Changes you think would benefit showing

[gillwales]

Sounds like goinng back to old fashioned showing, a go round together should happen at the beginning and end of the class. The only way I can see showing becoming showing again ( if you understand where I am coming from! ) is to get rid of the marks, with the possible exception of WHP.

Toaster, what time are you breaking out the scrumpy? Save me a glass!

[Toaster]

Jun 27, 2017 20:02:20 GMT gillwales said:

Toaster, what time are you breaking out the scrumpy? Save me a glass!

Its all gone! Can't take any chances with these E rated fridges you know!

[volatis]

Quite a few people have mentioned removing the rider age limit for SHP and SP.
Come and compete with the NPS - no rider age limit for any of our plaited classes (workers included).
If you have a nice novice that you would like to gain experience under an older rider before a younger child rides it in the ring, then come to the NPS.
The Kellythorpe sponsored open ridden SP and SHP championship final has a £1000 prize fund on the championship too

HOYS bought in the part bred class on this basis too, no age limit and stallions allowed, so no need to sell that 13.2hh just because your rider is out of the BSPS age limit.

If the picture still looks right, come and compete with the NPS

[gillwales]

I do agree with you voltais, however sadly the majority of shows affiliate to the BSPS, I can only suggest that the NPS are more pro-active re these classes, they need to monitor them to see the average class size, if this is good then advertise it. The way to allow children to have their own classes is to have Best Child Rider classes, this puts the child in the spot light and will promote correct riding rather than what I see in many children , sitting at the back of the saddle looking like they are sitting on a sofa. Their hands under their chin or forced down on the pony's withers. This could only be an improvement.

[waspblue]

Transparency, honesty, manners and courteous polite behaviour on all sides, both the judges and competitors....well, a girl can dream lol!!!

Oh, and please can we have some judges who know what an incorrect canter lead / disunited canter is and penalise it accordingly. Yes, everyone can make a mistake, but at Open / HOYS level, this is poor basic schooling that should not be tolerated and most definitely not rewarded by a placing or good ride mark. Same goes for ill mannered ponies, riders on their mobile phones in the line up etc etc. Respect for the judges must be shown at all times when in the ring, equally I have also experienced some terribly rude examples of judges disrespecting the competitors in their classes, so needs to work both ways. It costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time and effort, so a little feedback would be nice, in order that competitors can learn and improve.

More chance of pigs flying from what I have seen over the last two years sadly.

[connemara5]

Totally agree with Waspblue - we have taken our showing back to being fun because like you have said we put a lot of time, money and effort into showing and we have also been judged by rude judges in the past and it is soul destroying for a young jockey and their family.

[tct2912]

My theory is (and this is only my opinion) Show Pony and Show Hunter classes are starting to become the Best Turned Out class. Way of going seems to be something that is becoming totally overlooked. I have been in a situation this year where im waiting for a novice to come through so had lots of time to sit at ringside and watch these classes being judged. I have played a mind game with myself and not shared it with anybody Will the judge pick the best turned out pony or the best pony on the go round?? I have watched the "Best Turned out" pony being pulled top off the go round more times than I care to remember, was it the best pony on way of going unfortunately not was it moved or dropped after the show? Not always. Yes I agree the go round has to count towards the overall mark but have our judges lost confidence in moving around the ponies after they have been pulled. Contrary to what Ive just said it was a welcomed relief to see the two lady judges at Three Counties (SP) moved ponies from the bottom of the go round line up up to place (and rightly so after they had performed their individual show).

Yes a pony must have star quality and our Producers do an amazing job of getting these ponies looking on top form BUT they must also have to go correctly and the judges must have the confidence to mark them down.

[Outdoorsy]

Jun 28, 2017 17:27:21 GMT gillwales said:

I do agree with you voltais, however sadly the majority of shows affiliate to the BSPS, I can only suggest that the NPS are more pro-active re these classes, they need to monitor them to see the average class size, if this is good then advertise it. The way to allow children to have their own classes is to have Best Child Rider classes, this puts the child in the spot light and will promote correct riding rather than what I see in many children , sitting at the back of the saddle looking like they are sitting on a sofa. Their hands under their chin or forced down on the pony's withers. This could only be an improvement.

