one rule for others' scenario.
Good luck if you go ahead with this venture, it sounds like a lovely location.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
|
|
|
|
Post by silvo on Jun 14, 2016 11:18:30 GMT
Turnout. The number of yards we have locally with no or very limited turnout is astonishing. I'm a bit "turnout police" but as far as I'm concerned no option of turnout is a welfare issue. And gates. Proper gates. Nothing worse than trying to keep horses back with nothing but a stupid bit of electric rope to help!
|
|
|
|
Post by flee on Jun 14, 2016 12:33:50 GMT
If you have enough land then offer a 'full' grass livery option ie the horse is out 24/7 and you will do the daily checks , rug changes , hay and feed ( if necessary ) etc so owner doesn't have to visit daily . People will bite your hand off and be prepared to pay a premium for a service like that .
|
|
|
|
Post by mcnaughty on Jun 14, 2016 14:39:28 GMT
An attention to detail - and good, reliable staff to carry out this detail.
A friend of mine was at a professional eventing yard and they failed to pick out hooves so one horse got a maggot infestation! They didnt put adequate rugs on in the winter. Refused to use leg straps on rugs. Forgot to put on fly rugs and repellent in the middle of summer. Skimped on hay and haylage to all horses and even one with serious ulcer issues. Their grazing was never harrowed or rolled or poo picked. The fencing was so bad her horse kept escaping but blamed it on the horse and kept it in for a week until they could be bothered to fix it. The horse was ridden by a teenager and it nearly killed the kid when it got on at the weekend and they hadnt even told them! Clean and tidy everywhere and stables mucked out properly and not just left to build up over the week for the 5 day liveries to dig out over the weekend. Being polite - set a rule that everyone is polite - that the daily diary is completed with all requests in a polite manner!! Oh and put everything on wood pellets as it will save you hours of mucking out and reduce your muck heap by around 50%! Personally I think you are better off asking for more money but not charging for extras all the time. A large enough school so that 2 or 3 can exercise at once and a good selection of jumps. Oh! and a hot horse shower!
|
|
|
|
Post by sjw87 on Jun 14, 2016 14:48:58 GMT
Just thought of something to add - a designated clipping area/wash box.
It's not fair on liveries stabled near a tap to have the area floating in water all the time and as the owner of a clipper phobic horse, I was always concerned that someone would come and start clipping in the stable block whilst he was in.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
|
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jun 14, 2016 16:08:58 GMT
Offer what you can maintain, I am well aware that everyone wants 365 days per year turnout, however if that is not viable say so. Be very clear on what you offer and make certain you deliver that... everything else is a bonus.
Facilities need to be clean and well maintained rather than expensive. I would have solid walls between the stables if indoors and open fronts. Perspnally I think it is better to have fewer good sized stables than lots of little ones. Decide if you are offering DIY or full or part livery and stick to it, do not mix, either they are all full, all part or all DIY.
Be clear on how you expect your clients to behave, the do's and don't's.
I take it that the place does not belong to you so ask the owner you are going to rent off of what they are happy with.
Look into insurence and business rates.
I agree with sjw87, bearing in mind that the water is metered so make everyone aware that it is not good practice to leave taps running. and to clear up after themselves.
How many are you thinking of taking on? Are you going to be able to manage this venture by yourself? Are you going to want to work 7/7? If you are going to take on staff you will need employers liability insurence and you will have to provide Health and Safety courses ( these can be done online ) and moving and handling plus anything else that might be relevant. You will also need to provide a pension, you can go onto the Gov website to find out about this. Bear in mind shows etc.
A standard size arena would be adequate.
A decent toilet block.
Parking and are you providing parking for lorries and trailers? Will you be charging for this extra? Can you make it secure?
Ask your liveries to have insurence for their horses including 3rd party, ask for a copy of this, do a credit check, are you going to allow children to be there, you can end up being an unpaid child care facility?
If you offer full livery will you also offer a plaiting service?
