Draft rule for rider's weights

[the showing register]

Comments please on this thread or to [e-mail]

"At all horse shows organized by or affilliated to The Showing Register riders must be an appropriate weight for the horse or pony that they are riding. This rule applies to the whole venue and includes working in and competing.
Judges and show officials can and will advise riders if they believe the rider is compromising the welfare of their horse or pony and are fully authorised to ask the rider to dismount if 2 or more officials are in agreement "

[chloesmum]

Can I ask for more information on how you are going to enforce this. If this is just based on an assumption of weight I think it is very dangerous.
If you plan to publish desired weight/height for a pony and provide a weighing scale and height measurement to ensure it is accurate then fine.
What is appropriate and for how long in terms of riding and type of riding? What will be the experience of the show officials? Are they veterinary experts or health experts?
Will this be for 'working in' in public collecting rings and in the classes? How will you know how long a pony has been ridden for?
Sorry for all the questions but I think this is fraught with issues of discrimination and whilst I am all in favour of horse welfare I still think think is really difficult to police. There are also so many more welfare issues that are not so visible - ponies lunged for hours at a time; drugs etc. You will also maybe find people working ponies all night at home to get round your rules, we all know of cases of ponies put on walkers all night.
I still think this should be up to judges to decide in the ring and if you have official stewards in collecting rings to again advice if they feel appropriate but I can guarantee you will then find people going round horse box lines etc.

[Philippa]

I'm in agreement with chloesmum. I'm 5'4 weigh 10 stone or just under and I ride my daughters full up LR pony both at home and at shows. She is worked for approx 20 mins at home if I ride her and at shows its dependant on her attitude on the day.

I was on her at one show for about an hour and at one point got off and lunged in between as she was so fresh.

I'd be interested to hear if you think I'm out of order riding her? I don't ride heavy. I am light on her back & mouth and she's never under pressure from me riding her but she would only ever get ridden by a 5yr old if I didn't get on, how can you keep something schooled if that's the case

[rooanda]

I agree with Chloe's mum that alot of thought and work needs to go into this.

I am in favour of the 20% ratio weight rule providing that this is enforced fairly and totally unbiasedly.

I would expect that calibrated portable scales (Allen and Page have them in every sales reps car) for both horse and rider to be at every show ground where this rule is being enforced as correct weight is not possible to judge by eye alone. This would promote fairness across the board for all riders no matter what size of pony/horse vs weight of rider. This should be enforced across all showing not just ponies.

I can see some hiccups as follows: firstly: ponies lunging for hours on a circle instead of being ridden by an "over weight" person,

secondly: are the shows willing to accept liability for the accidents that might happen as a result of novice ponies being worked in by children,

thirdly: current rules state M&M stallions are not suitable for riders under the age of 12 - not because of temperament but because hormones can drive a stallion to do unpredictable things - I think most of us remember the Shetland incident at NPS a few years ago - nothing to do with the skill of the rider just a stallion being a stallion. There are no riding pony stallions in the children's riding pony classes for a reason!!!

I get very cross that people trot out the line children's ponies should be ridden by children - rubbish due to certain types of ponies being put up the line the show ponies are now like little thoroughbreds resulting in most show ponies being totally unsuitable to be 'ridden in' by children at shows especially when just starting on their showing careers, the M&M stallions are not and NEVER will be children's ponies so are the societies happy to say goodbye to at least the best Shetlands under saddle in open classes. Having done some research the average weight of a 44 inch Shetland is 204kg. The average weight of a healthy 12 year old girl is 41.5kg excluding saddle and that puts most healthy children out.

[sjw87]

What about whether the weight of the horse is appropriate? If a horse is obese then with the percentage ruling then they could be ridden by a heavier rider than a healthy weight equivalent.

I'd be interested to know the approximate weights of the super fit event horses at the olympics and whether some of the taller male riders of a healthy weight would meet the percentage above.