Hi Gill, The NPS have been pushing these classes and shows put them on but only 1 and 2 ponies turn out for these classes which is disappointing! We also have our young rider qualification that is awarded to the best rider in a selection of classes.

[gillwales]

Waspblue, to a degree I agree with you, however, the incorrect lead in canter is NOT the worse thing a pony can do, especially if it has been given the wrong aides, it is sadly one of the errors that is easiest picked up from outside the ring and by novice people. Being disunited is a grave error as it denotes the pony being unbalanced. If it does have an incorrect lead then it is not foot perfect , however being on the forehand, being overbent and behind the bit... very dangerous! Having all of the movement going out of the back door, incorrect bend , falling in on the corners, a general look of being "wooden", not tracking up... honestly the list is never ending of faults that are far worse. I do say that being behind the bit is dangerous because if a pony takes of like that it is one of the few times it will be very difficult to stop. Being on the incorrect lead in canter, when not coupled to any of the above is a minor error in comparison.

Mobile phones should NOT be allowed in the ring with anyone, Riders, Judges or Stewards.

However where we are in unison is your opening line.

[janetbushell]

Jun 29, 2017 10:24:26 GMT gillwales said:

Waspblue, to a degree I agree with you, however, the incorrect lead in canter is NOT the worse thing a pony can do, especially if it has been given the wrong aides, it is sadly one of the errors that is easiest picked up from outside the ring and by novice people. Being disunited is a grave error as it denotes the pony being unbalanced. If it does have an incorrect lead then it is not foot perfect , however being on the forehand, being overbent and behind the bit... very dangerous! Having all of the movement going out of the back door, incorrect bend , falling in on the corners, a general look of being "wooden", not tracking up... honestly the list is never ending of faults that are far worse. I do say that being behind the bit is dangerous because if a pony takes of like that it is one of the few times it will be very difficult to stop. Being on the incorrect lead in canter, when not coupled to any of the above is a minor error in comparison.

Mobile phones should NOT be allowed in the ring with anyone, Riders, Judges or Stewards.

However where we are in unison is your opening line.

To add - mobile phones are forbidden by all society rules

[gillwales]

that's what I thought Janet.

[waspblue]

Jun 29, 2017 10:24:26 GMT gillwales said:

Waspblue, to a degree I agree with you, however, the incorrect lead in canter is NOT the worse thing a pony can do, especially if it has been given the wrong aides, it is sadly one of the errors that is easiest picked up from outside the ring and by novice people. Being disunited is a grave error as it denotes the pony being unbalanced. If it does have an incorrect lead then it is not foot perfect , however being on the forehand, being overbent and behind the bit... very dangerous! Having all of the movement going out of the back door, incorrect bend , falling in on the corners, a general look of being "wooden", not tracking up... honestly the list is never ending of faults that are far worse. I do say that being behind the bit is dangerous because if a pony takes of like that it is one of the few times it will be very difficult to stop. Being on the incorrect lead in canter, when not coupled to any of the above is a minor error in comparison.

Mobile phones should NOT be allowed in the ring with anyone, Riders, Judges or Stewards.

However where we are in unison is your opening line.

I totally agree with the list of faults you mention gillwales, so many overbent and incredibly wooden ponies, held in false pinned in outlines in the native classes these days, yet these are the ones frequently rewarded by judges and put up to top of line, along with grossly overweight ponies who just appear 'big and impressive' because they are fat and have huge cresty necks and quarters like overstuffed sofas. The very thing that we have all been told so many times will be frowned upon these days, isn't at all and is a welfare issue first and foremost and gives a bad impression to onlookers as when these ponies are put up in high placings it basically says that it is how they should look, which is not good for the future of any breed.
Don't even get me started on conformation judges who give near perfect marks to ponies that dish, plait or have other very screamingly obvious conformational faults.
As for riders on mobile phones, this should be instant elimination as could well be considered as outside assistance, even though the conversation may well not be anything to do with the actual class. The riders I saw on mobile phones were two of our top producers, which I thought set a very bad example to not only other riders but especially to younger ones who would wish to emulate these people. I'm sure if it had been a non professional rider then they wouldn't have been overlooked. All in all a very sad and disappointing snapshot of the showing world.

