Cross breeds

[Milliesmum]

That's your choice phillipa, but I still believe a lot of pedigree dogs are bred purely as a money spinner, and whilst you are obviously a responsible breeder there are many out there who are not, whether they are selling pedigree or the so called 'designer' types.

I would also say, whilst not being very familiar with your breed in particular, I would say a 'ring standard' dog is not necessarily a healthy dog, for example the breeds which have the very squashed muzzles - bred to exaggerate a feature highlighted in a breed standard, to win shows, but not with the health of the dog in mind. The same can be said for the exaggerated 'dished' heads on the welsh section 'a' - yes it's in the breed standard but in its extreme it causes health problems. Perhaps it's down to both horse and dog judges to penalise for these extreme traits.

[suzee]

Phillipa agree with what you say,most breeders of KC registered stock do breed to the standard,and often make use of the KC health schemes some of which have been in place for many years.So what are the breeders of designer crossbreeds trying to achieve other than
a lucrative product which they then say is healthier because it is a mix of 2 breeds.

[Philippa]

I have 2 extreme breeds and one not so. Boston terriers & pugs - both squished faces. Both have issues however you may think that the breathing is the main one. Actually it isn't, in the bostons juvenile cataract is the main issue, ours are all tested clear and we only use studs which are clear. Pugs get HV, which is twisting of the spine. Our third breed, miniature pinschers who are generally quite a healthy breed are prone to luxating patella. There are many back street breeders who do not test their dogs for health issues and yes, I agree that a lot of people breed to make money - at the Pug Club show only last Sunday did I hear a very well known breeder/show person say that they would have to hurry up and have a litter to pay for their showing for this year.
I find this appaling from reputable breeders but sadly it happens. I can however sleep at night knowing that we do not put our dogs through the process just to make money from them, they are pets foremost and showdogs secondly.

[kayjayem]

There are genuine breeders of both pure and crossbreeds and as long as it is done responsibly I don't see how it can be anyone's business to condemn anyone for what they do. Good luck to the serious breeders who are passionate about their breed, but if someone breeds first crosses with the purpose of being family pets and research the breeds and use healthy parents I don't see the problem, we live in a free country and don't need the "dog police" telling anyone what they can and can't do. Most people buying a first cross as a pet are buying a member of the family. Breeding heinz 57 x heinz 57 is obviously a no-goer as if you don't know the heritage you could get throw backs to anything - a litter of 6 could be completely different but a litter of first crosses are usually uniform, having said that most people buying a first cross as a pet will have it spayed. There are so many pure bred dogs bred by pet owners who have paid a lot for a pure bred bit*h, irrespective of the quality, and think it would be nice to breed a litter and have a bit of fun and make some money, likewise puppy farms only breed pure breds. It would be interesting to start a poll to see how many people look on their dog as a member of the family or an improvement on their stock. It's a good job horse/pony owners aren't so precious about their breeding or there would be a shortage of good all rounders

[Philippa]

So, you call me precious because I am responsible about my dogs. You seem to miss the point that the backstreet, fun, hobby breeders are not interested in health screening and pedigree research, hence why there are more and more problems arise.

It is a subject that people will always have a difference of opinion on but when I say I cannot genuinely understand why someone would ruin a breed to have a mongrel litter I say it because I genuinely can't. It's not a case of 'dog police' it is a case of being responsible.
And maybe read my post about my dogs being pets foremost - but if I can help them to be quality, healthy, breed standard pets then like I say, I can sleep happily at night.

[kayjayem]

No philippa you missed my point! I didn't call you precious for being responsible about your dogs, in fact I didn't refer to you at all but if you choose to take it personally I can't help that. What I did say is that you(figuratively speaking) can't condemn people for breeding first crosses(from healthy parents obviously) if they are breeding for a purpose and are prepared to take responsibility for what they breed. If you are happy with what you breed and are improving your stock that is fine and you are doing what you want with your dogs, besides them being pets(I did see that by the way even though I was speaking in general not directly at you!) but not everyone wants to improve their stock they want a happy healthy family member and are not bothered about the show ring. If you want to breed your pure breds good luck to you I wish you well in the show ring but you can't condemn others who don't have your aim.