Write a list.
Work out costings
|
|
|
|
Post by sjw87 on Jun 14, 2016 20:02:17 GMT
Offer what you can maintain, I am well aware that everyone wants 365 days per year turnout, however if that is not viable say so. Be very clear on what you offer and make certain you deliver that... everything else is a bonus. Completely agree - under promising and over delivering is far better than the other way round. Also agree entirely with the legalities mentioned by gillwales as you need to be 100% legal and above board. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards |
|
|
|
Post by cg on Jun 15, 2016 8:48:58 GMT
Wow amazing points thank you everybody, I agree with them all!
I live just behind one of the fields with my boyfriend whose family owns this farm and another and we are thinking (maybe) of diversifying a little. So it would be on a small scale, particularly to start.
Another option is train pointers from there too as apparently the land is fantastic for that. I would want to be picky with my liveries, to reduce hassle! The land and management side of things is sorted.
What would you want to make you move to a livery yard though? Something a bit different/unique/special that not everybody can offer?
Livery wise I think I would offer schooling livery and then either part or DIY
|
|
|
|
Post by silvo on Jun 15, 2016 9:35:35 GMT
Gillwales can i ask why you suggest only one type of livery? I'm in a similar position to the Op and I'm interested in making sure we get it right.
Op what would make move to a yard is knowing that it's run properly by someone who knows what they're doing (well kept, tidy muck heap, good first impression stuff) and is careful about who it takes on. I've found fb groups are a really good way of identifying local yard jumpers and people I just wouldn't want to take on. If I wanted top notch schooling or teaching I'd go to one of the local proven professionals.
|
|
|
|
Post by sjw87 on Jun 15, 2016 13:01:17 GMT
I obviously can't speak for gillwales but my thoughts on not mixing types of livery is that it can be very unsettling for the horses if there are different routines going on. If you are going to mix types of livery then the best way to do so is for there to be seperate barns/stable blocks for each type.
With that in mind, if offering diy/part livery, you need to consider how you will work feeding times and turnout/bringing in to ensure that horses aren't left alone, potentially panicking and causing injury. If a diy livery needs to do their horses at 6am to get to work on time, will they be expected to feed the whole yard or will you be up and out to do so? If you are offering ad hoc services, it's wise to require notice for services required and have an additional charge for short notice requests as I can speak from experience when I say that getting a phone call at 5pm in the middle of winter asking you to muck out and bring is an absolute nightmare.
In terms of offering something special/unique, is your off road hacking rare to find in your area? Where I am that would be a major selling point.
In all honesty, the biggest selling point for me would be quality and safety of the basics over something unique. So many yards have either inadequate fencing or leaky stables that a yard where everything is well thought out, well made and well maintained is likely to have long term liveries.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
|
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jun 15, 2016 14:05:57 GMT
the same as above plus it is much easier to treat everyone the same if they are having the same service. More to the point they treat eachother as equals.
How many times do we see on here moaning about one person on a yard make life hard for everyone else? Usually in DIY.
To anyone starting up, look to see what is offered and at what price in your area, try then to fill any gaps in the market.
Horses are kept for pleasure and those that keep theirs in livery rather than at home often do so because they work and also enjoy the social life that can cme with the yard. I think it is good to encourage this, it keeps your clients loyal and can create a fab fun atmostphere. Joint trips, fun rides, teach-ins... christmas diner a summer bbq, the list is endless and can be made to suit your clients.
|
|
|
|
Post by silvester on Jun 15, 2016 14:42:23 GMT
Personally I'd say don't mix the types. DIY is hard to mix in with liveries, and you will get asked "can you just pop my feed in / turn mine out etc etc" there is little money to be made from DIYers and twice the effort. While you have liveries, an extra one and and extra one makes the jobs worth your while whereas extra diys create more mess lol.
