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Post by I know 2 on Aug 6, 2017 21:27:48 GMT
Could not agree with you more waspblue,it is such a shame that it is obviously getting worse and nothing is getting done to try and police this,especially noticeable in the HOYS classes this season
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
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Post by kayjayem on Aug 6, 2017 21:37:14 GMT
In your opinion, in the classes you have watched and/or competed in, but possibly not in the opinion of others on the day or in the class - showing is, and always will be, subjective (however rules most certainly are not) I am glad you have been successful competing in BD, but just one small point I would add, 50% of the available marks are not awarded for conformation & breed type. I had these 'potential' winners confirmed by quite a number of other people, who also were of the same view and well in the know, so to speak. It'll be interesting to see how right we ALL are. I've found a bookie to take my bet, I'm sure my winnings will come in very handy to spend in the HOYS shopping hall after the relevant classes. Sorry to be such a realist but someone has got to see through all the ----!! Hi Waspblue could you pm me who your bookie is please as I've had some strong tips too. Rather than chewing the fat I'd rather put a couple of quid on lol!!
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Post by Cojudge on Aug 7, 2017 8:35:31 GMT
What about judges judging best friends? there is a picture just posted today on social media (facebook ) by the ride judge of last year's coloured class at hoys She's stood there with the champion of the coloured section Please can someone stop all this corruption within chaps I don't think that this should be allowed. There should be an element of 'how it looks to outsiders' and whether it is morally correct/appropriate as well as monetary connections. We all know it happens, what's the point in saying it it doesn't? I also think that co-judges in qualifiers should not be related/spouse/other immediate family or employees of one or the other. This would stop the apparent fixing or discussion of the result of a class before it has happened. Showing is in need of a clean up and this includes how it looks to other competitors. Obviously there will still be whingers but it does help to at least LOOK fair even if it still isn't. Disclaimer: obviously not all judging combinations or partners are corrupt ..
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Post by Horrified on Aug 7, 2017 10:36:16 GMT
I am a judge, I judge HOYS qualifiers and I thoroughly enjoy making someone's dreams come true. I have never ever favoured a particular pony, owner, rider,producer, breed I walk out the ring knowing I have been completely straight and honest. I am horrified to see judges in general being "bashed" on HG. Yes there is the odd judge who is so blatant I think they must want their brains tested, hopefully they will be discovered by the relevant powers that be and are brought to justic but believe me there are hundreds of good, honest judges. The very mention of Jill Godden in this thread makes me shocked and saddened she is just about the most honest straight, professional judge out there with a wealth of experience. Please be careful when you make sweeping statements about judges we do it for free
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Post by I know 2 on Aug 7, 2017 10:58:10 GMT
Could not agree with you more waspblue,it is such a shame that it is obviously getting worse and nothing is getting done to try and police this,especially noticeable in the HOYS classes this season
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Post by gillwales on Aug 7, 2017 11:12:46 GMT
I am a judge, I judge HOYS qualifiers and I thoroughly enjoy making someone's dreams come true. I have never ever favoured a particular pony, owner, rider,producer, breed I walk out the ring knowing I have been completely straight and honest. I am horrified to see judges in general being "bashed" on HG. Yes there is the odd judge who is so blatant I think they must want their brains tested, hopefully they will be discovered by the relevant powers that be and are brought to justic but believe me there are hundreds of good, honest judges. The very mention of Jill Godden in this thread makes me shocked and saddened she is just about the most honest straight, professional judge out there with a wealth of experience. Please be careful when you make sweeping statements about judges we do it for free You are so right. It is the behaviour on here that has stopped me going back into Judging or even Stewarding. I think the trouble is that so many people now just do showing and have no experience outside this "shiny" world. The basic standard of horsemanship is much lower and quick fixes employed. I have tried to defend those who give up their time for free. But to me the whole situation is getting worse, especially now some of the posts name people. I know one NPS Area Chairman, who has given over 15 years to help run his area who is standing down due to the way he has been treated. I wish that HOYS folded before it pollutes showing to a stage where it cannot recover, and I never thought I would say that. The Societies really need to clamp down on members who spout out on these forums and prevent those who are not member from competing in their classes. There are proper channels to make complaints and if all of the people on here did so then there would be no choice for the Societies to look into them. Carry on Judging and I hope you are not one of the people who's reputations get shredded on here. There at times when I wonder why the Moderators allow some of these threads/ posts
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Post by My thoughts too! on Aug 7, 2017 12:17:08 GMT
I am a judge, I judge HOYS qualifiers and I thoroughly enjoy making someone's dreams come true. I have never ever favoured a particular pony, owner, rider,producer, breed I walk out the ring knowing I have been completely straight and honest. I am horrified to see judges in general being "bashed" on HG. Yes there is the odd judge who is so blatant I think they must want their brains tested, hopefully they will be discovered by the relevant powers that be and are brought to justic but believe me there are hundreds of good, honest judges. The very mention of Jill Godden in this thread makes me shocked and saddened she is just about the most honest straight, professional judge out there with a wealth of experience. Please be careful when you make sweeping statements about judges we do it for free I could not have put this better myself, and all of it applies to me too.