[alo]

Jun 29, 2017 9:28:58 GMT Outdoorsy said:

Jun 28, 2017 17:27:21 GMT gillwales said:

I do agree with you voltais, however sadly the majority of shows affiliate to the BSPS, I can only suggest that the NPS are more pro-active re these classes, they need to monitor them to see the average class size, if this is good then advertise it. The way to allow children to have their own classes is to have Best Child Rider classes, this puts the child in the spot light and will promote correct riding rather than what I see in many children , sitting at the back of the saddle looking like they are sitting on a sofa. Their hands under their chin or forced down on the pony's withers. This could only be an improvement.

Hi Gill, The NPS have been pushing these classes and shows put them on but only 1 and 2 ponies turn out for these classes which is disappointing! We also have our young rider qualification that is awarded to the best rider in a selection of classes.

We would love to do these classes but the pony has to be pasported with the nps and ours had an Irish passport with unknown breeding and now we have one with a Scottish sports horse ( although only 15h) so her breeding although she has been dna'd isn't approved for nps registration. Maybe if they opened up the criteria and gave a highest placed nps registered it may help.
This is only for sp/shp as the whp don't need to be nps passpored

[kayjayem]

I wouldn't like to see the go round done away with but in my opinion it would be better if both judges stayed separate and did not confer and there was no initial pull in. Understandably both judges may have totally different preference which is sometimes very obvious from the ringside when one judge will be more forceful in their opinion in the initial pull. If judge A has a strong preference for a pony and judge B prefers a different one if these preferences are made known in the ring it is easy to elevate or reduce marks in order to get the required result.

[sjw87]

I completely agree with keeping the go round as it is.

However, how does the go round influence the marks? Should the conformation judge even watch the go round or have any say in the initial pull? If they are only meant to be marking the conformation then surely they should only be looking in terms of correctness to type rather than overall picture. I do appreciate that way of going is very much linked to conformation and should be looked at in accordance to type but it's surely very difficult for a conformation judge not to be swayed by their 'overall impression' preferences from the go round.

Personally, I actually prefer classes with either one judge or multiple with no marks. I find the final line up, even if you don't necessarily agree with it, can be a lot easier to understand rather than when you've got two or more judges with their own preferences giving marks at a different scale to each other which can result in a mediocre animal standing higher than it should. I wonder how many judges having used marks with their co-judge(s) would actually like to tweak the final line-up given the chance? That doesn't mean that there has been biased or tactful marking, just that marks with no set scale being used by different people for the same purpose won't always give an accurate reflection when it comes to placing.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards

[2connies]

I'm not really against the marking system for such as HOYS and RI classes because they are so large these days ....and IMO some judges faced with 30-40 good quality ponies to judge within the space of an hour or so,can become somewhat overfaced,however experienced.
This can encourage judges to resort to face judging in an effort to get some kind of order into the chaos in front of them in the go round.

At least,the points system,under two seperate judges ( who should remain seperate) brings everything together in the end..or should do.

I remember a long while back,qualifying a pony for Olympia at at Midland Counties then,a week or two later ,taking same pony to the Royal and coming last out of 40! The lone judge who was even older than me,never really 'saw' our pony in the melee ( at least I hope that was the reason!).
So,for me anyway,the present points system is as good as any...just put a blindfold on the conformation judge until it's their turn to start!

[janetbushell]

This is a genuine question to those who don't want the two judges to confer with each other during the class go round - why not?

[thelwell]

In my humble opinion the whole idea of having two judges is that they are co-judges.
1. The initial go round and pull in are imperative in large classes because you tell me out of 20-30 ponies who can remember exactly which pony had the woopsie down the long side an hour later when you are giving it a mark. But you jolly well remember when this fantastic pony comes to you from the bottom of the line.
2. They have both been appointed to judge the class from start to finish.
3. Usually it means that the class is completed quicker as one is doing ride and the ponies are being stripped at the same time.
4. As a judge its tough luck if your co-judge is not on the same wave length. You are appointed to judge one or the other phases you have no choice.
5. The only way to get the winner and the placings is to have marks. If you didn't you would be still stood there an hour later arguing the toss.
6. Stood in the middle of the ring with one judge or two its nearly impossible to see any back numbers whilst they are trotting round. So when you have a co-judge you are usually saying I like that one, that one and that one.
7. An initial pull in can be changed around very easily once the marks are added up. Some competitors are happy, some are not !!

