Changes you think would benefit showing

[maxandpaddy]

Maybe this will help, somewhere to suggest things rather than directly pick up on specific moans

For me i'd like to do away with an ordered line up after the go around, for 3 reasons:

a) I think it would help to keep the conformation judging and the ridden unbiased in the eyes of those watching
b) It would do away with having a good idea of the final line up - keep things exciting and a better spectator sport
c) Help do away with conspiracy theories

I think more than anything this is a celebration of the true to type ponies/horses and it'd be lovely to sit watching and wondering if the judges agree with your own opinion ...make it more exciting!

And yes a few shows do it and yes it must make stewarding even more difficult, but I'd like to see it with BARGING IN penalised OR ask them to line up in the go around from a certain person onwards ...randomly

I just prefer it

[waspblue]

Jun 22, 2017 19:00:16 GMT maxandpaddy said:

Maybe this will help, somewhere to suggest things rather than directly pick up on specific moans

For me i'd like to do away with an ordered line up after the go around, for 3 reasons:

a) I think it would help to keep the conformation judging and the ridden unbiased in the eyes of those watching
b) It would do away with having a good idea of the final line up - keep things exciting and a better spectator sport
c) Help do away with conspiracy theories

I think more than anything this is a celebration of the true to type ponies/horses and it'd be lovely to sit watching and wondering if the judges agree with your own opinion ...make it more exciting!

And yes a few shows do it and yes it must make stewarding even more difficult, but I'd like to see it with BARGING IN penalised OR ask them to line up in the go around from a certain person onwards ...randomly

I just prefer it

Excellent points and very well said, I have to agree with this post totally. Besides which, it will also help to stop people feeling thoroughly disheartened when not pulled into that "magical top ten", because it isn't too often that it changes much and most of us realise this. There is nothing more soul destroying than having to sit for an hour, or longer in some instances, knowing that you pretty much have no chance of getting in the placings if you are pulled into the rest of the line up. I also think it would influence conformation judges less, as if they are presented with the top ten ponies in order of best first, then they realistically have to judge accordingly, they are hardly going to give the pony that the ride judge has chosen as the best of the group a rubbish mark in my mind anyway.
As for penalising BARGING IN, this along with bad manners from both ponies and riders, should be heavily penalised, as it should also be part of the bigger picture. I have witnessed the worst sorts of barging in and bad manners ever so far this season, some of which came from top professionals. Things such as sitting talking on mobile phones, riders slouching in saddles with knees up above the saddle flaps on the pony's shoulders all show a lack of respect for the judges and stewards not to mention themselves.

[honeypot]

I would like a basic standardised set of rules and dress code, with classes that would match that runs through all societies, that you only pay one membership and can qualify who ever is running the show. This would enable new people to have a go and know the rules.
Instead of home produced, amateur etc, its run on points, if the combination has won so many points, the higher the standard of show the more points allocated ie a placing in a HOYS qualifier would attract more points. Once you have won X amount of points you are out of the class. This would allow new combinations, and the lower level ponies to compete at the same level for longer.
Scrap the rider ages for SHP,SP. Its a farce most of these ponies are not suitable for children, it would mean as long as the rider was suitable the pony would have a job and perhaps create a market for the smaller ponies. I so saddened by the amount of failed SP,SHP that you can pick up for a few hundred pounds.
The societies to fund a data base of results, from all affiliated shows.

[gillwales]

I agree with honeypot, but I would take it further, I would like to see one studbook combined with a showing society that govern the whole of breeding and showing, one set of rules and once you have registered you foal it shows which breed or part-bred breeds it is, at the moment a RP can easily be registered with 3 different studbooks. This is extremely costly, and don't forget you will have already had to register your stud prefix and then again with every studbook.

Age limits do need to be scrapped for RP and HP. I would also like to see a beginners class, not governed by age but by experience. That way a person who starts riding later in life can have a go. NOT on show animals but on a horse or pony suitable for a beginner. These classes should only be judged by qualified instructors... not producers or coaches.

