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Post by sarah00000 on Dec 27, 2009 13:35:18 GMT
As you know - my little 12hh pony went lame about 10 days ago and as she is laminitic, we presemed laminitis. She has been on box rest ever since and treated accordingly. THANKS FOR ALL THE HG ADVISE However, my 14 hh pony has now gone exactly the same! She has been turned out daily on the snow and had been eating hay in the paddock for about 2 hours a day, before being put back in. She may of course has laminitis too, as apparetly had it in the past, but never with us. However she has rather flat feet and I suspect she has bruised her soles on the frozen ground? HELP How can I tell the difference? Cant see the vet or farrier coming out till TUE at earliest, so need to treat myself till then. Have put her sugar/iodine poulices on for 2 nights.....shall I carry on with this?
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Post by liberty on Dec 27, 2009 15:05:53 GMT
i would give it bute as will help with either condition, if your farrier thinks its a bruised sole then sole pack would help ( sets like rubber in the feet ) my old boy has this all year round to protect his sole - works a treat - farrier just replaces it every time he is shod .
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Post by sarah00000 on Dec 27, 2009 16:29:55 GMT
Thanks Liberty - I gave her half a sachet last night and this morning, but maybe will give her a whole one for a day or two as she is a BIG 14hh, not a little dainty type.
I also just hot tubbed her for half an hour and will do that twice a day.
I feel like such a failure having 2 lame ponies in one go! Not used to 2 weeks of freezing snow and ice, down here in hampshire, so I have never experienced this problem with either of the ponies before.
Trouble I have now is that young mare Lilly, wont go out in the paddock on her own, as she is too scared without Charm. That means she is going to be confined to barracks too! Not ideal for a fit young horse.............feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall at the mo!
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Post by liberty on Dec 27, 2009 16:37:59 GMT
good luck hope the pony improves -
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Post by sageandonion on Dec 27, 2009 16:46:01 GMT
To be honest and to be safe, I would treat as laminitis which will help bruised sole anyway. In stable, thick bed, bute and if you have any a few ACPs which will encourage to lay down, soaked hay little and often, bland rations. That is what I would do, but you might want to just check with your vet first.
Your farrier will probably be able to identify whether laminitis or bruised sole with hoof testers as a bruised sole will cause more widespread pain, whereas laminitis generally confined to the toe region.
Watch for increase in pain whilst on box rest, an indicator of pus. I would not let this put you off administering bute as the pain of pus will be evident even with bute.
Try not to worry or feel bad, you cannot avoid sods law and it never rains but it pours.
I am sure I don't need to tell you to just go through routine and feed and look for any little changes. For example, as laminitics walk a fine tightrope, something like red cell could tip the balance. I know you have only feed hoofkind horsehage, but if you have been feeding this in the cold weather, I would cut it out, just in case that batch is richer than it should be. I know that sounds extreme, but as there is no explanation for this, I think you must be very aggressive with your treatment.
All things being equal, I am sure both your girlies will be fine in another week or so.
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Post by sageandonion on Dec 27, 2009 16:51:13 GMT
Just a thought, did you girl get stressed whilst in with the snow? stress can trigger lami. I would defo want to give her ACP is a bit stressy in stable, must keep blood pressure down.
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Post by sarah00000 on Dec 27, 2009 18:02:03 GMT
Thanks guys.
No she not been stressy at all?
She was 100% sound the day that Mini went lame after the farrier came, but on Christmas morning she could barely move. I didnt like to say anything on Christmas day, so just put her on the same laminitic care as Mini...........
She is never fed barely anything, as is a natural good doer and has energy in abundance. She lives on hay and a scoop of hi-fi light. She hasnt had any horsage haylage at all.
I really do think its the concussion and Mini's previous owner pmed me to say that Mini had once been diagnosed with Laminitis and it turned out to be a bruised sole........Who knows?
Basically I am treating them both as laminitis and will wait for the farrier to come after bank hols?