At my yard liveries are wanting well managed facilities, such as the school rolled daily, floodlight in the school are a must, well maintained fields and fencing, sensible pairs or individual turnout, lots of grass, lots of hard feed bedding and hay. A good routine is important and strict times on turnout and bringing in (no good for DIY!) so that liveries know there horse is brought in when weathers nasty. Are you aiming for competition horses or happy hackers - if competition then you need safe lorry parking and a knowledge of what competition horses requirements are
I find people are less interested if your offering teaching or schooling or plaiting services etc, as they have there own, so long as there allowed there favourite instructors to visit.
Have a nose at what else is offered nearby and compare what you can do. It's bloody hard work and no rest but lots of fun! You won't have time for your own horse or a holiday.....
|
|
|
|
Post by cg on Jun 16, 2016 11:55:48 GMT
Thank you everybody! I was thinking to offer part livery? So 5 days a week type thing? And then have a few in for schooling/breaking etc?
There seems to be a gap down here for this type of thing particularly with hacking like we have, its just fabulous, I haven't lived here for too long and I still cant get over how incredible it is!
|
|
|
|
Post by sjw87 on Jun 16, 2016 14:35:37 GMT
Have a careful think of how 5 day livery will work. If you're doing all horses monday to friday so they all get fed and turned out/brought in at the same time as each other as well as the same routine each day, weekends could be a nightmare with owners doing their own thing. Of course owners should be able to do what they want with their own horses when they want but a horse of a slightly sensitive disposition may find it difficult to cope with being left in the stables or field alone or all horses being fed at different times when the weekdays follow a routine.
Horses on diy tend to get used to this but if it's only happening 2 days a week can cause them stress.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
|
|
|
|
Post by cg on Jun 17, 2016 8:13:28 GMT
Thankyou sjw87. This is just a quick thought, I have a friend who does this very successfully and seems to really work. I am just throwing all sorts of ideas out for constructive criticism etc. I was tempted by DIY, but I have heard from a lot of people that DIY liveries just cause trouble! We had 2 liveries on a very chilled out basis but they would very often abuse how relaxed my partner was and proceed to ruin the fields! So we now have just the one who actually does listen! It was very frustrating when we had somebody that would just do as she pleases and then leave, to leave us with the mess she created! So I wont make that mistake again, there will be rules in future and I want it to be as enjoyable for everybody!
|
|
|
|
Post by ikklecob on Jun 17, 2016 8:51:41 GMT
As a DIY livery I find some of the comments insulting. Please don't tar us all with the same brush.
I would want, honesty if something goes wrong admit it.
Turnout, both individual and herd. Sick paddocks for those who are recovering from injury to have a pootle in are a godsend to.
Rules. Make sure everyone is given a copy and they are on display as well so nobody can say they didn't know.
5 day offers don't always help if you work weekends.
Lorry trailer parking. I would expect to pay.
A loo. Essential. Also somewhere to change out of/ into work clothes is useful so as not to get covered in straw.
|
|
|
|
Post by sjw87 on Jun 17, 2016 10:00:12 GMT
I agree that not all liveries are the same whether diy, part, full or schooling/backing/competition. I could tell you plenty of horror stories about diy liveries but my biggest bug bear personally is full liveries wanting their horses fed up to the eyeballs to give it more 'oomph' under saddle but aren't the ones hanging off the end of the leadrope trying to turn it out!! I also know of owners who will turn up and empty the stable completely if there is so much as a speck of dirt in the bed. It's certainly not all though and there are many, many people out there who just can't provide the day to day care of their horse due to work or family commitments and are the most down to earth, genuine horse owners you could ask for. Common livery issues such as people using other people's things are preventable by having locked, individual storage areas and restricting how much can be left outside the stables - prevention is far better than cure!