RE the go round, I am not sure that marking is the way to go, I like to see a class going around together and for animals to be pulled into a line up. You get to see the comparison which is what showing is about, plus we want our horses/ ponies to go well in company, esp hunters, apteral if you go hunting it is not something you do alone, therefore choosing from the go around is vital.

But most of all I would like to see the fun return, for the bit*hing and envy to disappear.

[Philippa]

I agree with most of the above but I'm also with GW re marking the pull in with a sliding scale. They did this in the hoys classes one year where 1st got an automatic 10 points and it went down to 10th. It was pretty much a certainty that the top 3 or 4 kept their placings. There was hell on about it. And you can't tell me that in a class of 50 ponies you can get your top 10 after the go round alone and put them at an advantage as it's extremely easy to miss a pony in such a class. I think any order line ups and fair and even marking and judging is the way forward. Let's put the element of fun & surprise back into what now has become quite a boring sport.

I left my pony at home on Weds but watched the Hoys LR we were supposed to be in. I'm glad I made the choice to leave her at home as I'd have put a huge amount of effort in and the results wouldn't have been any different. That's not slating the judge or other exhibitors. It's just my observations.

[ponymum]

I think the judges should be seperate until AFTER they have marked their sections. You see so often that conf often descends in order of the numbers on the sheets, which lets face it ,that is ludicrous unless the judges have the most amazing sight and can spot conformation faults on the go round!
Unless its a breed class, the marks should be 60 / 40 - again this may stop a conf score bringing a pony who has been badly behaved still in a qualifying position.
One society , one set of membership fees and one number for the combination all season would make life very simple!!

[maxandpaddy]

Exactly and as waspblue said theres nothing worse than being in a huge class and pulled at the bottom with an hour plus to go knowing theres no realistic chance of moving up to the ribbons - its soul destroying especially for new people/children to the sport

[clobo121082]

I maybe in the minority here but I actually welcome a pull in from the go round. The go round should count for something otherwise why are we even going around? especially if people don't want the judges to confer and talk about ponies that may have stood out. To me the go round is half the art of a showing class, getting yourself in space, showing your pony off to its best, standing out in the crowd - what I think a 'show' horse should do. Otherwise we are beginning to turn showing into dressage. We might as well walk straight into the ring. A show horse should catch your eye on the go.

Just because you haven't been pulled doesn't mean you can't come up. Three times last year my b wasn't pulled on the go (went perfectly just not the judges type maybe) and twice he came up to second (once out of 30 something ponies and i did my show second to last) and once to third. It became a bit of an ongoing joke. You have nothing to lose down there so why wouldn't you just go for it? yes in big classes ponies can get missed but a good judge will notice this and won't be afraid to shake it up. I personally find with no pull often the line up can see no type - I would rather be able to spot a pattern with what judges are going for. Most judges will leave room in their marks for something to come out and wow them - from wherever you are in the line.

[catkin]

Yes, I agree. Lose the go-round and part of the magic/specialism of showing goes. It has to count for something. And, if you are judging it is very hard to recall unless you do call in an order. Whilst the show and conformation are of massive importance, to me the go-round is where you 'sell' yourself.

[leevale]

Jun 23, 2017 10:01:21 GMT catkin said:

Yes, I agree. Lose the go-round and part of the magic/specialism of showing goes. It has to count for something. And, if you are judging it is very hard to recall unless you do call in an order. Whilst the show and conformation are of massive importance, to me the go-round is where you 'sell' yourself.

I agree with this 100%

There is definitely no point in a go round if there is no pull. It doesn't mean the class has already been judged, it is first impressions only. Like clobo121082, I have twice been pulled below half way in large classes, once at a County show when we won, and once in a HOYS qualifier when we were 2nd.

If you stop showing because you don't get a high pull, you don't deserve a place, lol.

[ponymum]

I agree that it gives you an idea of what the judges like, but once in a Rh class at Puk we were pulled 42nd out of 43 then went up to 10 th A bit of a result id say , so you shouldnt always assume no pull means no rosette .

[Philippa]

I'm not saying no go round but I don't think giving the first ten placed marks before the individual show should happen.