I have been googling the symptoms/treatment of both laminitis and bruised sole and they are pretty parrallel anyway.
What on earth am I going to do with Lilly in the meantime, with no-one to turn out with her? She will jump the post and rail fence if out there alone!
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Post by sageandonion on Dec 27, 2009 18:33:21 GMT
It is a predicament with Lily. In situations like this, I think you have to look at the broader and whole picture. Of course, it is nice to follow standard treatments to the letter, but it isn't always possible or indeed right for the pony or the group as a whole.
So long as the ground is soft and pony(s) not likely to tear around like looneys then you may be better to turn out for a short while under supervision. Really can't have Lily doing a woopsy and getting injured as well. Go with your instincts rather than the text book here, take a risk assessment and go with the flow once you make your decision.
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Post by pencaedu on Dec 27, 2009 18:37:03 GMT
Happened to us with a 16hh TB - had his feet trimmed a couple of days after he arrived with us (free gift), and went horribly lame - vets said lami, X-rayed etc... £400 later, it was no more than bruised soles. He can't cope with being trimmed & not shod.
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Post by sarah00000 on Dec 27, 2009 18:48:13 GMT
thanks pencaedu - I am wondering if as both ponies have been laminitic in the past, their soles are very sensitive and just cannot take the icy hard ground, sticking into their soles?
S&O - I agree with what you are saying and today put both charm and lilly in the school for 2 hours, but tommorrow its supposed to freeze again, so the hard ground wont be good for Charm! Bloomin weather is ganging up on me!
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
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Post by kayjayem on Dec 27, 2009 18:51:43 GMT
could you just hold the pony in the paddock basically as an "anchor" for Lilly while she has a blast, then Lilly lets off steam but pony can't eat anything or do any further damage to herself.
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
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Post by kayjayem on Dec 27, 2009 18:53:59 GMT
so long as it's not too hard for Lilly as well of course!
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Post by elliebee on Dec 27, 2009 19:24:42 GMT
My friends pony at the yard went severely lame 2 days ago, had been out in paddock came in sound next day she was propping herself up against the wall sweating etc.......Thought lami then fractured pedal bone.... turns out to be puss in the foot. Have you tried to poultice the foot? May be worth calling vet out to have a look. The vet came out to my friends but could not see anything but next day there was sooooo much puss. Good luck hope she comes sound xxxx
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Post by elliebee on Dec 27, 2009 19:29:37 GMT
Woops sorry just read the whole of your first thread, that will teach me to read the whole thing first. I think until you are able to call the vet or farrier just continue with what your doing xxx
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Post by amumwithapony on Dec 28, 2009 17:18:43 GMT
i wonder if they both have bruised soles LP? I know you have only just had blacksmith out and i wonder if they have both stomped about a bit on your horrible frozen ground and because they have just been trimmed they have bruised there poor little feet? i know my old blacksmith came and trimmed my pony last summer, and because he had problems at home (serious horrible ones) he was about 4 weeks late. he took a bit too much off i think, and then pony went on horsewalker for 2 days and went very footy. i thought at first it could have been lami, but i think she was just very footsore after a very thorough trim, and then walking on the tarmac path round the horewalker. has your blacksmith been late coming to you at all? or could he have been a little over enthusiastic when he has trimmed them? or have you changed your hay or feed and the newer stuff just not right for them? is very odd both of them going lame within a couple of days of each other. im sure its nothing you have done tho, have a karma to help with the stress and lets us know how they go on. (ps ACP's very good for lami, as it opens up the arteries and allows blood to circulate better round the laminee's which are the cells responsible for laminitis, so if you have some give them a couple. if you dont have any let me know. i may have a tube of sedalin gel somewhere that you can have and i'll send it recorded delivery, should be there wednesday for you)
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Post by sarah00000 on Dec 28, 2009 17:46:24 GMT
Ahh you are so kind amumwithapony! I dont have any acp - but I can get some from my neighbour tommorrow - who is a horse vet and friend (yes - i did pick my neighbours particularly well). How many ACP would you give them a day? Mini' s old owner also said it worked well for Mini, but my proper horse vet poo-pooed the idea? She said just to stick to bute? I am really thinking that both mares really do just have badly bruised soles due to the icy, unlevel ground, they were picking their way about on for about 4 days before they went lame. I am treating them for laminitis to be on the safe side. Mini is actually a lot better, but Charm is still very reluctant to move. However she is 3 days behind Mini with her recovery, so about right........ Neither of them, have been back on their heels - at any stage of their lameness
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Post by sageandonion on Dec 28, 2009 18:05:11 GMT
With regard to ACP, it depends on the individual. Some will be ga ga on two/three whereas I had a 14.2h who didn't seem to notice ten and only responded to sedalin which has something else in as well. I would start with two twice a day and see how it goes.