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[girly]

Many years ago my Dartmoor was at the vet college and was weighed three times because they could not believe how much she weighed. She was a fine pony who was fit but as they all agreed not fat. She weighed 70 kilos more than they thought she would Our Coonie when weighed on scales was less than we thought. The only way this ridiculous idea can be put into practice is if every pony and rider is weighed. What this will do to young girls who may be worried about their weight or body image is another matter

[chipmokey]

I haven't seen any mention of weight of saddle etc in these discussions on appropriate rider weight. In the post above is that your riding weight Philippa? As a matter of interest I weighed my daughter's Fylde Samantha (with girth, stirrups and numnah) together with show jacket, hat and boots and they came to about 1 stone 11 pounds and that is a very lightweight saddle so I do think that people need to remember to include these when calculating their percentage of pony weight. I would think that it is normal for ponies to be carrying rider's weight as measured on the bathroom scales plus one and a half to two stone.
Maybe it would be a useful exercise for riders to weigh themselves in riding clothes holding saddle to get a better idea of how much difference there is between what the pony is actually carrying and our weight first thing in the morning with no clothes on as is the recommended method of weighing.

[the showing register]

Good evening thanks for all the comments.We have developed this wording with the help of World Horse Welfare and several senior showing judges and officials. There is no mention of a weight ratio as this is as yet scientifically unproven and so may be open to challenge. A similar process is already running with British Dressage and we are following the success or otherwise of this.

We are now part of a consortium that is funding research into the weight ratio.

We have had over 150 comments in 24 hours and as you all know we will put them all in the mix. I agree that a training programme for judges and officials will be necessary and possibly some sort of certification this is why we put our ideas to the public test so they can be refined lots of heads are better than 1 !

[lucynlizzysmum]

I worry about this ruling, it is very visual and to be eliminating riders at a show for weight could end up raising all sorts of problemsand not necessarily for those who are overweight. Since the GYS when adult riders were asked to dismount from small ponies I am already aware of petite riders who are weighting themselves to ensure they are well within the weight range. Whilst I am in agreement that horse welfare has to be paramount, there are so many factors which come into this. good luck TSR in producing a workable rule, but I hope to god it will be sensibly implemented.

[the showing register]

Aug 15, 2016 7:20:53 GMT lucynlizzysmum said:

I worry about this ruling, it is very visual and to be eliminating riders at a show for weight could end up raising all sorts of problemsand not necessarily for those who are overweight. Since the GYS when adult riders were asked to dismount from small ponies I am already aware of petite riders who are weighting themselves to ensure they are well within the weight range. Whilst I am in agreement that horse welfare has to be paramount, there are so many factors which come into this. good luck TSR in producing a workable rule, but I hope to god it will be sensibly implemented.

Not a question of elimination with us it will be about education. I sincerely hope we can get it right and today it has gone out to all interested parties for consultation it has had 17000 views on our FB page and lots of comments.

However you may find some county shows take a much stronger line as they have so many complaints from the general public.

[sjw87]

The problem I can see with it being open to the opinion of the judges is that there will be inconsistency. If there is going to be a rule then surely it needs to be a defined limit/ratio.

What happens if someone competes at a show one week with no issues but then the next week they are asked to dismount. How are they to know that the judges at one venue will have a different opinion to those at another venue?

Will we see competitors choosing their judges on who is more lenient re. weight?

Also, I think there is more than one issue here that is trying to be covered by one rule.
- Adult riders on small ponies either in the ring or working in. As someone else noted, stallions need competent, adult riders.
- Riders who are overweight (either child or adult).

People KNOW if they are overweight and are usually trying to do something about it. They are more than likely extremely conscious of it and this ruling will fill them with dread regardless of whether their horse has no issue carrying them. It's not that they are completely oblivious and need an official to tell them that they are overweight.



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[lucynlizzysmum]

The mounted games association do have a rule for heights and weights, as does PC when it comes to games. They have a good chart on the MGA website - I assume that will not have just been dreamt up. Please don't think I am being awkward here TSR, I believe I am asking a valid question - but if you are not going to say a combination may not compete ie eliminate them how will this ruling have any creedence. I do think that what you are trying to achieve is good, but please, please be mindful of so many nuances!