The only bit that does not, is your thoughts on Jill Godden, as I don't think I have had the pleasure of meeting this lady.
I am posting as a guest, as since my computer was upgraded, I have forgotten my login details!!
Jo Jack
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Post by I know also on Aug 7, 2017 19:35:02 GMT
Im sorry but I have witnessed this first hand this year.. competitors in the judging boxes just before a hoys class chatting away to the judges like they are best friends - low and behold winners!
Also judges giving a ticket at one show to have the favour returned at another.. this is in direct public on social media so it is set in stone.
Showing is so expensive the championship shows are getting less and less in the non Q classes as people are putting there all into the Qs.
We have done it for a few years now. And to what avail? Nothing and one of ours is a previous hoys winner - face does not fit so neither does the results. Iv lost track of how many times we have been told to put XYZ on ours and they will clear up - no thanks if they are not good enough with us then they are not good enough end of!
Here is to a quiet lowkey season next year without the chasing Q - hey i will be able to go on holiday for 2 weeks instead of standing in muddy fields getting soaked and towed out.
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Post by Philippa on Aug 7, 2017 19:51:12 GMT
Im sorry but I have witnessed this first hand this year.. competitors in the judging boxes just before a hoys class chatting away to the judges like they are best friends - low and behold winners! Also judges giving a ticket at one show to have the favour returned at another.. this is in direct public on social media so it is set in stone. Showing is so expensive the championship shows are getting less and less in the non Q classes as people are putting there all into the Qs. We have done it for a few years now. And to what avail? Nothing and one of ours is a previous hoys winner - face does not fit so neither does the results. Iv lost track of how many times we have been told to put XYZ on ours and they will clear up - no thanks if they are not good enough with us then they are not good enough end of! Here is to a quiet lowkey season next year without the chasing Q - hey i will be able to go on holiday for 2 weeks instead of standing in muddy fields getting soaked and towed out. " We've been pretty low key this year, only a couple of RI's & a couple of hoys. In fact I think I only did 2 shows in June. Bonus on the pocket!!!!
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Post by I know also on Aug 8, 2017 9:25:12 GMT
Im sorry but I have witnessed this first hand this year.. competitors in the judging boxes just before a hoys class chatting away to the judges like they are best friends - low and behold winners! Also judges giving a ticket at one show to have the favour returned at another.. this is in direct public on social media so it is set in stone. Showing is so expensive the championship shows are getting less and less in the non Q classes as people are putting there all into the Qs. We have done it for a few years now. And to what avail? Nothing and one of ours is a previous hoys winner - face does not fit so neither does the results. Iv lost track of how many times we have been told to put XYZ on ours and they will clear up - no thanks if they are not good enough with us then they are not good enough end of! Here is to a quiet lowkey season next year without the chasing Q - hey i will be able to go on holiday for 2 weeks instead of standing in muddy fields getting soaked and towed out. " We've been pretty low key this year, only a couple of RI's & a couple of hoys. In fact I think I only did 2 shows in June. Bonus on the pocket!!!! Best way to be. I shall be doing the same next year. Enjoying my ponies for what they are. And my bank balance will thabk me
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Post by Cojudge on Aug 8, 2017 11:37:49 GMT
" We've been pretty low key this year, only a couple of RI's & a couple of hoys. In fact I think I only did 2 shows in June. Bonus on the pocket!!!! Best way to be. I shall be doing the same next year. Enjoying my ponies for what they are. And my bank balance will thabk me Us too. Anyway, I'm putting my money where my mouth is and just not bothering in future. Hoping TSR can clean things up so we can get back into it at some point. If not, then we won't miss it anyway.