[suzee]

The" dog police" could become a reality at some stage in the future the latest report into dog breeding across the board has recomended that all breeders have their dogs microchipped and health tested before breeding any litter, purebred or otherwise, and that all pups are microchipped before sale.If it becomes law anyone breeding a litter will have to comply.

[kayjayem]

Well hurray to that one, let's hope it happens.

[suzee]

I really hope that something along these lines is brought in,it is already required by the KC for anyone joining their accredited breeder scheme,but it should hopefully make puppy farming much less profitable as all pups could be traced back to the breeder which cannot happen at present when the poor things are transported all over the UK to be sold.

[kayjayem]

IMO puppy farms are the ones which everyone should be venting their spleen at! Disgusting!!!!

[dazycutter]

Feb 5, 2010 21:09:40 GMT Philippa said:

So, you call me precious because I am responsible about my dogs. You seem to miss the point that the backstreet, fun, hobby breeders are not interested in health screening and pedigree research, hence why there are more and more problems arise.

sorry...what exactly do you mean by fun/hobby breeder....

I breed Irish setters and I only breed when I want another dog... therefore I am not what you may call a serious breeder..

however, I am part of the KC accredited breeders scheme and I health screen all my bit*hes and stud dogs and have a very real commitment to the imrpovemnet of the breed and not breeding from stock that has faults.

I love to show my dogs but most importantly I always try to improve the breed standard by choosing correct stud dogs and not breeding from bit*hes dont possess the correct qualties for that breed

I have also shown mine to a championship level including crufts but they are pets first and foremost...

I find that comment about hobby breeding a little harsh... as I would consider myself to be in that category as I dont breed year after year after year....

[Philippa]

You fall into the same category as me dazycutter, we also do not breed year after year, we also only breed for better stock and when we want another puppy (or however many are in the litter) so as someone who sounds like they are singing from the same hymn book you are quick to jump on my head.
The people I made reference to I class as back street breeders who are interested in making a quick buck, the ones who are not interested in the health issues that their chosen dogs may have. I would have thought from reading my posts you might have understood that.

[dazycutter]

sorry phillipa, I didnt mean to "jump on your head" ....sorry it came across that way.... I think the term "hobby breeders" was unclear.....

nice to know there are other decent breeders out there.. I totally agree that far too many people do it for the wrong reasons..

[princessstacie22]

We researched the bulldogge as we were very interested in buying one. We were willing to pay nearly 3000 pound for a decent dog but were very put off by the health risks with these dogs.

we researched even more and found the Dorset olde tyme bulldogge. Like the bulldogge but bred (cross bred really) to produce a bulldogge with hardley any health problems.

I think that whether you get pure breeds or cross breeds you are always in danger of getting health risks.
In my experience, none of the cross breeds i have had have had any health problems AT ALL.
where as some pure breed dogs still have the health risks with the VERY expensive price tag.
Can someone please explain to me why that is justifiable??

ETA Now tell me these dogs(bulldogges) are not money making machines, because if they werent then they would stop being bred. They can hardley breath, they have skin problems, joint problems, sensitive stomachs, cant be bred properly and can only be bred through AI as their backs arent strong enough, they cant swim.........Great life for a dog eh??

[Philippa]

No probs Dazycutter, thats the problem with written speech, can be read the wrong way. i apologise if I was harsh, the whole cross breed subject is something I feel strongly about.

Princessstacie22, I found an article about cross breeds and health issues last time I got into this conversation - I will try to find it again. It clearly shows that cross breeds are not healthier dogs and actually dependent on the cross they are in fact doubly unhealthy.
Makes very interesting reading and hopefully will also make those who think its ok to slap bang whallop breed to think twice.