[the showing register]

The main thrust of this is education. We have sent it out for consultation today and we feel cautious about the dismount sentence. Its nothing to do with being an adult its all to do with weight.The 20% weight guide is just that as it is not scientifically proven.

To give you an idea using the very good Dobson and Horrell chart which was put together by a vet and is available as a PDF on their web site - a Welsh Cob can carry approx 12 to 12.5 stone inc saddle. A section A can carry approx 8 to 8.5 a Dartmoor 9.5 to 10 an Exmoor 11.5 and so on I think these are good weights and most people will fall within the parameters. Interesting how much weight an Exmoor can carry for its height !

I have changed from kilos to lbs so hope my maths are correct if not I am quite sure you will all tell me !

I feel that other societies will look at this and the way to sort it out in the ring is to place riders down the line who are clearly underhorsed if you were going to get a lower placing you would ride something more suitable.Interestingly years ago we had very small light saddles and now they are heavy and cumbersome something to think about if you want to reduce your overall weight.

World Horse Welfare is monitoring the posts on here and FB as this is the first time any one has opened this topic for public debate. You all know how I love social media !

[sjw87]

I agree with your above comment re. not asking riders to dismount/eliminating them and instead putting them down the line. This will only work though if judges tell competitors why they are down the line otherwise they will just put the judge in their 'little black book' for not liking their horse.


I've started a new thread regarding other welfare issues rather than hijack this thread. I'd be very interested in your thoughts.

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[chloesmum]

I am somewhat relieved reading TSR last thread re 'guidelines' as I know we fall within those categories however I still think some people do see this as a get adults of small ponies and that does concern me in that it will become a witch hunt. As has already been pointed out there are so many different factors, working in, work asked to do in the ring, how riders ride in terms of being light or heavy in their approach cannot be governed by as straight weight per pony.
Advice is a great way forward but strict guidelines are not.

[the showing register]

I loath rules but we will have to put it in our handbook to authorise judges and stewards to act. A very good post on FB has suggested that judges can give competitors a tactfully worded slip if they have concerns and this will point them to our educational website. I still think in extreme cases as we witnessed at our show with a lead rein pony being ridden by a big adult they should be asked to dismount. Its how its worded thats the clever bit to sort out. Most people seem concerned about anorexia and we will consider this.

I have asked Chloe as a judge for some constructive comment.

Last word consultation is just that !

[the showing register]

www.dodsonandhorrell.com/factsheet-library

Excellent chart of weights of ponies on here put together by an eminent vet

[Tiny1990]

I am 5ft 2 and just 8.5stone - I weigh myself every week to make sure im not to heavy for my pony.i don't eat junk food, I don't drink etc just to make sure I can ride my pony. I look bigger than I am as im so short - I have a very chunky solid welsh A who cannot be ridden by children, he is very spooky,nervous etc we have tried children on him and they have ended up falling off and scaring him and themselves so the decision was made that I would ride him, we do flat showing and some WHP which he loves and we have had some great successes whilst doing this.
he is extremely fit and well and we have a great time. I will always make sure im the correct weight for him and if he shows any signs of struggling then I would stop.
My question is - if I go to these shows and get told im to big for my pony....what happens to him if im not allowed to ride him?? basically he will have no job and will just sit in the field for the rest of his life? sell him as a childs pony when he clearly isn't? (I would never dream of selling him as he wouldn't cope) . there is so many people all ready stressing about their weight and not eating etc before shows just to make sure..... so surely giving a 11 year old child a bit of paper saying they are to heavy for their pony is going to cause a lot of upset and even worse people starving themselves to be able to ride.
I agree something needs to be put in place to safe guard our ponies and to make sure their welfare is paramount in all of this but you would also hope that people taking part in this sport would make the welfare of their animals the main thing!

and like the above posts you will never stop it all together as theres a lot of things that go on behind closed doors before people even get to shows etc

[the showing register]

You are not too heavy or too tall so no problem.

[hazeysunshine]

Aug 15, 2016 11:20:34 GMT sjw87 said:

The problem I can see with it being open to the opinion of the judges is that there will be inconsistency. If there is going to be a rule then surely it needs to be a defined limit/ratio.

