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Post by Observant on Jul 2, 2017 6:51:30 GMT
If the performance judge only uses a very small range of marks (as seen in a couple of HOYS qualifiers recently) then the class is decided on conformation? Is this high marking, small range aimed at not offending or upsetting anyone? The marks often in the high 40's are not indicative of what is actually going on in the ring. Highly amusing when competitors announce their thrill at achieving high performance marks, they and everyone else in the class! Marks designed to make judging transparent and fair...... certainly not doing that!
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Post by waspblue on Jul 2, 2017 7:02:51 GMT
If the performance judge only uses a very small range of marks (as seen in a couple of HOYS qualifiers recently) then the class is decided on conformation? Is this high marking, small range aimed at not offending or upsetting anyone? The marks often in the high 40's are not indicative of what is actually going on in the ring. Highly amusing when competitors announce their thrill at achieving high performance marks, they and everyone else in the class! Marks designed to make judging transparent and fair...... certainly not doing that! Having seen a very recent class won on a very high conformation mark by a pony that was not only very over weight, but also plaited like crazy and potentially looked over height for the breed standard, I have to say I agree with you. I have never before felt that a class winner was so obviously pre determined. All similar ride marks within 1-3 marks difference within top ten ponies inc winner, who incidentally did not have highest Ride mark, but then given a near perfect conformation mark to look as conformation judge alone had made sure that even with a poor Ride mark it couldn't lose. May as well have been an in hand class as many ponies in this particular class were truer examples of the breed and went better, yet ridden part clearly stood for nothing. Ride judge may well have stayed in bed.
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Post by Tierd on Jul 2, 2017 13:31:14 GMT
I think it's time that the marks for the ridden classes should change,60 ride 40 conformation as said previously its a ridden class not in hand,all to often it's the conformation judge that dictates the winner,surely the way of going should bre more important,before any one says that we would have bad examples of the breed winning,that is already happening
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Post by scarileo on Jul 2, 2017 16:27:44 GMT
I'd also love to see a full range of marks used. It's gotten to the point where a genuinely bad show of mine was marked 40 out of 50. 25/50 should be average and below/above average shows should be marked accordingly. It's sad that some judges may feel afraid to mark realistically; not being a judge myself, I wouldn't know the various pressures first hand... Getting almost perfect marks should be a massive achievement, and could also prevent any cases of "I wasn't really paying attention; give it 42/50).
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Post by ponymum on Jul 3, 2017 9:40:19 GMT
I agree that classes with no breed standard shouold be marked 60/40 as these classes are marked on performance and manners, however the Mountain and moorland classes should be 50/50 as they need to ensure a pony that is true to the breed standard does get the recognition it deserves. Or , perhaps it is now time to mark the go round too? This is a subject that will be debated time and time again , but I still cannot think of a solution that would make everyone happy.....
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Post by chloesmum on Jul 3, 2017 10:15:43 GMT
I think this is often one of those d**ned if you do and d**ned if you don't situations! When judges don't use a spread of marks and their co-judge does then that will obviously sway the results and you also often end up with loads on equal points. When judges do use a wide range competitors are often up in arms over ' how dare I get such a low mark'! Personally I prefer to see judges use their marks an average show should be about the 38 mark and then go from there really rewarding performance and marking down for mistakes. But I am not a judge and each of course will have their own preference, but I do agree a complete mockery if everyone is getting 48/49 for ride! (as I believe happened recently?) Also when marks just go down the line as happened to us once (and it was not a pull in) imo just lazy judging, certainly would not go under that judge again!
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Post by catkin on Jul 3, 2017 10:28:50 GMT
It's not just M&M's that need to show type though. I think the 'plaiteds' should do too.
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Post by jakes87 on Jul 3, 2017 12:26:06 GMT
Part bred and SHP judges at staffs used a wide variety of marks at the weekend
After no pull in we received highest show and conf mark going last, so both judges will be going on the list of future judges to go under for fair judging
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Post by MrsShowing on Jul 3, 2017 13:14:49 GMT
It's really hard sometimes to use a full range of marks for these classes. On the whole, most exhibits are of a good standard and go well enough to give a good performance without mistakes. It needs a re-education of both judges and competitors to ensure that a full range of marks is used. Chloe's Mum, I think 38 is much too high for an 'average' ridden show; it means realistically that if you take 38 as your average you may still only end up using a range of 10 marks, say between 35 and 45, which is not sufficient to generate an order of merit for a class of 40 ponies.
The average, or mid point, that denotes the 'acceptable standard' of a ridden show, i.e, no better, no worse, just 'acceptable' should be 25 if the marks available are 50. Most will still perform acceptable or better than acceptable shows, but you've got a range of 25 to work with from acceptable upwards, rather than half that if you start with 38.
The trouble is that competitors go nuts if they get less than 40 for a show that didn't have any mistakes. The marks need to be used on a set scale as in dressage: 45-50 a stand-out show, excellent in all respects; 40-45 excellent in some respects, very good as a whole; 30-40 good at the lower end, very good at the upper end; 25-30 satisfactory; 15-25 less than satisfactory; below 15 unacceptable. What goes in to each of those broad definitions would still leave scope for each individual judge's personal views, for varying definitions of way of going according to type/breed, and other variables. It would guide everyone to accept eventually that 25 is ok and that anything more than 25 is a positive.