There are mixed views amongst the vets on ACP. The old fashioned way is to give ACP (I personally think they do help) but some vets now think they are of no use so not to bother. As far as I am aware no vets think they are detrimental, just maybe not worth bothering.
You should ask your friend (the vet) as there was someone who posted on here who said their pony was allergic to ACP, though I have never seen this.
At the very least, it encourages the pony to lie down and remain chilled, both of which are helpful I think.
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joey
Full Member
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Post by joey on Dec 28, 2009 18:19:53 GMT
ACP is not used like it used to be there are different sedatives on the market now and I would not give it without first consulting your Vet friend and checking first -
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Post by amumwithapony on Dec 28, 2009 18:48:28 GMT
well ive used sedalin gel on mine under the advice of both the vet and blacksmith, but you only need a tiny bit. i gave half a mil of sedalin to a sec a. you are not really aiming to sedate them, or even really chill them out, but apparantly one of the side effects of the acp is as i said to open the arteries, improving the blood flow around the laminee. my pony had been prescribed sedalin before as a sedative (and had to have about 4 mil for it to sedate heavy enough for what i wanted it to do) but it goes without saying that you are obviously administering a sedative, and you should read the label etc etc. but i know lovepink would have done that anyway, sensible little fairy that she is. but although some vets may not think it has any effect, i personally think that it can only help, even if only to chill them out for a while when on boxrest for any length of time. there is some very technical explanation somewhere on an other forum about why it is believed to work for laminitics, but i cant seem to find it. but i know i mentioned it to my blacksmith at the start of this summer, and he was very enthusiastic about its use, and he said he would rather treat a pony with acp's first rather than bute as bute sometimes masks the pain a bit too much (think he was talking in extreme cases tho) and they move around and stand on it too much and cause further damage. I have to be careful about how much bute mine has, as she did have an ulcer a couple of years ago, so ACP's just gives me something e extra to have in my medicine box in case of an attack. im not sure how useful it would actually be in a brusied sole, but one thing i would consider using it for is turning these ponies out again when they are sound enought to go out, so they dont tear around after 2 weeks or so box rest on the hard ground and do some more damage!
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judge
Junior Member
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Post by judge on Dec 30, 2009 18:54:59 GMT
its probably both. Pressure on the sole from the snow can trigger lami attack...which basically happened to one of our ponies this summer (from pads pushing on the sole). Treat as lami and give ACP which helps the push the blood away from the feet. Pony will recover soon but it would help to get shoes off and put pads on feet which you could easily do yourself with some cushiony material and silver tape. Happy to advise if you want.
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Post by sarah00000 on Dec 31, 2009 8:07:23 GMT
Thanks judge that is very kind.
My vet came yesterday and confirmed both ponies do have laminitis. Mini is well on the road to recovery, so can have her shoes back on in one week. Charm is still pottery, so about another 10 days or so for her.....
Vet was happy with their weight and my feed /management, so just said to carry on as I am.
