POTENTIAL COLOUR OF FOAL?? update!

[freya]

hi, just wondered if anyone has any ideas on what the likely colour will be of our sec d's foal whos due next year?

The mare is a dark/liver chestnut with four whites, and the stallion (sec c) is a palomino with 4 whites......any ideas?

We bred from a grey mare 4 years ago and put her to a coloured stallion and her foal was chestnut. I remember someone telling me at the time that she was likely to not have a coloured foal because of the colour combination?

thanks in advance
FOAL WAS BORN YESTERDAY...PALOMINO FILLY..SHES GORGEOUS!

[r.e.d]

This website is quite useful

www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp

[ffynnoncadno]

I'm going with chestnut ;D

[pattendown]

chestnut or pally but you ever know as with greys it depends on the base colour of the mare

[freya]

Thanks guys !

I did go on a colour genes site and it looks quite complex.

It will be interesting....cant wait!

[geegees]

Think it could be 50% chestnut 50% palomino, i had the same colour combinations and the same mare has had 3 palominos and 2 chestnuts. but yeh it does depend on what the palominos parents were also. My palomino was by a chestnut roan (or could have been sabino lol this is where it gets confusing) out of a palomino.
Im sure it will be a lovely foal what ever the colour

[kayjayem]

chestnut x palomino can only produce 50/50 chestnut or palomino regardless of the grandparents colour. Chestnut is recessive therefore can't carry any other colour and palomino is chestnut with 1 dilute gene therefore if it passes on the dilute the foal is palomino and if it doesn't it will be chestnut!(hope that makes sense)

[Rascal1]

i think it will be a chestnut woth 4 whites

[nici]

As kayjayem said - if one parent is Chestnut and the other is dilute chestnut (palomino), the foal will have 100% chance of inheriting the chestnut base colour and 50% chance of inheriting the dilute gene.

So 50/50 chestnut / pally.

[drenrowstud]

we did the same cros the other way round dark liver stallion on a pally mare we got a pally foal but the mare was line bred for palamino

i would say pally or chestnut .if your foal arrives with no pigment round its eyes dont panic it means you have a palamino , you shouldnt get a blue eyed cream from your cross

[heathers]

chestnut

[keepsake]

It really depends, I have a liver chestnut mare out of a pally mare and by a liver chestnut stallion. She was put to a pally stallion and produced a pally. But she already had some dilute in her hence why i think she produced a pally, we have put her to the same stallion to see what see produces
But at the same time i put my grey mare with nearly all grey in her breeding to my liver chestnut stallion and she has produced a liver chestnut foal... So it depends what your mares breeding has behind her and what the stallion has produced.

Its 50% pally or 50% chestnut that you will get but am guessing Chestnut

[freya]

Thanks for all the replies, will post a pic in spring! xx

[sarahp]

Kayjayem and nici have given the correct scientific answer!

As for grey keepsake - it's not strictly a colour but a gene that turns any other colour progressively whiter. If an animal carries two copies of the grey gene (ie is homozygous for it) it can only throw greys, and if it carries only one copy (heterozygous) it will throw 50% grey and 50% non-greys. Mated to another heterozygous grey would give you 25% non-grey, 25% homozygous grey and 50% heterozygous grey.

[keepsake]

Sept 7, 2009 8:01:29 GMT sarahp said:

Kayjayem and nici have given the correct scientific answer!

As for grey keepsake - it's not strictly a colour but a gene that turns any other colour progressively whiter. If an animal carries two copies of the grey gene (ie is homozygous for it) it can only throw greys, and if it carries only one copy (heterozygous) it will throw 50% grey and 50% non-greys. Mated to another heterozygous grey would give you 25% non-grey, 25% homozygous grey and 50% heterozygous grey.

Oh boy it gets confuddling Thanks for that though

[kaylee]

you can only make sure you have the right colour if you buy the colour you want because i have had a black colt out of 2 coloureds, it may also depend on the colour of parents and grandparents

[smokeycott]

PALLY OR CHESTNUT I THINK.

[kayjayem]

Sept 21, 2009 14:06:44 GMT smokeycott said:

PALLY OR CHESTNUT I THINK.