[suzee]

Princessstacie22 i wonder where you got your information from regarding Bulldogs, they can have health problems but a lot of breeders have good healthy dogs,that have been health tested using the relevant schemes.In my experience and reading the local ad paper it is mostly the crossbreds that are commanding high prices far more than a KC registered pup

[dazycutter]

the trouble with Brachycephalic dogs especially breeds such as bulldogs, is that their head is too large to pass thru the birth canal and they need C sections to deliver...

according to the new KC rules, dogs should be fit for purpose...

If we go back hundreds of years, breeds we know now are nothing like they used to be. I chose setters as not only are they beautiful, elegant and great personalities,. but they have not really altered in hundreds of years and intrinsically they are free from confirmation faults. They are not bred to the extreme where the shorter the muzzle the better, or the longer the back the better.. (dachshunds)

Yes, we have problems such as hip dysplasia, PRA, CLAD etc, but most breeders now screen for this and the KC will not let you register a litter without it being CLAD free. Also most people are in the know about PRA and HDand insist on test mate free pups and hip scoring.

I can honestly say, I dont care if its pedigree or x bred, as long as its healthy and loved. Every dog has a right to be cared for and looked after whatever the breeding.

As long as people still buy from back street breeders, our lovely woofers will have hereditary defects and health issues...

[princessstacie22]

Feb 8, 2010 18:03:13 GMT Philippa said:

No probs Dazycutter, thats the problem with written speech, can be read the wrong way. i apologise if I was harsh, the whole cross breed subject is something I feel strongly about.

Princessstacie22, I found an article about cross breeds and health issues last time I got into this conversation - I will try to find it again. It clearly shows that cross breeds are not healthier dogs and actually dependent on the cross they are in fact doubly unhealthy.
Makes very interesting reading and hopefully will also make those who think its ok to slap bang whallop breed to think twice.

I am not by any means saying that cross breeds are healthier than real breeds, all i am saying is that in my experience i have had cross breed dogs and not had a problem, but owned full breeds and had loads.
Most breeds nowadays have been crossed bred and interbred and done all sorts to make them what they are so not all breeds are exactly bred properly.

[princessstacie22]

Feb 8, 2010 18:40:06 GMT suzee said:

Princessstacie22 i wonder where you got your information from regarding Bulldogs, they can have health problems but a lot of breeders have good healthy dogs,that have been health tested using the relevant schemes.In my experience and reading the local ad paper it is mostly the crossbreds that are commanding high prices far more than a KC registered pup

I got my info on bulldogges from a top southern breeder who i cannot name. I also researched the dog for a good few weeks and found this was the case with almost ALL bulldogges. if you look it up on google it says it on every bulldogge site.

As dazy says most breeds nowadays are nothing like they were hundreds of years ago, so are all these breeders actually breeding true to type???

Boston terriers were actually bulldogges crossed with terriers, the golden retriever was a cross between the greater newfoundland and the lesser newfoundland, bulldogges are crossed between mastiff and pug. Fair enough they are all KC registered now but when it comes down to it, they originally were cross breeds also.

[princessstacie22]

Jan 23, 2010 9:06:58 GMT Milliesmum said:

I think what Princessstacie was objecting to though was the fancy names - not the actual breeding of these crosses, more the daft names given to them! Wouldn't have mattered to me what the name was, I'd still have wanted the same dog!

By the way this was the point of the thread in case some people got lost!!!! ;D

[princessstacie22]

edigree Dogs Exposed was a BBC One investigative documentary, produced by Jemima Harrison, which looked into the health issues facing pedigree dogs in the United Kingdom.

The Kennel Club, the governing body of dogs in the UK that runs the prestigious dog conformation show Crufts, was criticized for allowing breed standards, judging standards and breeding practices that were said to compromise the health of purebred dogs.[1]

The programme generated much criticism of the Kennel Club. It also caused various sponsors and trade exhibitors including Pedigree, Hill's, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and UK's largest dog welfare charity Dogs Trust to withdraw their participation from Crufts and other Kennel Club events. The BBC withdrew its coverage of Crufts for 2009, and chose not to renew it for 2010.

