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Post by kmg on Aug 4, 2009 8:40:47 GMT
Just wondering if anyone has got any useful advice for me please?
Recently whenever i try to gallop or extend my pony as i'm asking him to slow down he is opening his mouth and just leaning on the bit making it very difficult to collect him back. Last night i put a flash noseband on him and that stopped him from doing it but i'm worried when i take it off hes going to go back to leaning. He doesnt do it in trot or canter, just when he gets a bit excited.
Also i try to use my seat as much as possible to slow him which works with the flash on.... when i take it off will he remember he can lean on the bit?
Any help is appreciated ;D
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Post by carys on Aug 4, 2009 10:04:09 GMT
I would take hime back to basics at home. It sounds like a balance issue and the best think to do is never to get into a leaning match against him! Try asking for a few strides of lengthening then as soon he thinks about leaning turn him on to a large circle taking care to turn the outside shoulder to keep the balance. As soon as he is turning feel you can soften the arm and allow him to balance on his own legs. Take care not to get too much neck bend or allow the quarters to push out. As he releases then return to the straight line and ask for lengthening again. Build it up slowly and don't ask for too much forward at one go initially. Eventually you should be able to ride just a little flexion in the poll to 'threaten' a circle and then a half halt in the outside rein to say 'wait' followed by a relaxation in the arm to allow him to balance on his own legs.
Outside of the school if you are lucky enough to have hills in your area introduce going forwards up an incline to avoid the leaning and pulling.
Any exercises which teach him to take more weight behind in any pace will also help. Try pole work in trot and or raised poles on a circle to activate the hind legs after the initial warm up session and before you move onto the extention work.
If its better in a flash investigate if he is having a tendancy to open his mouth to lean or slightly cross the jaw. It's fine to use the flash as an 'aid' to help,but as you quite rightly said you need to know that it won't happen when the flash comes off so use the noseband to help you but make sure you are able to influence the speed and suppleness yourself, through turns and transitions, so not to rely on it.
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Post by lexy on Aug 4, 2009 11:45:06 GMT
Excellent reply from carys ! In general if leaning on the bit in downward transitions, then this means they are too on the forehand and not engaged through behind (my own horse does this too sometimes). So lots of work to try and really engage the back end, or as my dressage trainer says - you want to change horse from being front wheel drive to rear wheel drive !! Also to avoid problem try and use your seat and back to ask for the downward transition as much as possible, and as little hand/rein aid as possible. My little cob mare will go from trot to halt (or canter to walk) with seat and weight aid only , but if I try and "pull" her into slower pace then she will stick nose out and pull faces ! To emphasis this to begin with actually lean right back so your body is behind the vertical, until the pony does transition. And then lots of praise, and then as you keep repeating this you should be able to get to a stage where you just sit deep, and pony comes through from behind and fwds in transition without hollowing and becoming dis-engaged. Hope that makes sense and helps ! Lexy
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Post by lexy on Aug 4, 2009 11:46:10 GMT
P.S. personally I would not use flash at all. Firstly you cant really use it in the ring anyway, and secondly it is not helping the real problem only sort of temporarily disguising it. And at worst pony might hold tension elsewhere if mouth is strapped shut and end up tweaking muscle/back.
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Post by kmg on Aug 4, 2009 11:59:49 GMT
Lexy/Carys..... thank you both for your answers, they are very helpful and i will try all what has been suggested. Lets hope they work.
The pony will be 5 this year and i really dont want him to get into any bad habbits so need to sort this asap - Will start tonight!
oh and my instructor says the exact same, as front wheel and rear wheel drive! x x
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Post by brookhouse on Oct 6, 2009 19:24:35 GMT
hi my childs pony did the same thing, so we changed the bit , but she did it with my children so I taught them every time she leans push her on but give with hand, this has worked for us, but she is only 4 and I know rome was not built in a day and she is a baby , but as the season has go on she now trys to hold herself and not be carried
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Post by lolalou on Oct 6, 2009 20:43:58 GMT
Hi Brookhouse, My daughters young pony is the same and again we are telling her to release the hand and squeeze with the leg, what bit did you try and did it help?
Thanks
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2009 22:37:56 GMT
I have a waterford that corrects this problem- but like all bits it has to be used sympathetically
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 7, 2009 9:33:01 GMT
I would second Lexy's post. Definitely sounds like a balance issue which the usual schooling will correct in time. Muscle and hence balance is not built in a day. I think I am 99% sure that you pony is opening his mouth as he is falling onto his forehand grasping the bit to balance (the leaning) and basically has to open his mouth as it is not all that comfortable trying to balance half a tonne on a bit. I don' rate leaning as a problem as such, pretty much most horses will do it if given the chance, rather a schooling challenge.
In my view neither a bit nor a flash corrects the problem they merely mask it so you think it has gone away, but actually the little voice at the back of the head is telling you it hasn't. I think the only thing is correct schooling and time.
I do think you can make the problem worse with a bit though, straight bars don't help and a wilkie will positively give you a wonderful problem.