With any liveries, the key is to talk to them and ask them questions before they move on, listening carefully to what they say and make sure that all rules are clear and enforced. Ask for references from the previous yard and don't feel afraid to say they can't come to your yard if you feel they won't fit in with the routine/rules or the current liveries. In my experience, the yard owners/managers who take an active role on the yard and have regular yard meetings to deal with any problems before they get bigger are the ones with the best yards. The biggest problem comes when the yard owner/manager takes a back seat and one or two liveries try to take on their role.
Unfortunately, it is common for non-land owners to not understand just how much effort, time and money goes in to good land management so the scenario you mention of trashing fields and then moving does happen. What you have to do is to put measures in place the moment you see a deterioration in the ground to protect your land so that it doesn't get to the stage of being trashed. Even if those measures result in someone moving off, at least you have some grazing to offer to a new livery replacing them. The biggest way of preventing ground damage though is to be realistic with the amount of horses you have on the land and how the paddocks/fields are laid out. Maybe a dry turnout area (eg. A decent size round lunge ring that could be dual purpose) would be more beneficial than a horse walker? In bad windy weather a horse walker can't be used anyway.
Offering livery can work really well but it's just a case of really thinking through what works best for the farm in question and being realistic about the financial side of things.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
|
|
|
|
Post by cg on Jun 17, 2016 10:30:45 GMT
I agree that not all liveries are the same whether diy, part, full or schooling/backing/competition. I could tell you plenty of horror stories about diy liveries but my biggest bug bear personally is full liveries wanting their horses fed up to the eyeballs to give it more 'oomph' under saddle but aren't the ones hanging off the end of the leadrope trying to turn it out!! I also know of owners who will turn up and empty the stable completely if there is so much as a speck of dirt in the bed. It's certainly not all though and there are many, many people out there who just can't provide the day to day care of their horse due to work or family commitments and are the most down to earth, genuine horse owners you could ask for. Common livery issues such as people using other people's things are preventable by having locked, individual storage areas and restricting how much can be left outside the stables - prevention is far better than cure! With any liveries, the key is to talk to them and ask them questions before they move on, listening carefully to what they say and make sure that all rules are clear and enforced. Ask for references from the previous yard and don't feel afraid to say they can't come to your yard if you feel they won't fit in with the routine/rules or the current liveries. In my experience, the yard owners/managers who take an active role on the yard and have regular yard meetings to deal with any problems before they get bigger are the ones with the best yards. The biggest problem comes when the yard owner/manager takes a back seat and one or two liveries try to take on their role. Unfortunately, it is common for non-land owners to not understand just how much effort, time and money goes in to good land management so the scenario you mention of trashing fields and then moving does happen. What you have to do is to put measures in place the moment you see a deterioration in the ground to protect your land so that it doesn't get to the stage of being trashed. Even if those measures result in someone moving off, at least you have some grazing to offer to a new livery replacing them. The biggest way of preventing ground damage though is to be realistic with the amount of horses you have on the land and how the paddocks/fields are laid out. Maybe a dry turnout area (eg. A decent size round lunge ring that could be dual purpose) would be more beneficial than a horse walker? In bad windy weather a horse walker can't be used anyway. Offering livery can work really well but it's just a case of really thinking through what works best for the farm in question and being realistic about the financial side of things. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards Brilliant advice thank you! I used to be a livery until I moved in with my partner. My job is to now manage them which is fine. However, I used to have to go away for a week with work and when I did they would do as they please, hence the trashing of the field and it got to the point where my partner (owner) had to tell them (and me) to keep horses in 24/7. Said horse was not walked out like the other 2 and she complained that he was too fresh (he wasn't and she was lazy) We then had one small paddock where each horse was allowed out for 1 hour, it was so wet. She proceeded to lunge horse in this paddock!!!! Safe to say she was asked to leave. So we have the one livery, who is fab! I feed all horses in the morning and she checks them midday, I work full time so the livery thing is something to be in place for the future. We then both go up in the evening and do our own thing and it works really well. If I were to go down the livery route, I would be on the yard all day as I would want breakers/schooling horses in. I felt problems arose when I went away, which they shouldn't have done but that's what happens when somebody has riding lessons for 3 months then decides to buy a horse, completely clueless! I would be very picky with liveries, ask for references, ask questions and be sure they would fit in in my yard environment. I want everybody to have a great time rather than feel like its a chore to come to the yard. Having been a livery I feel like I would have a fairly good idea, I want other peoples ideas too. Most yards are fab and work really well! |
|
|
|
Post by cg on Sept 5, 2016 9:02:33 GMT
Thank you again everybody for all of your help it has been very very useful!