[Dipsy]

I think more classes for the home produced/amateurs to compete in would be a good move, especially if it goes you a chance to go to a top level show. Maybe a similar set up to how the olympia qualifications are given out.... so a home produced M&M Class at hoys or coloureds etc

[chloesmum]

I also think a go round is essential and personally do prefer a pull as well. It can help identify judges you perhaps don't like your pony or the opposite!
Years ago when we were still in plaited classes there was a very well known and lovely 153 SHP who invariably always lost the plot on the go round to the point that he was sometimes a danger to others, I could guarantee when it was just line up in any order he would always do a foot perfect show and win or be highly placed.
Now yes you can argue good judges should have made a note of his bad behaviour on go round but in large classes and in those days they were it often got overlooked.
Had they pulled he would I am sure have been down the line.
Coming up the line when not pulled top is a great rewarding experience for doing a good show. Our baby Dartmoor came from 6th to 2nd in his first HOYS class this week, he got top ride mark and the judge who we have never been under before even took the time to tell Chloe that he had done a brilliant show for us that was as good as winning.
Without a go round why are we not all just doing dressage with conformation!!!!!

[maxandpaddy]

I'm not saying the go around shouldn't count, in my head ideally the judge would take note of the ones that stood out for both the right and wrong reasons and bare that in mind once the individual shows start.

Then bring them in randomly from walk in the order they're going round in. I've seen people moved up from low down myself and it's lovely to see but pretty rare especially for the top few places. And it must influence the confirmation judge when they're already lined up in order of preference..

Surely

[Philippa]

I've just been looking at some of our mark sheets for hoys qualifiers all which have had initial pull ins. All, bar the odd exception start with a high ride & conf mark and get progressively lower as they get down the line up!! There are the odd exceptions where either judge has awarded a higher mark further down the line but in the main the pulled order is a sliding scale of marks.

[oldschooler]

Jun 24, 2017 22:25:40 GMT maxandpaddy said:

I'm not saying the go around shouldn't count, in my head ideally the judge would take note of the ones that stood out for both the right and wrong reasons and bare that in mind once the individual shows start.

Then bring them in randomly from walk in the order they're going round in. I've seen people moved up from low down myself and it's lovely to see but pretty rare especially for the top few places. And it must influence the confirmation judge when they're already lined up in order of preference..

Surely

Agree completely. Yes you can be pulled up after a low pull place after the go round, and this has happened to my cob last year in some HOYS classes. However I also saw places practically unchanged from the pull in (first to tenth from the top 12 almost the exact order at one show.) Sorry in a class of 30 plus I cannot believe this was a true reflection and that everyone had been fairly judged. It seemed to be who could get their pony in front of the judge at the right time whether you were pulled in, and as far I was concerned they might as well have given the rosettes out there and then.
Agree judges should judge separately, again it would ensure a level playing field. No one would say the go round should not matter, but this should be taken into account by the ride judge and good and poor performance should be noted.
I found my pony was judged best, and I don't mean when he won but when I felt we had received a fair crack of the whip, when there was no pull in just a random line up.

[chalky284]

Jun 22, 2017 23:25:55 GMT honeypot said:

I would like a basic standardised set of rules and dress code, with classes that would match that runs through all societies, that you only pay one membership and can qualify who ever is running the show. This would enable new people to have a go and know the rules.
Instead of home produced, amateur etc, its run on points, if the combination has won so many points, the higher the standard of show the more points allocated ie a placing in a HOYS qualifier would attract more points. Once you have won X amount of points you are out of the class. This would allow new combinations, and the lower level ponies to compete at the same level for longer.
Scrap the rider ages for SHP,SP. Its a farce most of these ponies are not suitable for children, it would mean as long as the rider was suitable the pony would have a job and perhaps create a market for the smaller ponies. I so saddened by the amount of failed SP,SHP that you can pick up for a few hundred pounds.
The societies to fund a data base of results, from all affiliated shows.

Totally agree with this, the points system especially. Promoting fairness and preventing pothunting will only encourage the next generation of ponies and riders in showing.