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Post by I know 2 on Aug 8, 2017 12:46:16 GMT
Competitors. who are not happy with the way HOYS classes are being judged must vote with their feet,untill this happens nothing will get done,perhaps when the HOYS classes get less entries and Grandstand Media get less revenue GM might try and sort this situation out,no point in moaning on here,the societies know what's going on and do nothing about it with the exception of TSR,good luck to you trying to clean things up
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Post by I know 2 on Aug 8, 2017 15:07:12 GMT
Competitors. who are not happy with the way HOYS classes are being judged must vote with their feet,untill this happens nothing will get done,perhaps when the HOYS classes get less entries and Grandstand Media get less revenue GM might try and sort this situation out,no point in moaning on here,the societies know what's going on and do nothing about it with the exception of TSR,good luck to you trying to clean things up
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Post by Emporium on Aug 8, 2017 20:23:22 GMT
I often wonder if people are still aware of the fable "the Emperors clothes" - if not its worth a google and will at least give you a giggle. Applies to many things in life but especially to much of the social media hype!
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Post by Philippa on Aug 9, 2017 1:43:06 GMT
I often wonder if people are still aware of the fable "the Emperors clothes" - if not its worth a google and will at least give you a giggle. Applies to many things in life but especially to much of the social media hype! This hits the nail bang on the head 🤣🤣
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Post by Confused.com on Aug 9, 2017 7:12:41 GMT
I think this post has gone wayward - the OP was about a judge breaking a rule, and was by no means to start a judge bashing thread.
I still haven't heard anything nor have I seen any developments regarding this rule break. All I have been told is that it is bieng 'investigated'
The investigation should have started back on 20th June when it was first brought to GM attention, however GM have confirmed I understand the rule correctly, the said judge SHOULD NOT be judging the final and I think that all those competitors that's have paid probably thousands trying to qualify should be bieng made aware what is going on!!
In the past there has been ZERO tolerance of competitors breaking the rules and I feel this is bieng 'ignored' and perhaps said judge will be stood in the middle of that ring in October.
I do hope not, otherwise it makes a mockery of the whole thing!
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Post by waspblue on Aug 9, 2017 22:30:00 GMT
I think this post has gone wayward - the OP was about a judge breaking a rule, and was by no means to start a judge bashing thread. I still haven't heard anything nor have I seen any developments regarding this rule break. All I have been told is that it is bieng 'investigated' The investigation should have started back on 20th June when it was first brought to GM attention, however GM have confirmed I understand the rule correctly, the said judge SHOULD NOT be judging the final and I think that all those competitors that's have paid probably thousands trying to qualify should be bieng made aware what is going on!! In the past there has been ZERO tolerance of competitors breaking the rules and I feel this is bieng 'ignored' and perhaps said judge will be stood in the middle of that ring in October. I do hope not, otherwise it makes a mockery of the whole thing! That's exactly it...the whole of showing has become z complete mockery. Maybe the answer is something like classes for professional producers only and genuine amateurs only, however I'm sure suddenly there'd be a rush of people who immediately became 'genuine amateurs' despite the world and his dog knowing it is a complete lie. Ah sorry....that's what's known as 'home produced' which is no longer just full of genuine home produced people and ponies, but infiltrated by pros as it is an easy win for them and puts the prize money in their pockets, so soul destroying for the really genuine home produced people. Showing as a whole needs simplifying down to one governing body and one set of rules that everyone must abide by and that can be properly policed. It wouldn't be dissimilar to how BD have one main rule book, yet do all sorts of other things under their big umbrella, such as para dressage, racehorse to dressage horse, my quest, team quest, native pony champs, Arab champs etc etc. So before anyone says "oh but that's different" no, it isn't and it all runs fairly under the one umbrella of BD, the points system ensures that if you aren't eligible to compete at a certain level, you aren't allowed to even enter. Maybe a Showing points system may work, who knows....or horror of horrors, would that make things far too transparent and honest for the showing world to contend with lol!!!
