Draft rule for rider's weights

[janetbushell]

Aug 26, 2016 8:13:17 GMT the showing register said:

This is only the judges personal opinion and if there was a rule about riders being suitably mounted whatever their age only the size of rider would be taken into account so in this type of situation it might help.

It is only recently that Stallions have been allowed to be so widely shown in mixed classes before now they were mainly shown against each other. I am not saying in your case but you could argue that unless a Stallion is used at stud perhaps it should be gelded and not kept entire to gain a perceived advantage in stature and presence.

Personally when judging I always have a soft spot for a good mare.

They have certainly been competing in mixed classes since the late 1980s, but perhaps not in such numbers. What is perhaps relatively "recent" is the age rule for this. I seem to remember a very nice Dartmoor stallion being gelded for this reason in the early (?) 90s as his child jockey was not old enough.

[CarolineNelson]

Silly me, when I first glanced at the heading (minus reading glasses!) I read it as DAFT rule for Riders Weights. And I thought, 'no it isn't, it's a realistic idea!'

Head above parapet now. I wholeheartedly endorse any move to curb the Welfare situation of the OBESE or sizable person riding a horse or pony of lighter frame or basically just too small for the rider.

Those of us who have attended the likes of Appleby Fair will have cringed to see long-legged and often 'lardy' lads sitting well behind the point of balance, bashing (often immature) animals up and down the "flashing track". And felt sick. AND lodged Welfare complaints.

Back to Showing - it isn't just - as was posted above, the "aesthetics" - ie: if the "picture" is wrong a Judge should place / mark the combination down.

Let's be honest, Obesity is manageable. Just because there are clothing outlets for size XXXL's it doesn't mean that people should capitulate to their dietary preferences and wear such garments. But, if they do, they DO NOT have to subject their long-suffering neddy to carry them.

A few years ago at a very large, extremely well attended (but unaffiliated) show, my judging colleague and I dared (no, it was I who stupidly dared!) to pass comment on the size of a rider compared to the stature of their animal.
I/we got, very publicly, into very hot water over this with the family connections of said rider. Indeed, people still 'dine out' on Caroline's 'fau pas'. Funny but not funny.
I must add that the connections to this rider were unbelievably less than polite to my colleague and I, passing extremely derogatory remarks. That is an understatement. Many, indeed most judges would not be prepared to put their heads on the block as we did. Plus, I would mention that both the Show organiser and the section Sponsor supported us through this unfortunate incident.

Recently in the "Scottish Farmer" (Equine section) Mr Tom Best of the Waxwing Stud raised this very issue; he had been judging at the Great Yorkshire Show which has been pivotal in condemning the showing of 'underhorsed' animals.

So, where do we go from here? BHS/ ABRS Affiliated Riding Schools have a 'weight' rule regarding their clients. But, clearly this does not exist where individuals are competing on their own animal.

The above was written not only from the perspective of a Judge (let's face it, Judges are blamed for most things to do with showing) and a retired Producer (If the Judges aren't, then Producers get blamed for most things to do with showing) but also in my capacity as a BHS Welfare Officer.

Finally, as said above, as a now retired producer - I am going to really put the proverbial 'cat amongst the pigeons' and endorse the preparatory and careful riding in of FR and other ponies by lightweight 'work riders'.
Done properly, carefully, it really does help the pony to gain confidence and help it's diminutive rider. That is of course, assuming the work rider is of a suitable size, attitude and aptitude for the pony.
Much of the education at this age (of rider) is about the child's confidence and works towards the combination having that mutual confidence.

If the child knows and is confident that the pony has seen the showground - and if the pony is happy in the environment, that will make for a comfortable combination when aforementioned child is plonked aboard her/his pony, all dolled up in their posh showing clothes (Mummy saying 'don't get dirty'. . . )

The pony cannot learn the ropes by 'osmosis' - and it is unfair and unwise on both child and pony to expect a child to be able to teach and support the pony. Be realistic here.

OK, I'm not applying the proverbial 'tin hat' as, to be honest, I think many will agree that what I've said makes sense.

[springer]

I have just looked at the D&H Chart & they have Highlands from 13h to 13.3 hh. at 490 Kg average. My 3 Highland stallions are 147.5 cm LHC so no average weight for them. I have a 138 cm gelding which is 500kg but not fat & resting & a stallion with loads of bone who is 650KG but retired & 2 Showing fit stallions at 500 Kg . Highlands do vary very much in build & height & weight . My weight will be going up & down all the time !! I totally agree with this "rider weight " thread though but I just wanted to point out how the Highland breed can vary.