[2connies]

The one thing I dont like about the classes such as HOYS qualifiers,is that the conformation judge can be influenced by the pull in from the go round..for reasons already mentioned.
Saying that,I've never been able to come up with a better idea than the present system so perhaps we are stuck with it for better or for worse and if you have a go round then you may as well have initial placings at least for the top ten.
One thing which should happen though is that there should be no conferring between the two judges during the go round imho.

[bugs]

I agree with something good for HP/amateur people. I find it increasingly hard, especially with the crazy British weather and no arena, to keep my horses looking like the pro's. All credit to them, their horses look fantastic and go lovely but I struggle to compete with that when I can't do much at home due to wet/concrete hard ground. I just can't justify working the horses hard on that ground, they will be with me for a lifetime. The new junior class has just been top ponies that already do really well with different jockeys. Equifest used to be an opportunity for amateurs but it's increasingly filled with pro's.
I appreciate its very difficult to control these classes, and there is a difference in HP/amateur people. Those that have half or all their day at home to work their horses and those that work full time and have to fit rides in at crazy times of day. I know people will say they manage it and if they can then that's great. For me the increased professionalism of showing is driving me away. I can't compete with yard's that are getting 40 RIHS tickets, I struggle with 1! I just want to have fun, win good prizes and enjoy the my horses.

[serendipity]

I agree with a lot of the ideas here but I definitely would not like to see the "go round" disappear. It is a major part of the performance and otherwise all may just as well enter, perform their "test" and go home and wait for the results (remind you of anything?) I think there are fors and against with pull-ins. I prefer no pull in but think that may mean the judges will forget the performance from the go round.

I do not agree with scrapping the ages for the SPs and SHPs. Surely the art of breeding and producing these ponies is in achieving a beautiful, quality pony with a temperament suitable for a child to ride. Also these classes will end up getting the same problem as we have in the M&Ms with under-horsing.

[2connies]

Jun 26, 2017 6:23:20 GMT bugs said:

I agree with something good for HP/amateur people. I find it increasingly hard, especially with the crazy British weather and no arena, to keep my horses looking like the pro's. All credit to them, their horses look fantastic and go lovely but I struggle to compete with that when I can't do much at home due to wet/concrete hard ground. I just can't justify working the horses hard on that ground, they will be with me for a lifetime. The new junior class has just been top ponies that already do really well with different jockeys. Equifest used to be an opportunity for amateurs but it's increasingly filled with pro's.
I appreciate its very difficult to control these classes, and there is a difference in HP/amateur people. Those that have half or all their day at home to work their horses and those that work full time and have to fit rides in at crazy times of day. I know people will say they manage it and if they can then that's great. For me the increased professionalism of showing is driving me away. I can't compete with yard's that are getting 40 RIHS tickets, I struggle with 1! I just want to have fun, win good prizes and enjoy the my horses.

Have to agree especially with your last paragraph!

It's very difficult for example when father and daughter work full time to keep the ponies,then struggle finding time to get half a ( warm) day to wash and get ready a grey...then keep it clean!
I need to win the lottery,retire and get us a nice solarium !

Aside from this though,I have got to the stage where I'm no longer in love with all the panic to qualify for this and the other..I've started to long for the fun we used to have going to the good local and agricultural shows where things are so much more laid back and enjoyable impo.

Sorry for going off topic a bit.

[lastchance]

Introduce ride judges in the intermediate classes.

[proudwilliam]

Drug test all 1st prize winners in HOYS classes.

[Toaster]

As probably one of the only actual spectators in showing (ie not actually at the show as part of a party with a show pony) my absolute outsider opinion is that marks have a lot to answer for!

Its becoming more ingrained in today's world for things to be scored, not just things put in order of merit, not an evaluation of progression but to award an actual score

You cant even buy a fridge these days without it being scored, does it have an A rating? If its a D it will cost ten pence more in electricity a week, when in all essence all we need to know is whether it can keep a can of Scrumpy Jack at a nice chilly temperature and don't even get me started on kids having nervous breakdowns because of the apparent need to score their academic performance in to oblivion from the point of conception

Anyway... Back to showing..


