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Post by Hoys judge on Aug 27, 2017 19:18:16 GMT
If a judge judges a HOYS qualifying class earlier in the year, are they then able to compete in the same HOYS section later in the year ?
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Post by Whatever next on Aug 27, 2017 19:38:52 GMT
Don't know the rules but common sense and creditability would suggest not! I assume someone is upset that this could happen hence the post?
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Post by Yup on Aug 27, 2017 19:48:06 GMT
Happens in every society!
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Post by the showing register on Aug 28, 2017 5:50:05 GMT
Yes under current rules
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Post by Whatever next on Aug 28, 2017 9:22:00 GMT
Showing register thats balmy!! Are you really saying someone can compete one day and judge the next in the same class? What a strange world we live in. May I suggest there is a poll to see whether people consider this acceptable. No wonder people are opting out of showing. Whilst I agree part of the art is having a beautifully schooled animal, true to type etc and part of the art of showing is knowing which type/faults a judge finds acceptable to actual have someone judge a class they have or hope to qualify for is just plain 'bonkers'. Easier to put names in a hat and pull one out.
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Post by Fair Judge on Aug 28, 2017 9:34:07 GMT
I judge and compete in the same section.
My outlook is if I was not lucky enough to win at HOYS, if I qualified, then I would be delighted if the pony I qualified did. I would always try to find the pony that deserved to qualify on that day.
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Post by the showing register on Aug 28, 2017 13:06:00 GMT
Showing register thats balmy!! Are you really saying someone can compete one day and judge the next in the same class? What a strange world we live in. May I suggest there is a poll to see whether people consider this acceptable. No wonder people are opting out of showing. Whilst I agree part of the art is having a beautifully schooled animal, true to type etc and part of the art of showing is knowing which type/faults a judge finds acceptable to actual have someone judge a class they have or hope to qualify for is just plain 'bonkers'. Easier to put names in a hat and pull one out. Watch this space survey in the pipeline ... next 2 weeks ...
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Post by Ridiculous on Aug 28, 2017 16:09:02 GMT
Almost as ridiculous as the RI final judge competing and winning a qualifier for the class she would be later judging. Yes she gave up the ticket but by no means competed Hor Concour as was in the championship.
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Post by Realistic on Aug 29, 2017 8:06:09 GMT
Whilst I agree it can cause some bad feeling when judges who judge HOYS qualifiers also compete in the same sections (obviously not talking about HOYS final judges who definately cannot compete in the same year), it has however been happening for as long as I can remember in all sections. It also depends on your definition of competing. Judges may not ride themselves but certainly a lot of Pony qualifiers are judged by producers who will have ponies competing in HOYS qualifers, also judges may not ride themselves but be owners of animals who are ridden in same sections. BSHA classes are the same although I believe you cannot judge and ride in the same section (please correct me if wrong as not involved in these anymore) however there is a thin line between the classes. For example you might judge a Hack HOYS qualifier and compete in Riding Horse qualifiers. I am not saying this is wrong I am saying that it is not as simple as saying competitors should not compete in the same section they judge in. Again how would you define M&M judging for example you could have someone judge a HOYS small breed section but competing in large breeds or junior classes. From TSR post it sounds like it is being looked at, great but I hope it is considered carefully before some knee jerk rule is imposed that means we lose some excellent fair and knowledgable judges.
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Post by bigmama on Aug 29, 2017 9:05:49 GMT
Showing register thats balmy!! Are you really saying someone can compete one day and judge the next in the same class? What a strange world we live in. May I suggest there is a poll to see whether people consider this acceptable. No wonder people are opting out of showing. Whilst I agree part of the art is having a beautifully schooled animal, true to type etc and part of the art of showing is knowing which type/faults a judge finds acceptable to actual have someone judge a class they have or hope to qualify for is just plain 'bonkers'. Easier to put names in a hat and pull one out. It's nothing new, has been this way in all sections of showing for as long as I can remember and I've been showing for 28 years, which does not make it palatable but still, many unconnected folk still qualify for RI/Hoys/Olympia despite of it
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Post by Realistic on Aug 29, 2017 9:28:31 GMT
Call me sad but I have just out of interest looked through the 2017 HOYS qualifier judges. Now I don't claim to know everyone's connections so this might not be 100% accurate but I reckon: HOYS M&M qualifiers (including Junior & LR/FR) - 2 judges who currently compete in ridden classes; 16 who either own or produce ponies that are currently competing. HOYS SP/SHP/Int classes - obviously no riders as not old enough to judge! 5 judges who again either own or produce ponies competing in classes.
I cannot comment on Horse or Coloured classes as I don't have the knowledge but it is quite interesting. I think the issue with the M&M is that many breeders also judge & have ponies competing even if not directly by them so this is sometimes where the connections come into play. I am still not sure what a 'blanket ban' would achieve - if people are sensing 'corrupt' judging favours can be done in other qualifiers for example I could qualify your pony for HOYS and you qualify mine for Olympia. This is just all part of the bigger picture of ensuring fair judging and as I said I hope it is really thought out before assuming all judges who have an interest in classes are biased.
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Post by MrsShowing on Aug 29, 2017 13:35:32 GMT
We're going to end up with no judges at this rate.