What happens if someone competes at a show one week with no issues but then the next week they are asked to dismount. How are they to know that the judges at one venue will have a different opinion to those at another venue?

Will we see competitors choosing their judges on who is more lenient re. weight?

Also, I think there is more than one issue here that is trying to be covered by one rule.
- Adult riders on small ponies either in the ring or working in. As someone else noted, stallions need competent, adult riders.
- Riders who are overweight (either child or adult).

People KNOW if they are overweight and are usually trying to do something about it. They are more than likely extremely conscious of it and this ruling will fill them with dread regardless of whether their horse has no issue carrying them. It's not that they are completely oblivious and need an official to tell them that they are overweight.



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Yep what you said. I'm on the porky side however I am within the range my fell pony can carry. I am trying to lose weight I work out five times a week and ride every day as well as eat healthy. I would be absolutely heartbroken to be pulled up on this. I try my absolute hardest to lose weight as it is and I am within the range however to someone else looking at me I might not be. To me it needs to be clear cut figures and consequences because otherwise it's a very very dangerous thing to be basing on someone's opinion. I've been friends with someone who suffered from an eating disorder and it is horrific.

[janet]

I think weight of rider on ponies is just ludicrous, if the judge does not like the picture the pony should be down the line, there are much more serious issues regarding showing than this, e.g. drugs, working in, up and down the country all season and ponies doing countless shows especially 4 yr old competing in Hoys qual, hitting ponies because it does not do what the jockey wants, standing on lorries for hours in the heat,
With stallions most of them have to be ridden by a teenager/ small adult, people will not see many small breed stallions in the ring after this witch hunt!!

[the showing register]

Thanks Janet for your comments we have had over 20,000 views and nearly 400 comments through our various channels so getting some good feedback . I think it is probably likely that as no scientific weight ratio is available it will be left to judges discretion if they consider the rider is not suitably mounted. It is interesting that Highland people think that 20% is far too high for a Highland as that means a big bodied one would be able to carry 18 stone which is too much !

[gerrig06]

This is a very interesting topic I think common sense should prevail if a horse or pony is struggling to go forward then it should not be placed and be bottom of the line up. I have seen this on more than one occasion and they have been placed whilst others have been left out - down to judging perhaps it being reinforced at judges conferences?

What do people think about the dressage ruling that only the person competing can ride ?

As for children's ponies perhaps this is more of a breeding issue as stated above, they are being bred finer and more thoroughbred type, surely a lead rein or first ridden pony should be suitable for a child to ride completely rather than being worked sometimes to the point of exhaustion so that it is safe to pop a child on?
I also think that plaiteds should have their age restrictions lifted the same as m & m it is heartbreaking when you have a pony that is a family member but child too old to compete it but still a suitable size

[sjw87]

In reply to the above post by gerrig06:

A rule for only the competitor to ride is fantastic in principle but unfortunately completely unworkable in showing as there are not set times for classes so clashes/close times often necessitate someone else working the horse in. With dressage, it is timed so that someone with multiple horses has adequate time between horses/classes but with showing if you've got horses in consecutive classes then it's a nightmare. A rule like the above could mean that people could only take one horse per show which would negatively affect both professional and amateur riders with more than one horse.

In terms of age limits being lifted, I completely agree and have brought this up before. I think it's the NPS who already do this and there may be others that I can't remember. Plaiteds are massively outnumbered by m&m's and nct coloureds which is a shame and I would love to see them make a comeback.

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[bellasmum]

Aug 13, 2016 20:44:27 GMT the showing register said:

Comments please on this thread or to [e-mail]

"At all horse shows organized by or affilliated to The Showing Register riders must be an appropriate weight for the horse or pony that they are riding. This rule applies to the whole venue and includes working in and competing.
Judges and show officials can and will advise riders if they believe the rider is compromising the welfare of their horse or pony and are fully authorised to ask the rider to dismount if 2 or more officials are in agreement "

Can you tell what level of shows this is potentially being aimed at as I am not sure what shows affiliate to you and what don't? apart from your own shows of course

[the showing register]

We have over 500 affilliated shows across the whole spectrum but many have multiple affilliations. The final draft will be available late September when we have taken the results of this consultation into account.