Once upon a time, many moons ago I was a lowly home produced competitor. As a Mother I never took my eyes off my pony with my fingers crossed both on the go round and in its individual show. Will it shy at the loudspeaker, will she get the correct leg, will it stand for the judge. After that I could breathe again if they had gone well. How many other Mother's do this? Now I have to watch EVERY pony and keep my concentration in order to give them all a mark at the end of their performance.

When I see all these negative posts on here. It sometimes makes be think why did I get out of bed at stupid o'clock to come and do this for nothing? Or even worse travel four hours the day before as the classes start so early that driving there on the day is not an option. The 1* bed and breakfast is an even worse option as they don't start serving breakfast until 9.00am. (Sorry but it is Sunday) Do I complain on social media that the bed was awful and I am starving ? No I don't. I just hope that the show has some coffee which will keep me going in mind and body until lunch time (which in fact usually ends up being more like 2-3pm)and often later.

Now you are going to ask "why do you do it" I do it because ponies and showing were my life. Along the way I have met some wonderful people with a wealth of knowledge. Oh and some not so knowledgeable. Now I have a different role. I get to judge your lovely ponies and hope that I have a pleasant and competent steward to make the job a bit easier. It is always my intention to have a nice day. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. It is HOYS and the Associations who make the rules not us. We as judges, competitors and stewards have to run with these rules and try to get the love of showing and fun back into the frame. I hope you are all "Up for it" as this is the one change that I would like to make to Benefit Showing.

[waspblue]

Jul 3, 2017 8:43:17 GMT 2connies said:

I'm not really against the marking system for such as HOYS and RI classes because they are so large these days ....and IMO some judges faced with 30-40 good quality ponies to judge within the space of an hour or so,can become somewhat overfaced,however experienced.
This can encourage judges to resort to face judging in an effort to get some kind of order into the chaos in front of them in the go round.

At least,the points system,under two seperate judges ( who should remain seperate) brings everything together in the end..or should do.

I remember a long while back,qualifying a pony for Olympia at at Midland Counties then,a week or two later ,taking same pony to the Royal and coming last out of 40! The lone judge who was even older than me,never really 'saw' our pony in the melee ( at least I hope that was the reason!).
So,for me anyway,the present points system is as good as any...just put a blindfold on the conformation judge until it's their turn to start!

I certainly agree with what you say as regards blindfolding the conformation judge, as all too often these days, it is them who are giving ridiculously high marks to ponies with very obvious faults that are detrimental to the breed standard, therefore ensuring that they can highly influence the class winner, even if it has a poor ride mark which is ridiculous and contradicts the fact that if two on equal marks then the higher ride marks takes precedence. However when, as happened at our last class, the winner had been given near perfect conf marks of 48, despite it plaiting very obviously, it then had a similar mid range Ride mark as a number of others, but to even get close to it would have meant getting a perfect ride and very high conf mark, which it appeared to be ensured that the winner would not and could not be caught. Very sad state of affairs indeed

[sometime]

Judges do a great job within the remit of the society rules some classes are huge so it can be very difficultto separate them all as all are usually of a similar standard. One thing that would make showing a lot better would be if people went to every show with the intention of having fun, With manners enough to appreciate the commitment and courage of the judges and staff, the dedication to have a go regardless of outcome as every day is a diferent one and in general make it a pleasure to be out and about amongst beautiful animals. Yes it nice to win a pretty rosette or even qualify for some final or other but it is not and never has been a question of life or death but a happy day out. It has all got very silly with abuse and anger at results at the end of the day the judges decision if final and if you dont like it put it down to a fun but unproductive day dont rant and rave. Professional producers win a lot not because they are the judges pet but because it is their living they do it right produce the ponies and horses corrrectly and depend on reputation to get the job done. There issometimes a halo effect but to be honest many cases they have earned it with tough years of making their name. I have a county winning pony that gets top comformation marks at one show and bottom ones at the next I dont care really as it is obvious that the pony cannot be perfect one day and flawed the next but it is the decision of the judge. I only go to a show to have fun, enjoy the company and see the lovely animals forward on the day. I even go on days that are not my type just to see and wach how things are done. Perhaps the best inprovement in showing would be to take the heat out of it and just enjoy it

[Outdoorsy]

Jul 1, 2017 6:39:28 GMT alo said:

Jun 29, 2017 9:28:58 GMT Outdoorsy said:

Hi Gill, The NPS have been pushing these classes and shows put them on but only 1 and 2 ponies turn out for these classes which is disappointing! We also have our young rider qualification that is awarded to the best rider in a selection of classes.