Yep that's all it can be - wait and see ;D

[smokeycott]

how exciting !!! but its such a long wait to find out !!!

[Jessica]

I think i remember being told that a palomino from a liver chestnut/ palomino cross is often a good colour (not too smutty etc!)

[freya]

It does seem ages off yet but mum is getting quite big already.

[Guestless]

Sept 20, 2009 16:28:09 GMT kaylee said:

you can only make sure you have the right colour if you buy the colour you want because i have had a black colt out of 2 coloureds, it may also depend on the colour of parents and grandparents

...or use a stallion that is homozygous for a particular colour

[sarahp]

Sorry, not as simple as that! It would need to be homozygous for a dominant gene, like tobiano. Homozygous chestnut could well throw a bay/black if the other parent carries the gene for the black colouration, which is dominant to non-black, ie chestnut. The cream dilution gene is incompletely dominant, just to be even more complicated.

[Guestless]

Yep, sorry was posting at work so didn't make it clear. Was meaning in terms of coloureds kaylee had mentioned 2 solid foals from a coloured.

[sarahp]

I'm always interested in why those wanting a particular colour when they breed - or to avoid one - don't go out and learn some colour genetics to help them. Not you of course Guestless, you obviously know what you are talking about! I just wanted to make it clear for other readers.

[freya]

Well personally, i havent bred for a 'colour' with this foal. Its her bloodlines we are interested in and type/conformation etc. This i know about.

All of which, i personally place above colour any day.
If i wanted to breed a 'colour' then i would talk to someone experienced who can advise. Dont have time to study such a matter although i find it interesting.

[Guestless]

Nov 24, 2009 8:30:48 GMT sarahp said:

I'm always interested in why those wanting a particular colour when they breed - or to avoid one - don't go out and learn some colour genetics to help them. Not you of course Guestless, you obviously know what you are talking about! I just wanted to make it clear for other readers.

I wish! I can just about work out homozygous for coloureds but that's about it, lol! My chosen breed only has black, brown, bay and grey though ;D

I used a grey for the first time in 2007 and 2008's arrival was just what the doctor ordered - lovely grey filly who is going to take years to grey out. Her mum's brown, so it would be interesting to know if that makes any difference to how long grey takes to appear. Sire had black base before going grey.

My yearling still looks black until you get really close up and then she looks roan more than anything else just now.

ETA - I'm with your freya, conformation and type come first, so my dabble with grey was an experiment that I was lucky with....I would have been just as delighted to have a healthy, live foal as having a grey.

Hoping for a black colt next year from another mare, so we will see what the foalie fairies bring - will definitely be black though.

[sarahp]

Well us breeders of Welshies have almost a full compliment available to us, barring coloureds! It all adds to the fun in my book, but personally am trying to avoid having an all grey herd of As at the moment. Nothing against greys, I just like variety.

I quite agree freya, the quality matters far more than the colour, I'm just a boring scientist fascinated by genetics, and my remarks were following the way the thread had gone and not aimed at you - your mating is very simple to assess anyway! I was really thinking of those that aim to breed a particular colour without the knowledge to choose stock appropriately or arrange suitable matings to give what they want. No individual in mind, just in case anyone takes the hump, just a general thought.

[freya]

Fair comment. Genetics are fascinating, sounds very complex though..something i would imagine you really have to get your head around.

just a frivalous thought then.....if both dam and sire have four whites, do you think our foal will also? Im sure the law of probabilities should indicate a high possibility but genetically is there a science for this probablitly?

just a thought

[sarahp]

Good chance of lots of white, but not necessarily all four.

Here's a piece of to me fascinating information - there is an environmental component to how the white legs come out, proved by embryo splitting experiments. Genetically identical twins formed by splitting an embryo and re-implanting the two bits (identical twins do not occur naturally in horses, only fraternal ones, ie those from two separate eggs) will come out with different leg markings, not identical ones as they would if completely genetically controlled. White on the legs is actually an absence of colour - the colour producing cells are produced on the spine of the embryo and migrate down the body and then the legs - if they stop short the result is a white leg!

Basic genetics is not that complicated, and there are some good articles and books around.