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Post by waspblue on Aug 9, 2017 22:37:22 GMT
Competitors. who are not happy with the way HOYS classes are being judged must vote with their feet,untill this happens nothing will get done,perhaps when the HOYS classes get less entries and Grandstand Media get less revenue GM might try and sort this situation out,no point in moaning on here,the societies know what's going on and do nothing about it with the exception of TSR,good luck to you trying to clean things up This is exactly what I have done, no more wasting my money, time, energy and effort on something that is so blatantly 'fixed'. Joining BD has been a breath of fresh air and I find a point in going out each time, watching and learning from others. Having a written sheet with the judges views and thoughts on how my pony has gone, whether the comments are good or not so good, they are virtually always accurate and usually very constructive and helpful. Now these are words that don't go hand in hand with showing in any way shape or form sadly. I often wonder if people are still aware of the fable "the Emperors clothes" - if not its worth a google and will at least give you a giggle. Applies to many things in life but especially to much of the social media hype! This hits the nail bang on the head 🤣🤣
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Post by the showing register on Aug 10, 2017 4:24:13 GMT
Waspblue I quite agree with one umbrella but at admin level people tend to protect their jobs and so its unlikely to happen The Showing Council which is a sort of umbrella sits on its hands unable to agree
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Post by Cojudge on Aug 12, 2017 20:22:46 GMT
Waspblue I quite agree with one umbrella but at admin level people tend to protect their jobs and so its unlikely to happen The Showing Council which is a sort of umbrella sits on its hands unable to agree Well then it has to be up to HOYS to take over it's own qualifiers and then people can decide which other societies they wish to join for the 'fun' of it and then they can sack off the societies which are too corrupt.
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Post by Podgy on Aug 15, 2017 13:10:33 GMT
we have been critised for most of the season for being to lean! In one mixed class a Connie walked in and I could have sworn it was a highland due to the body mass and short legs, placed above us as we were to lean. That poor pony struggled to canter and yet ours was moving freely and extending. Another class the section D had such a crest it was beginning to lean, it did do a lovely show but there were pockets of fat on its body. Such a shame, but we enjoyed our times out seeing lots of people and making new friends!
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Post by gillwales on Aug 15, 2017 16:10:31 GMT
we have been critised for most of the season for being to lean! In one mixed class a Connie walked in and I could have sworn it was a highland due to the body mass and short legs, placed above us as we were to lean. That poor pony struggled to canter and yet ours was moving freely and extending. Another class the section D had such a crest it was beginning to lean, it did do a lovely show but there were pockets of fat on its body. Such a shame, but we enjoyed our times out seeing lots of people and making new friends! I had a lovely RP broodmare, local to us was one person who had her ponies so fat that 3 had to be pts as they could no longer stand, however when she could get them sound she would often beat mine and the comment was that the other mare was more "finished" However I was happy with a 2nd and a sound healthy pony. You should feel the same
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Post by bubbles1822 on Aug 15, 2017 19:09:14 GMT
After last season we decided to give the hoys a miss this year and put the fun back into showing for us! Had a great time this season doing the nps qualifiers, agricultural shows and going to some new places bringing a new novice out. The open pony managed 3 shows before he went to summer champs... Hope showing can go back to people having fun and enjoying the ponies!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Aug 15, 2017 19:24:56 GMT
The two of my ponies being ridden for me have not done HOYS either but had huge fun doing dressage, WHP, SJ, arena eventing and parading the hounds at shows! Along the way amassing points for the Performance Awards and qualifying for various things at the NPS Chs. Only the A went to the Chs and not the baby D but she had a great show being placed in the Picton Final, two classes of Pairs and dressage, qualifying for Addington next year in the process at P anad N.
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Post by stepping back on Aug 21, 2017 9:13:01 GMT
On a seperate note TSR are shortly going to be running a survey regarding a Charter for judges and exhibitors. Showing cannot continue to be the dark place it has become for many people this season. We have never has so many complaints many not actual rule breaking but what I would call pushing the boundaries of integrity ... all of which are being dealt with.