We would love to do these classes but the pony has to be pasported with the nps and ours had an Irish passport with unknown breeding and now we have one with a Scottish sports horse ( although only 15h) so her breeding although she has been dna'd isn't approved for nps registration. Maybe if they opened up the criteria and gave a highest placed nps registered it may help.
This is only for sp/shp as the whp don't need to be nps passpored

Hi Gill

in all seriousness ring our studbook department 01933 304868. Your animals may be able to be overstamped into one of our studbooks and then they would be eligible to compete.

[blagdon01]

Well said Sometime showing should be a fun day out win or not. The answer is simple go back to the old way one judge no marks just a single judges opinion on the day. Then another show another day different judge different results everyone in with a chance.  Big classes are nothing new, judges used to manage very well on their own in the past and I am sure  they could do so in the future. It makes me very sad to hear so much sniping and backbiting these days,  perhaps all the moaners on here should have something real to moan about and showing would find its real place again. 

[waspblue]

Jul 4, 2017 5:55:22 GMT sometime said:

Judges do a great job within the remit of the society rules some classes are huge so it can be very difficultto separate them all as all are usually of a similar standard. One thing that would make showing a lot better would be if people went to every show with the intention of having fun, With manners enough to appreciate the commitment and courage of the judges and staff, the dedication to have a go regardless of outcome as every day is a diferent one and in general make it a pleasure to be out and about amongst beautiful animals. Yes it nice to win a pretty rosette or even qualify for some final or other but it is not and never has been a question of life or death but a happy day out. It has all got very silly with abuse and anger at results at the end of the day the judges decision if final and if you dont like it put it down to a fun but unproductive day dont rant and rave. Professional producers win a lot not because they are the judges pet but because it is their living they do it right produce the ponies and horses corrrectly and depend on reputation to get the job done. There issometimes a halo effect but to be honest many cases they have earned it with tough years of making their name. I have a county winning pony that gets top comformation marks at one show and bottom ones at the next I dont care really as it is obvious that the pony cannot be perfect one day and flawed the next but it is the decision of the judge. I only go to a show to have fun, enjoy the company and see the lovely animals forward on the day. I even go on days that are not my type just to see and wach how things are done. Perhaps the best inprovement in showing would be to take the heat out of it and just enjoy it

I think a lot of the problem is that, no matter which way you look at it, the producers are always looked on more favourably than most amateurs, as it is often assumed that they will be on a good animal rather than judged correctly and fairly against the others in the class. If I had a pound for every time I've heard someone say, and I quote " if you just pay X £40 to ride your pony at a certain show under a certain judge they will guarantee it will qualify!! Now if that isn't blatantly cheating I don't know what is. It's things like this that upset genuine people, who spend every last penny on their ponies and put hours of time into getting them ready, only to wonder why they bother when the winner has already been decided due to the connections a pro will have with a particular judge. Whether the pony is good enough or not seems to be irrelevantŷ as long as you have the right friends in the know.
Sadly, this isn't moaning these days, merely the truth and very sad indeed.

[maxandpaddy]

I sadly agree with the above, it's really not sour grapes or lack of love for the sport it's wanting a fair playing field across all areas/classes/types/breeds for everyone

It'd be lovely to get back to how things use to be x

[gillwales]

Jul 4, 2017 12:45:22 GMT Outdoorsy said:

Jul 1, 2017 6:39:28 GMT alo said:

We would love to do these classes but the pony has to be pasported with the nps and ours had an Irish passport with unknown breeding and now we have one with a Scottish sports horse ( although only 15h) so her breeding although she has been dna'd isn't approved for nps registration. Maybe if they opened up the criteria and gave a highest placed nps registered it may help.
This is only for sp/shp as the whp don't need to be nps passpored

Hi Gill

in all seriousness ring our studbook department 01933 304868. Your animals may be able to be overstamped into one of our studbooks and then they would be eligible to compete.