[the showing register]

Yes springer agree , and HPS have written to us to say that a 20 % rider weight ratio is too high for highlands on this basis they could carry 18 stone !

On the Equifest thread a rider had her 41 inch standard Shetland weighed and although she does not tell us the weight of the animal Spillers told her it could carry 7.5 stone which does seem a fair assessment.

[CarolineNelson]

Aug 30, 2016 16:37:40 GMT the showing register said:

Yes springer agree , and HPS have written to us to say that a 20 % rider weight ratio is too high for highlands on this basis they could carry 18 stone !

On the Equifest thread a rider had her 41 inch standard Shetland weighed and although she does not tell us the weight of the animal Spillers told her it could carry 7.5 stone which does seem a fair assessment.

With respect to the HPS who obviously know their Breed, (and not, one hopes, sounding flippant) surely the proverbial sturdy Garron bringing the Stag down the mountain would be doing so in WALK with the deceased animal strapped firmly towards the shoulders, the point of balance. And panniers would be secured, equally balanced on each side of the pony.


.... as opposed to being expected to manoeuvre tight circles in 3rd gear with a potentially unbalanced human on board a saddle which at the least, weighs a stone without adding the human.

But yes, the large Breed Mountain and Moorland Pony certainly does have the physique to carry more weight, particularly when fit not fat (the pony I mean!). They were, after all, used for numerous labouring duties prior to motorised transport.

Even the Welsh pony of Riding type (the Section "B") would regularly carry the Shepherd. Mind you, that Shepherd would be fit.

[bellasmum]

Ive just come back to this, and thank god someone has some sense!!! Caroline Nelson!

But lets be absolutely clear TSR is in no position to call the shots over ruling on weights, lets drop the 'draft rules' bit and stop scare mongering

This should be about education amongst proper governing societies – them speaking to THEIR judges at conferences and gageing their feelings about it!

I am yet to see any county show have a member of public near a showing ring let alone make comment about a work rider in a warm up arena – surely they are more interested in shopping and ice-cream!

There are enough well established stewards at county level shows who are fully aware of adults on ponies and how to deal with them!!! As after all – that part of the exercise at a show is not under a judges jurisdiction!

Unfortunately at TSR level of grass roots showing, this is not the case, and maybe this is where energies should be diverted to educating the up and coming band of competitors at a more grass root level, as this is where I see the problem at its worse!

[the showing register]

Thanks Bellas Mum for your comments I do feel that we have as much authority as anyone else to canvas judges , shows and exhibitors about this issue and add something agreed by the majority to our rule book we have had overwhelming support for the principle. Next year British Dressage are bringing in a very similar rule and SJ and eventing will follow. It is better to self regulate than come under the eye of welfare societies and it is a fact that county shows have more complaints about this and at worrying levels , some are acting on there own as shown at the Great Yorkshire.

Tomorrow I will post up the second draft which covers many of the 100's of representations that we have had in the past month and it is looking substantially different. On December 4th we are running a second debate to hear all views for and against .. no one can say we do not consult ! If you are against any regulation please come and tell us why.

[cayo]

This whole situation worry's me ,initially i thought fair enough we have all seen riders obviously too big for small ponies working in at shows and few not that many in my experience venturing into the ring ,i feel now this is all going to far and is demonizing anyone who is of heavier build who rides ,and to presume judges are going to be able to make a fair assumption of the weight of horse and rider and its capability of carry said rider is in my opinion doubtful ,we will get into a situation where one judge will deem a combination fine another wrong ,we will see some riders unable to show their horse after many years of ownership and showing because they are now suddenly not within some spectrum of what is considered acceptable ,i understand the idea of it but i cannot see how it can or would be fairly put into practice ,i think rules of no over sized riders on small ponies even in the collecting ring is fine but to start having judges making assumptions about any combination beyond those which are obviously under-horsed is unfair .AS for the assumption that say welsh cobs are all only capable of carrying a certain amount of weight how can that work with the huge type and height weight difference within the breed ,to me this is turning into a witch hunt and i dont like it ,im not sure what the answer is but im sure everyone wants the best for their horse and any horse pony carrying too much weight it will surly show in its ability to perform .