[princessstacie22]

I am all for pure bred dogs and cross breed dogs but i find it hard to believe in either when people get on there high horse and say either/or are better. If a dog is fit and healthy surely that is all that matters. If 2 healthy dogs are bred, surely that is all that matters???

whatever you chose you will get poor health on both sides, so i think we all need to take that into account.

sorry for the overload but wanted to prove my point.

BTW i own a purebred!! He is an Olde thyme bulldogge that was originally cross bred to produce a healthier bulldogge. But is now registered as a KC breed.

[Philippa]

This is quite true Princess, the main backers pedigree pulled out. Not a bad thing but then thats another topic. The KC revised breed standards in certain breeds and enforced them just before Crufts last year - great - how can anyone change their breed standards in a matter of months?? It takes generations. But, I don't disagree that the KC should be taken to task for allowing grossly unhealthy dogs win classes, but then we are back to the same as we face with the ponies. Who is to blame?? The governing bodies or the judges??
I was aware you didn't mean every cross breed as neither did I.
And as far as the origional topic, I think you know my answer to it.

[princessstacie22]

Im glad we agree on that phillippa

[suzee]

Princessstacie22 your original question about the names given to mixed breed pups being ridiculous and giving people a misleading impression i think most people agree with,as you so rightly said they are crossbreeds.Can't blame the KC for everything though they have had health schemes for years and the documentary was very biased

[jasper1]

I have allways bred working jacks. We now no longer work our terriers, and am allways being asked for a jack pup, but lots of people dont realise what they are taking on with a with a dog that has come from a long line of working blood, and can soon come unstuck. I decided to x my bit*h, after asking lots of questions about Jackxpoodles they seemed like a great fun breed. Have allready had loads of requests for more puppies, but will not be having any untill I know what these turn out like, which cd take up to a couple of years. As you know philippa, anyone who breeds (unless they do it for a quick buck) very soon learns that you dont do it for profit. Vets checks, stud fees, jabs, chips, etc soon adds up. My pups went to friends for cost, I see them a lot, and get great pleasure from it, and thats why we have our animals.

[princessstacie22]

scientific evidence cannot be biased suzee. sorry but if it was biased, why did nearly ALL of the sponsors pull out??
Im not blaming the KC for everything, but it has encouraged unhealthy breeding and crufts has too.
It all comes down to the good old rossette again, people will do anything to get one but then i suppose thats a different story all together.

The lady i was speaking to about getting a bulldogge has just had two litters of pups. One litter of 3 the other of 6. she will sell each pup for £3000 because of there fantastic breeding lines and 'true to type' conformation. As i am friends with her son she told me they still have health problems but it comes with the breed. so this year she has made £30,000. Nice little hobbie dont you think?

[suzee]

Princessstacie22 scientific evidence is not biased but the presentation of it was.As i have said before the KC have had health schemes in place to test or evaluate hereditary disease
for years,dedicated breeders do use the schemes relevant to their breed,but if you don't use them then you have a greater profit margin!!!The people that pulled out of Crufts did so because they wanted to be seen to back the RSPCA.In the documentary you refer to apart from the Cavalier whose sire was owned by a well known breeder the other breeds featured did not give their origins so i assume they were not KC registered.
Crufts is not just about judgeing and has not been for many years.The KC have all breeds present for the public to see and find out all they need to know,there is a vast array of information if people want or need it.If anyone is thinking of getting a KC registered pup then i suggest they try if possible to go to an
Accredited breeder who will have done their utmost according to the KC criteria to have bred a typical healthy good natured pup,but nothing is perfect in breeding any livestock but at least they would have done their best As you say the money earned from the Bulldog pups is vast ,but if people were more genned up
or particular they would not hand over their hard earned cash so easily.The Bulldog pups i have seen advertised range from£1000-
£1800

[dazycutter]

that documentary was totally biased..... They did not take a representative sample and if you know anything about statistics you would see how biased it was...

I still dont care what breed or cross anyone chooses to have (and the word CHOICE is whats important)

as long as its healthy and loved.. then lets all be happy that dogs give us such pleasure and enrichment in our lives... :-)

[jasper1]

(and the word CHOICE is whats important), as long as its healthy and loved. Thats so true dazycutter.