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Post by fox111 on Oct 7, 2009 18:35:07 GMT
cary's fab answer .... i always do lots of transitions and lateral to warm up and then ask when concentrating and engaged.
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Post by brookhouse on Oct 15, 2009 20:41:04 GMT
hi I had a majic bit till it was sorted out, worked really well and the pony was much happier, now she is schooled and going well we have gone to a wilkie and all happy,and yes lots and lots of walk to slow trot really helps when it comes it comes it just takes alot of work at the begining
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Post by brookhouse on Oct 15, 2009 20:48:00 GMT
I don't think wilikes cause problems, as long as the child has still hands, yes I never used one until I went in the fr and all the children had great head carriage ,and they are you the line up for it with there wilkies. my children are very small and light, ie 3 stone and ride a full up 12 hnns in opens so he needs to know the pony is listening and a wilkie works well when the legs are a little small. but yes schooling is most important not a quick fix . it took our pony about 4 months to learn to carry herself and not rely on little people. but it was worth it shes fab now
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 20, 2009 10:56:30 GMT
With all due respect and not meant to cause offence to anyone, a wilkie like any other bit is fine when used by an experienced rider for a particular reason and particular pony.
Unfortunately it tends to be used to get a pony's head down and to replace correct schooling and muscle building. Hence why it is used so much for little children that cannot work ponies from behind. As head down is sufficient for some people, in a very short space of time the pony will start to lean to relieve the poll pressure exerted as the pony is on its forehand with its head levered in.
Hang your bridle from a pole, lift the reins and you will see exactly what happens in a pony's mouth and more importantly to a pony's neck with a wilkie.
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Post by carys on Oct 20, 2009 14:53:01 GMT
As a rider and a trainer I have happily used wilkies on certain animals in certain situations including correction of bad habits. I think you have to assess the 'source' of the pulling or locking. Some animals will lock just behind the saddle in the body, some will lock from the base of the neck others will lock in the poll either laterally or by poking the nose. This is perhaps why some people have found wilkies useful as they can for a short time help with the poking of the nose type of pull. In this situation however it sounds as if this is a serious pull where the whole of the animals body is being pushed it to the contact and away from the hindlegs. Although difficult to assess without seeing it I would have to agree with sageandonion for 2 reasons. 1) When something pulls to this extent it takes a very disciplined rider not to pull or draw back. When a wilkie rotates (in a simialr way a gag does) it almost encourages the feel back to pick up a contact. If you are not careful you run the risk of it fully rotaing and leaving no 'give at all' on the end of the rein. When the rider gives you then have to wait for it to unrotate before you can feel again. 2) In retraining situations I like to feel what it happening on the end of the rein. Because there is movement within the wilkie you don't always know what has moved in relation to your half halt. If an animal came to me in a gag or a wilkie due to a pulling problem the first thing I would do would be to move it into a snaffle to 'feel' what was going on. Depending on the situation I would then either school from there in a similar fashion to what I suggested initially or change bit. The changing of bit is merely another tool in my box as a trainer- not a solution to the problem but a way to suggest a difference to the horse so I can start to work it's body and not the contact, which it clearly already has some issues with if it is taking charge in front. Different people work animals in different methods and to me there is no right or wrong, you work from experience and what has worked for you in the situations you have come across. I can agree also with brookhouse in the use of wilkies for small children on ponies in the ring. I however don't agree with Mr Wilkinson that his bits should be allowed for dressage (for the above reasons)! I am interested in what others would do.
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Post by sageandonion on Oct 21, 2009 7:04:14 GMT
I am happy with the selection of 'dressage legal" bits at present and there is quite a selection, though perhaps a bitless bridle should be allowed for those with horses having difficulty with their mouth. Also those using bitless for natural horsemanship type purposes would be able to compete dressage and some do quite beautiful work. Not into natural horsemanship myself, I have seen a couple of such horses working beautifully, round, through and effectively on the bridle in their NH halters.
Whilst I do think gags, wilkies and other bits have their place in the hands of those experienced enough to use them correctly, these are more widely used to give the less experienced rider the false illusion that they "have the horse on the bit". I therefore think the standard of riding would fall if other 'gadget type' bits were allowed in dressage.
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kpl1
Newbie
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Post by kpl1 on Nov 2, 2009 17:52:42 GMT
Try re-training the halt from walk from the very lightest aid. When your horse will halt from a slight closing of the hand. You can then progress to training the downward transitions, the same way and then he will start to carry himself and not rely on the contact to support him. www.balancedequestrian.com
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Post by sageandonion on Nov 2, 2009 21:21:40 GMT
KMG I wondered whether you have tried any of the exercises mentioned here yet or whether you have found another solution/schooling exercise and can report how it is going. Reason being, it is such a common problem which I come across with mine from time to time.
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Post by iluvmyponies on Nov 2, 2009 22:37:32 GMT
I have found that a waterford bit works wonders xxx
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