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Post by chloesmum on Jul 3, 2017 14:17:54 GMT
Don't disagree at all. Think it depends on your definition of average - I meant by that a satisfactory show, executed without any issues so think we are on the same wave length. I totally agree though that most competitors get very upset if show is less than 40 and they think it was o.k. It is rare to see marks below 30 unless the pony has been particularly naughty. I think one of the hardest to mark must be the lead reins as most do go well without any mistakes, as I said I am not a judge but if I was I would think I would then be thinking would I want to put my child on this pony, does it go along in a happy way without pulling etc. So hats of to the judges as I am sure it is not an easy task,
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Post by Obsevant on Jul 3, 2017 14:18:43 GMT
It's not just about NOT making mistakes, it's about going correctly in each pace, transitions up and down, using the ring, riding corners, the standard of riding. There are so many aspects to take into consideration including the go round, the overall picture and the bit in the equine's mouth. The marking in general is far too high and exhibitors need to get used to a range in marks and accept that their performance or in fact their pony is just average!
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Post by ponymum on Jul 4, 2017 12:01:12 GMT
Remember the Gys marks a few years ago? My friend was in the lineup with other discussing if her show was a 42 - 46 and she got something like 17 with no obvious mistakes and her show was good!.....its all about the judge and how they allocate marks.
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Post by mandmgirl0164 on Jul 4, 2017 12:35:34 GMT
A huge amount depends on the individuals perception of a great show/mistake free show. So many don't count being overbent all the way through the show as a fault, or being completely wooden in the way of going/pony's mouth open all through the show. These are very obvious but seem to be invisible to a lot of competitors.
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Post by janetbushell on Jul 4, 2017 15:40:30 GMT
Part bred and SHP judges at staffs used a wide variety of marks at the weekend After no pull in we received highest show and conf mark going last, so both judges will be going on the list of future judges to go under for fair judging A tad "awkward" but thank you, as one of the two judges in both sections! Decision explained below: The Part Bred class has a different criteria for marking the ride section, than in the other flat classes, so hence our "no pull" decision. I did however ask my steward to make a note of a couple of back numbers of animals who had misbehaved in the go round & I also picked my top 6 - 8 animals as if I had been pulling in. I also allowed competitors to choose their own show to better demonstrate this criteria of showing them as performance animals. Those top few animals from the initial go round still had to demonstrate a good individual performance wherever they came from in the line up!
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Post by jakes87 on Jul 6, 2017 11:38:48 GMT
Part bred and SHP judges at staffs used a wide variety of marks at the weekend After no pull in we received highest show and conf mark going last, so both judges will be going on the list of future judges to go under for fair judging A tad "awkward" but thank you, as one of the two judges in both sections! Decision explained below: The Part Bred class has a different criteria for marking the ride section, than in the other flat classes, so hence our "no pull" decision. I did however ask my steward to make a note of a couple of back numbers of animals who had misbehaved in the go round & I also picked my top 6 - 8 animals as if I had been pulling in. I also allowed competitors to choose their own show to better demonstrate this criteria of showing them as performance animals. Those top few animals from the initial go round still had to demonstrate a good individual performance wherever they came from in the line up! you also marked fairly as my niece very much deserved the mark she got after forgetting to go on the one rein in the part bred
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 6, 2017 12:46:24 GMT
The range of marks is there to be used. Should be used. Must be used.
In the 'old days' we did this in our heads and then (as Judges) made logical comparisons. As Exhibitors, we would go home and work on the less good bits of the performance. And attempt to find ways to enhance the 'good bits' whilst also finding ways to 'cover up' the 'bad bits' (also, of Conformational defects).
I feel that a number of competitors are 'barn-blind' - that is, are either blissfully unaware of the animal's bad bits or draw a veil over them in their perception.
I was privileged to Steward for an eminent Farrier the other week and - that person had ex-ray eyes for limb defects. Made me think - and I'm not too bad knowledge-wise in the limb department myself!
As Judges, one should seek the ultimate, not accept second or third best.
As for that tedious expression he/she went "foot- perfect" . . to me this spells 'safe and boring'.
Marks? With me, 40 (in a 50%/50% scenario) is my 'cut-off' point. Anything which rates over the magic 40 therefore has really earned it in my estimation.
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Post by calerux on Jul 7, 2017 22:20:40 GMT
Safe and boring is often seen particularly in HOYS qualifying classes. It is difficult for judges to use a wide range of marks when the ponies in front of them are decidedly average. Ponies/riders don't do anything wrong, they deliver their own show or the set show in a safe way but nothing that makes the judge think Wow! or which really shows off their ponies' ability. When a pony goes particularly well it is rewarded with a higher ride mark, that is 50% of the marks which as a competitor you can influence so why wouldn't you? Deliver a hum drum boring show like everyone else and you will be given a hum drum boring mark which is on a par with everyone else. Make a difference, make your judge feel glad they entered the ring, make them think Wow! and ride your socks off! It might go horribly wrong but at least you gave it a go rather than every other 'foot perfect' boring average show.
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