[the showing register]

This is only the judges personal opinion and if there was a rule about riders being suitably mounted whatever their age only the size of rider would be taken into account so in this type of situation it might help.

It is only recently that Stallions have been allowed to be so widely shown in mixed classes before now they were mainly shown against each other. I am not saying in your case but you could argue that unless a Stallion is used at stud perhaps it should be gelded and not kept entire to gain a perceived advantage in stature and presence.

Personally when judging I always have a soft spot for a good mare.

[Toaster]

Aug 25, 2016 8:01:13 GMT gerrig06 said:

This is a very interesting topic I think common sense should prevail if a horse or pony is struggling to go forward then it should not be placed and be bottom of the line up. I have seen this on more than one occasion and they have been placed whilst others have been left out

I think this is very valid. I don't think for a minute we would see scales in action at shows but there ARE riders out there blatantly and all too visibly too heavy for their mounts, we see riders that have trouble getting on or off their mounts because of their sheer bulk and others pouring themselves in to saddles far too small and sitting on the cantle and this clearly isn't on.

To me its THESE riders that should be 'targeted' those who virtually anyone passing would agree is too large not those who merely have had a double helping of trifle at the hotel buffet and are slightly over the ideal - it would help things overall further down the line as people become more conscious of these things - when tackling any problem like this logic says that you start with the worst and work backwards

Before anyone thinks I am 'fat bashing' I tip the scales at over 20st however common sense tells me I am too fat to ride so I merely come along and watch and still manage to have a great time - sadly there are those out there who are not so switched on.

Are riders not athletes after all? Apart from anything someone who is far too heavy can do enormous amounts of damage to themselves and their mount from the most innocent of falls, its about time some put their own safety and the welfare of their mount above their 'want' to ride

[gerrig06]

Aug 26, 2016 12:22:05 GMT Toaster said:

Aug 25, 2016 8:01:13 GMT gerrig06 said:

This is a very interesting topic I think common sense should prevail if a horse or pony is struggling to go forward then it should not be placed and be bottom of the line up. I have seen this on more than one occasion and they have been placed whilst others have been left out

I think this is very valid. I don't think for a minute we would see scales in action at shows but there ARE riders out there blatantly and all too visibly too heavy for their mounts, we see riders that have trouble getting on or off their mounts because of their sheer bulk and others pouring themselves in to saddles far too small and sitting on the cantle and this clearly isn't on.

To me its THESE riders that should be 'targeted' those who virtually anyone passing would agree is too large not those who merely have had a double helping of trifle at the hotel buffet and are slightly over the ideal - it would help things overall further down the line as people become more conscious of these things - when tackling any problem like this logic says that you start with the worst and work backwards

Before anyone thinks I am 'fat bashing' I tip the scales at over 20st however common sense tells me I am too fat to ride so I merely come along and watch and still manage to have a great time - sadly there are those out there who are not so switched on.

Are riders not athletes after all? Apart from anything someone who is far too heavy can do enormous amounts of damage to themselves and their mount from the most innocent of falls, its about time some put their own safety and the welfare of their mount above their 'want' to ride

yes I think it sends out the message "hey its ok for you to ride" judges need to start to address this by placing down the line it doesnt have to be in a vocal drawing attention to it but if they are placed bottom each time they may start to realise themselves. again not fat bashing just concerned for the welfare of horses and ponies as I don't think it is practical to weigh both horse and rider.

[sarahp]

tsr - as for stallions in mixed classes - I suppose it depends on how recently you call recently. Certainly I was riding my D mare in mixed sex classes (or did you mean mixed breed?) in 1990 and expecting stallions to be in the classes, it wasn't new then. I do think though that more recently there is a higher percentage of stallions being shown under saddle than there used to be, and I do agree that if a stallion isn't to be used for breeding (as my boy was after his showing career and still is) he should be gelded.