No sooner than a class is over the call comes for the marks, the marks! who has the marks? the results threads on here are full of it - where people were IN the class and who must have known at least some of the line up don't bother to impart results they are only interested in the marks, then those who weren't at the show want to see where 'old Mrs Smiths show pony' lost marks and those that try to find logic when there is no perspective on how the marks were arrived at or no attention paid to whether a judge used a full range of marks or not

People often not caring about the actual result but the scores - how on earth did my pony drop ten marks from one week to the next? Let's break out the sarcasm and suggest that maybe he lost a leg during the week or that the judge must be blind, far better than to accept that the judge doesn't like the pony's type or that the pony was wearing more make up than Cher and perhaps you could tweak the presentation Or shock horror maybe the judge just used a wider range of marks

then there are the 'jumpers to conclusionists' those that suggest that somehow something has happened to 'old Mrs Smiths show pony' inside of a week and makes a mental note to look closely at its legs next time in case they can out it in on social media as having a splint that could be seen from space - also nice for a bit of loud speculation at the ringside too 'you know dear it dropped twenty conformation marks in A WEEK plus Mary saw it in magnetic boots on Wednesday'

Whatever happened to the judges decision is final and congratulating the winner? No, we will go away and kick ourselves that we only lost by a point and overanalyse it until we go a bit crazy or maybe we will cheapen the winners win by telling everyone in earshot how we only lost by a point and would have won if we had gone from canter to trot two yards further on

Where there are shows where marks aren't used there does seem to be a more pragmatic and relaxed attitude to results,
I don't think its a coincidence that some of those shows are fondly regarded as 'special' shows by many

Mad ramblings late and night by a tired woman but hopefully some points made (pun intended)

Anyone for a nice chilly Scrumpy Jack from my E rated fridge?

[chloesmum]

Absolutely Toaster!! All marks tell you is ON THAT DAY HOW YOURS COMPARED TO OTHERS IN THAT CLASS.
I think where there are 2 judges and large classes they do have their use, particularly if the judges are not on the same wave length but I would like to see them got rid of for other classes.

[sometime]

one solution to the go round and pull in would be for it to happen after the individual show. come in walk round first impression for judge. Walk into line with horses then picked at random to start so there is no scramble for the first place. once the individual and conformation have been scored the send them round walk trot canter and gallop where needed and add the scores and preferences at that point. This would do two things firstly the horses would be less straight from professional warm up and more natural and secondly the riders would have a chance to wow the judge by being well behaved in a crowd The go round in very big classes is mayhem and could be divided up if there were too many for the ring. I t would also stop the late arrivals storming into the ring causing havock

[chloesmum]

I can see where you are coming from and it could be interesting to see how it works, although the idea of a go round is as well for the ponies to have a warm up.
In a large class it would penalise those at the end of the line as they would come out without any sort of warm up, I understand it would be the luck of the draw in terms of line up.
Unless like the hack classes ponies were allowed to come out and have a circle of trot behind the line before they do their show, but again in tight rings where conformation is taking place there might not be room.
Interesting suggestion though, would suit one of our old ponies really well as he hates the mayhem of the go round whilst another would be a disaster as he is always naughty if there is a final walk round!!

[Philippa]

Jun 27, 2017 9:09:13 GMT sometime said:

one solution to the go round and pull in would be for it to happen after the individual show. come in walk round first impression for judge. Walk into line with horses then picked at random to start so there is no scramble for the first place. once the individual and conformation have been scored the send them round walk trot canter and gallop where needed and add the scores and preferences at that point. This would do two things firstly the horses would be less straight from professional warm up and more natural and secondly the riders would have a chance to wow the judge by being well behaved in a crowd The go round in very big classes is mayhem and could be divided up if there were too many for the ring. I t would also stop the late arrivals storming into the ring causing havock

I like this 'shake up' idea. In a large class the last ponies will have gone cold anyway after a go round so I can't see that being much different. In fact it would put everyone on a more level playing field as they would all come out 'cold'.

My own pony performs much better when she does her individual close after The go round so I know it happens.

[maxandpaddy]

Ooooo yes that could be interesting, and a way of giving the stewards time to add up/check the marks before gaining/losing any browny points xx