Could people please try to remember that a 'society' is a group of people with a shared/common interest. By virtue of that shared interest, the longer you are in a society (any form of society, not just showing), the more 'connected' you will inevitably be to others in that society. It is how society works, in all fields. It does not mean that people are corrupt because they are connected. In fact, in my experience as both a competitor and a judge in M&M and Coloured classes at top level, the more connected you are the more you have to up your game and the more you/your winner have/has to pull off an an absolutely outstanding performance in order to justify the result. Don't for one minute think that it is easy when you know absolutely every judge on the circuit... It is doubly hard because you cannot and will not be forgiven the slightest, least visible failing, because every result has to be above question. In fact very often, your friends and associates are looking for justifiable reasons NOT to put you in the winning position so that they don't get ripped to shreds on social media.
The fact is that in all walks of life there are honourable people and less honourable people, there are people who are connected and those who are not connected, there is fairness and unfairness. It's life folks, join in or opt out.
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Post by the showing register on Aug 29, 2017 14:14:07 GMT
It is the biggest cause of complaints this season and sometimes it seems integrity has been lacking. We are putting together the survey this week so you can all have your say and we will have some data ...
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Post by mcnaughty on Aug 29, 2017 14:25:43 GMT
We're going to end up with no judges at this rate. Could people please try to remember that a 'society' is a group of people with a shared/common interest. By virtue of that shared interest, the longer you are in a society (any form of society, not just showing), the more 'connected' you will inevitably be to others in that society. It is how society works, in all fields. It does not mean that people are corrupt because they are connected. In fact, in my experience as both a competitor and a judge in M&M and Coloured classes at top level, the more connected you are the more you have to up your game and the more you/your winner have/has to pull off an an absolutely outstanding performance in order to justify the result. Don't for one minute think that it is easy when you know absolutely every judge on the circuit... It is doubly hard because you cannot and will not be forgiven the slightest, least visible failing, because every result has to be above question. In fact very often, your friends and associates are looking for justifiable reasons NOT to put you in the winning position so that they don't get ripped to shreds on social media. The fact is that in all walks of life there are honourable people and less honourable people, there are people who are connected and those who are not connected, there is fairness and unfairness. It's life folks, join in or opt out. Totally agree with this - surely the whole point of being a judge is that you do it because you love the sport and are a 'specialist' in that type of animal ie show pony type breeders and producers would be the most suitable show pony type judges so how on earth could you ever expect to separate the two? If you told a breeder or producer they had to choose between their livelihood and judging then we wouldn't have any judges surely?
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Post by I'm a judge on Aug 30, 2017 7:52:30 GMT
We're going to end up with no judges at this rate. Could people please try to remember that a 'society' is a group of people with a shared/common interest. By virtue of that shared interest, the longer you are in a society (any form of society, not just showing), the more 'connected' you will inevitably be to others in that society. It is how society works, in all fields. It does not mean that people are corrupt because they are connected. In fact, in my experience as both a competitor and a judge in M&M and Coloured classes at top level, the more connected you are the more you have to up your game and the more you/your winner have/has to pull off an an absolutely outstanding performance in order to justify the result. Don't for one minute think that it is easy when you know absolutely every judge on the circuit... It is doubly hard because you cannot and will not be forgiven the slightest, least visible failing, because every result has to be above question. In fact very often, your friends and associates are looking for justifiable reasons NOT to put you in the winning position so that they don't get ripped to shreds on social media. The fact is that in all walks of life there are honourable people and less honourable people, there are people who are connected and those who are not connected, there is fairness and unfairness. It's life folks, join in or opt out. This is totally true. As a judge and also an exhibitor I would just have to give up judging. I'm not going to give up my livelihood of exhibiting for a year, but judging - which ultimately costs me money to do for a day, will have to go. A side effect of this will also be that IF the judges who are exhibitors stop doing it you may well be left with a number of judges who are not riding fit......left as your ride judges.
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Post by Older 1 on Aug 30, 2017 9:11:01 GMT
But one of the problems would appear to be that there are less ride judges about than there used to be, and in many classes especially M&M (apart from breed shows) there is no longer a ride judge. Lets say 30 or 40 years ago it was common for a judge to use a 'rider' sometimes called a ride judge, if they did not want to ride themselves, to assess an animal under saddle. This provided a great opportunity for people to gain experience on the job and learn from an older more experienced person. Sadly the standards are not what they once were and although many things have changed and you can now buy a "professionally produced" animal with a ticket for whatever your fancy, there is no guarantee that the animal will continue its winning ways with the new set up. Maybe this is the big difference alongside integrity - exhibitors i.e. producers are now out to make money and will do so at any cost, some come and go after a year or so, the better ones stay around longer and the true all-round horsemen and women have many different strings to their success and other disciplines as well as showing to earn a crust. I agree there are honourable and less honourable people the world over but its sad to see. Maybe the rise in numbers and increased interest in, for example, M&M breeds is contributing to this. The discussions about judging/type/height/standards often without adequate knowledge or support/knowledge of the breed societies are not helpful, and even more worrying the numbers being bred are decreasing year by year, before long there won't be many left.
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