We are taking a step back from doing qualifiers had enough of the whole click and the predictability and poor performance being rewarded with tickets ,not to mention the outrageous cost involved ,i have heard quite few people who are also so disillusioned and fed up with it they too are taking a step back from doing quals with coloureds and mms people have had enough .
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Post by the showing register on Aug 21, 2017 12:21:07 GMT
Stepping back I think it is those two sections that are the most susceptible from 2018 TSR will have 80 new experienced HOYS judges for the Coloured panel so shows will have a wider diversity to choose from
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Post by Stepped back also on Aug 21, 2017 16:35:04 GMT
Stepping back I think it is those two sections that are the most susceptible from 2018 TSR will have 80 new experienced HOYS judges for the Coloured panel so shows will have a wider diversity to choose from This is pleasing news. I did HOYS coloured qualifiers for the first time last season. Despite some very good placings I made the decision I would not repeat the experience. I just found that we experienced some quite peculiar judging, so a wider choice of judges must be a positive move. I also know it is difficult to please everyone but I found that there were too few qualifiers (coloureds) on the west of the country. There appeared to be plenty around the Newark area. Understand that qualifiers can only be where show organisers will have them, but the travelling began to be prohibitive, Have greatly enjoyed a less stressful season, particularly in terms of travelling, with my new novice pony and have also hit the dressage scene which has been very enjoyable. Perhaps I might be tempted next year to do HOYS but suspect I might go further down the dressage route.
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Nothing has Changed
Guest
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Post by Nothing has Changed on Aug 22, 2017 9:16:13 GMT
Although so many feel judging has changed for the worst in recent times, I would suggest nothing has changed for a very long time! Judges generally fall into one of the following categories: 1. Knowledgeable and experienced judges who judge what they see on the day. (more of these than you think) 2. Judges who lack knowledge and tend to follow form. They feel then that no one will criticize their decisions. (these judges have been owners, sponsors but are not really horse people) 3. Judges who should know better but favour professional yards/riders (have all the knowledge and experience but don't use it appropriately) 4. Judges who exhibit themselves and put up exhibitors who are also judges. Hoping the favour will be returned in the future (this has gone on for years and has caused much unrest) 5. Judges who know very little, have managed to get on to some panels but are not really up to the job. (lots of these too, mostly at local level but claw their way up) Over time you get to know what category a judge fits into. Results are often predictable regardless of performance. Very often the result is the judges opinion, you may not agree, you may be disgruntled BUT that's why you paid your entry fee....... for that judge's opinion. If you don't like it, don't show under them again BUT don't take to Social Media and complain. Unfortunately so many exhibitors are unrealistic about their horses and ponies..... they're not good enough, they don't go well enough, they don't know how to stand them up and yet they still expect miracles. At least 50% of animals that enter qualifiers should be showing at a lower level as their animals are just not good enough! Everyone should be enjoying what they are doing, if you are showing at the right level then you will be successful. If aiming too high you will be disappointed.
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Post by the showing register on Aug 22, 2017 10:45:23 GMT
Nothing has changed this is all so true. I have been exhibiting for 50 years and it has always been thus. The change now is far more people showing MM and Coloureds who probably should be taking more time to establish themselves at non Qualifiers before taking on the big boys and the discrepancies in the judging are highlighted by the marks.
All everyone wants is a level playing field most of the complaints come from exhibiting and then judging .
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Post by Well Said on Aug 22, 2017 16:34:04 GMT
Well said Nothing has Changed a very honest/true assessment of judges. The only thing of course that HAS changed is social media. Before facebook et al people moaned/voiced an opinion but in private now people are so quick to smell a rat even if there is not one to smell! I think some even manufacture the 'rat' to cause trouble! Competitors who stay the course learn their craft from watching others, take the rough with the smooth and remember which judges fall into those categories you describe so well! They also should as you say be realistic about their animals,look at your competitors and be honest about your own animals,everyone seems to think their horse/pony is a HOYS winner - very few are! But it doesn't mean you can't enjoy competing and aim to improve.
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