Tis is very good advice, and the importance of the stud book is if this mare is then used for breeding her off-spring will benefit from her competitive record and from then on the second generation will be in the main body of the stud book. Unfortunaly Outdoorsey it was not me with the mare! But I get what you were saying

[welshab]

I would like to see room on the mark sheets for a comment next to the ride mark so that we could have some constructive feedback. A bit like what you get at the end of a dressage test mark sheet. It might help people make more sense of the marks if they can see what the judge was thinking. Some judges are very helpful with their comments and feedback that we receive in the ring. but not all judges do this and obviously in big classes the judge would not have time to go all the way down the line up and remember what each show was like. Don't think it would fair to put a confirmation comment though as I doubt people would want their ponies confirmation faults highlighted to everyone (I know I wouldn't).

[serendipity]

Jul 4, 2017 22:09:53 GMT welshab said:

I would like to see room on the mark sheets for a comment next to the ride mark so that we could have some constructive feedback. A bit like what you get at the end of a dressage test mark sheet. It might help people make more sense of the marks if they can see what the judge was thinking. Some judges are very helpful with their comments and feedback that we receive in the ring. but not all judges do this and obviously in big classes the judge would not have time to go all the way down the line up and remember what each show was like. Don't think it would fair to put a confirmation comment though as I doubt people would want their ponies confirmation faults highlighted to everyone (I know I wouldn't).

More time and more stewards would be needed for this.

[CarolineNelson]

Jul 5, 2017 12:53:25 GMT serendipity said:

Jul 4, 2017 22:09:53 GMT welshab said:

I would like to see room on the mark sheets for a comment next to the ride mark so that we could have some constructive feedback. A bit like what you get at the end of a dressage test mark sheet. It might help people make more sense of the marks if they can see what the judge was thinking. Some judges are very helpful with their comments and feedback that we receive in the ring. but not all judges do this and obviously in big classes the judge would not have time to go all the way down the line up and remember what each show was like. Don't think it would fair to put a confirmation comment though as I doubt people would want their ponies confirmation faults highlighted to everyone (I know I wouldn't).

More time and more stewards would be needed for this.

Not only 'more time and more Stewards' but, in Dressage, your Test Mark Sheet is your own. The same in Side-Saddle Equitation Classes. To put 'constructive feedback' on a Showing class marks sheet which is - let's face it, available to the whole world, would open up a complete mine-field.

I write this totally 'Tongue-in-Cheek' . . .

Just imagine the scenario - So, written against 1st placed:- " Typey, quality eye-catching pony. Super limbs. Well-presented and beautifully ridden. Executed a great display in its individual show and had shown exemplary manners and aptitude when in company. A clear winner".
"
As opposed to the ?30th placed animal. "Seriously ill-mannered when in company on the 'go-round'. Was disruptive throughout the class, wouldn't stand in line. Rider totally forgot the (set) show although 29 other animals had already ridden it. Pony off-type, light of bone - weak limbs - animal has a delightful matching pair of high splints, a serious pair of curbs and the biggest capped hocks that you could hang your hat on, easily spotted on the 'go-round'. Not for us today!"


Hey guys - Marks are a pain to us all, Stewards & Judges alike. But, comments in the public domain - Don't even go there! Please note that this has been written very light-heartedly and in a brief (late) lunch-break, between working hard to help arrange a big show for competitors to 'enjoy'.. . . .

In all seriousness, IF, sadly, an animal has to be demoted at the very last minute (ie: reared & unseated rider when being presented with 1st rosette) then a brief comment on the Sheet would be acceptable.


Back to my 'jesting' (above) - hopefully this might make a few people smile. Mostly, us 'stalwart' Stewards & Judges!


By the way, WelshAB, it is ConfOrmation.

[chloesmum]

Totally agree! Also in seriousness you would need a lot of room and time to write informative notes, how much does the odd word tell you and as we all know from here it is open to misinterpretation - heaven help us as well in this age of litigation if someone wrote for example 'poor example of breed' or 'splint' and the owner took exception,it could also follow said animal around if other judges saw the marks sheet.
As I have said before judges opinion on the day is what showing is about, take it or leave it!