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Post by pencaedu on Dec 31, 2009 9:56:24 GMT
My vets said it was laminitis too!!!!! And that was after X-rays. Ours had banging pulses, but we have since proved that it is bruised soles, not lami - shame about the big vet bill for them to be wrong!!!
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Post by roseview on Jan 19, 2010 18:22:26 GMT
My pony has recently gone down with laminitis caused by standing out in the frozen snow/ice!! She was turned away for the winter and we couldn't get her back when the snow came as the roads were so bad. She's never had it before. Farrier couldn't see any signs but have now had vet who says it is laminitis and that lami caused by freezing is not identifiable the same as that caused by the 'normal' laminitis. Fingers crossed she pulls through okay. She is on bute and ACP.
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Post by sageandonion on Jan 19, 2010 20:13:21 GMT
roseview, obviously I don't know your vet or farrier but when it comes to the feet and particularly laminitis, I would listen to my farrier every time.
Fingers crossed for your pony, please keep us informed.
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Post by roseview on Jan 19, 2010 21:03:21 GMT
Will keep you posted. My gut feeling is laminitis due to the way she is moving. However, provided she comes right, I don't really care exactly what it is!! Farrier seemed to think it was the fact that the frog, bulb of heel etc was frozen by the cold snow/ice which has hardened and damaged them. I guess treatment wise there isn't a lot of options anyway.
Vet wanted to go for x-rays right away but when I raised the cost issue she did relent and say that we could see how the mare is in 10 days, then go for x rays if needed. I won't skimp on cost for my animals when it is warranted but am not keen to spend over £120 when it is not clearly indicated as being required at this stage. Add to that the cost of the remedial farrier who they want there to look at xrays and treat if needed.
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Post by sarah00000 on Jan 20, 2010 10:28:00 GMT
roseview - hope your mare is OK soon.
My ponies both now on the mend. One was laminitis - caused by the concussion - frozen ground.
One was badly concussed soles. Farrier sorted out both problems. Now have pads on and are much more comfortable.
xx
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Post by welshbyname on Jan 20, 2010 16:30:19 GMT
Hope everyones ponies are on the mend. As lovepink knows I have been following this thread too as my little mare also came down with lami in the snow and ice. Have been caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, as now she's in 24/7 she started having resp problems. So been steaming her hay with D& H breathe easy too! She seems a little better now, and has been on Laminshield sachets and danilon for the last 3 days, and has even started being cheeky again. Does anyone have any ideas for stopping her getting bored, as all the licks etc are full of sugar. She has a ball which I put herbs and also a sprinkle of high fibre nuts in, but apart from that anyone got any ideas? Sorry, i didn't mean to hijack the thread!
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Post by sarah00000 on Jan 20, 2010 16:44:49 GMT
welshbyname - I have given you a "get well soon" Karma xx
Those laminshield sachets sound good, I saw then on the internet the other day.
I dont think there is that much you can do to stop them getting stroppy and bored, but just take is as a good sign that things are on the mend.
Once mine started getting stroppy - I very gradually reduced the bute.
Mini went on the lunge today and was 100% sound! Charm still about 95%, but tons better.
Hope you mare recovers quickly too xx
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Post by roseview on Jan 20, 2010 16:48:03 GMT
Welshbyname, looks as though we are both in the same boat then!!
I had thought about tying up a turnip (swede to non-Cornish readers) to keep her occupied. That used to work for my old girl.
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Post by welshbyname on Jan 20, 2010 16:57:59 GMT
Cheers, My first Karma will go straight to Tocs when I go do last checks tonight. The laminshield sachets seem to have made a difference, they're £1.00 per sachet at my feed shop, and i've also ordered the lick, so when this comes I suppose that may help with the boredom for a couple of hours a day. I know it sounds naive but I always thought winter was 'safe' her her. I do everything I can from March/April onwards to stop her gettin lami through the summer, typical isn't it! Healing thoughts to everyone's poorly ponies, and glad yours seem through the worst lovepink. and hope yours starts to perk up roseview.
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