I was hoping to pick your brains again!
There is now potential for another opportunity, same area but the only way to describe this facility is dream yard.
It has EVERYTHING! You name it it has it!
So I could have separate blocks for part, full and DIY livery or maybe even hunting livery.
I need to research prices and make a serious business plan as this place is perfect.
It has a lot of potential to hold competitions, have clinics, liveries, trainers, breeding.
However, I don't want to try and bite off more than I can chew.
I am just trying to get some ideas and business plan to see if it is possible to make a living! Would you go for trying to do a few different bits or start by keeping it simple?
It would be perfect for full liveries, it is 10 minutes from the beach so I was thinking 'holiday with your horse', hiring out gallops, indoor arena? Holding clinics and pony clubs?
Any more advice or ideas of what is done elsewhere would be fab as I have experience but not on a luxury yard like this!
Thank you
|
|
|
|
Post by moomin on Sept 10, 2016 14:01:07 GMT
Also grooming bays with cross ties to tuck your horse up in and a seperate bay for the farrier with good access for the farriers vehicle. Nothing worse than a horse being tied near the entrance to a barn blocking the whole way!
Horse walker (oval) solarium/hot water for winter bathing.
Not enough top class yards to cater for a competition horse. Individual turnout with safe secure fencing. Plenty to rotate on.
|
|
|
|
Post by amypetit92 on Sept 12, 2016 7:22:48 GMT
My only pet peeve has always been storage space.
I think after you've had horses for any particular length of time you learn that grass/soil changes/a bad year, will always effect your turn out situation.
It doesn't matter how careful you are - talk to a decent reliable farmer, preferably one with the equipment and knowledge to help you rotate, spread, Harrow and top your fields, also a knowledge of fertilising and the types, times and qualities will help you with the turnout.
I like so many others have too much stuff. And I mean, too much.
Also like many others my partner is not horsey, and before buying my own place was becoming rather narked with the smell of horse, no matter how many zip lock bags I deployed.
I always hated turning up to a lovely yard, to find that there was one saddle rack, barely enough space to hang a bridle, and as for rugs? Good luck.
I don't like things in walk ways, and if you make any sort of plan for quarantine, these are all things with nooks and crannys to harbour infection and bacteria.
So storage for people, most definitely. And some security and or privacy for people's belongings. We have a large room, (part of a barn) and ive installed large heavy wooden "lockers" they sit two high, and about 8 across. You could probably make them for a few quid and stain them. Theres nothing worse than ending up in the "she took this and they took that"
Same goes for somewhere to keep yard utensils and wheelbarrows - especially again on the quarantine front. You need to be able to sterilise and keep them away from the horses.
Apart from that, school maintenence is a big thing for me. I have two off the track throughbreds that I trained for a time before bringing out of it, and nothing is worse than an unlevel bumpy school!
Sorry for the moan, but from a mildly ocd point of view, these things drive me crazy.
On one more serious note, don't entertain taking sides. However harsh it may sound, if you have two people always causing an issue, of course they'll blame each other, because nobody admits to being a bully, or a bit unreasonable.
My rule has always been either it's sorted, or you both go.
|
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Sept 30, 2016 19:47:58 GMT
you asked earier what would make you change to a different yard. My thought on that would be reliability and consistancy. There is no doubt that horses respond to a regular routine. Let us know how you get on, good luck  |
|
but I think they need that still for silage but who knows!!
