The Importance of health testing

[tanya1989]

Been reading about and it seems that many people (not necessarily here but on many sites) are failing having their dogs health tested before breeding. I think a lot of it is out of lack of knowledge about breeding, there breed or health tests available that should be made compulsory.

Before breeding from a dog or bit*h, it is advised that breeders should investigate whether there are any possible inherited conditions that may affect the breed. Breeders can do this by discussing the matter with the breeder of their dog, the relevant breed club or clubs, the Kennel Club Health & Breeders Services Department or, possibly, their veterinary surgeon. There are several dog health schemes currently in operation to assist in the prevention or control of some diseases (including DNA tests), and where they exist, the Kennel Club strongly recommends that both sire and dam are tested.

I know a lot of people that breed crossbreeds here, so I know I will stepping on a lot of toes with this post, but if you insist on breeding them please, please get them ALL the required health tests for all breeds the dog contains. As breeders we are responsible for ALL the puppies throughout their lives. we brought them into the worl, we are responsible until they leave the world. this includes whether the dog needs rehoming, we are the ones who have to take the dog back until a new home can be found. We are at fault if the puppy turns out to have hereditary illnesses. I think too many people do not realise this.

As much as we love our pets and think they are gorgeous and healthy, it does not mean they should be bred from. Having one litter does not improve the dog and in most cases ruins the dog- dogs and bit*hes included. If you really love your dog please do not breed from them unless they have something to offer the breed, ie have many awards in their field, either a show dog or a worker.

I am not speaking to patronize anybody, but I am genuinely concerned with the amount of dogs going into rescue. Breeding a dog, especially a crossbreed is preventing one from being rescued. I have nothing against crossbreeds, I have one, but I will not go to a breeder for a cross, especially when there are so many in rescue facing being PTS. I cannot see the point.

Here is a list of the different types of breeders. I have taken this from other websites so you can see this is not just my opinion, but a wide spread opinion:

Back yard breeder:
1. Motive for breeding: "fun", "good for kids", "to make money". Does not screen buyers and seldom refuses to sell, even if buyer is unsuitable.
2. Breeds the family pet to any convenient pet of the same breed just to have purebred pups. Has no understanding or concern with genetics, pedigree bloodlines, or breed improvement.
3. Though the pets (sire/dam of pups) may be well loved, they were not tested for hip dysplasia or for other genetic problems such as cardiomyopathy and hypothyroidism.
4. Offers no health guarantee beyond proof of shots, if that. Unqualified to give help if problems develop.
5. Seller has little knowledge of breed history, the national breed club or of the KC breed standard. May claim this does not matter for "just pets".
6. Pups raised in makeshift accommodations, sometimes unsanitary, indicating lack of long-term investment in breeding and lack of true care for the puppies well-being.
7. Even when selling "just pets", may produce KC papers or "championship pedigrees" as proof of quality. Yet seller does not increase his own knowledge through participation in national, regional, or local breed clubs. Is not involved in showing their dogs to "prove" quality.
8. May be unwilling to show a buyer the entire litter or to introduce the dam of the litter. Cannot or will not compare/critique pups or pup’s ancestors.
9. Prices are at the low end of local range, since must move pups quickly. Advertises in the local newspaper classifieds.
10. No concern for the future of individual pups or the breed as a whole. Does not use endorsements option or ask for spay/neuter contract to guard against the breeding of sub-standard pups. If you cannot keep pup, tells you to take it to a dog pound or to sell it.

A Reputable Breeder:
1. Dedication to producing quality dogs is serious avocation. Has so much invested in dogs that he struggles to break even, not make a profit. Will sell pups only to approved buyers
2. Can explain how planned breedings are used to emphasize or minimize specific qualities through linebreeding, outcrossing, or more rarely, inbreeding.
3. Does not breed dogs younger than age 2. Has breeding stock x-rayed to check for hip dysplasia, echo/doppler run for SAS, holtered within the last year for boxer cardiomyopathy (also known as ARVC) and thyroid screened. Can produce certification to prove claims. Does not breed a first time litter after dam has turned 3 1/2 yrs
4. Written contractural commitment to replace a dog with genetic faults or to help owner deal with problem.
5. Loves the breed and can talk at length about its background, uses, and ideal type.
6. Has an investment in dog equipment and the puppies environment is sanitary and loving.
7. Belongs to national, regional, and/or local dog clubs, indicating a love for the sport of purebred dogs. Shows their dogs as an objective test of how his stock measures up.
8. Shows litter and dam in a sanitary environment. Helps buyer evaluate and choose a pup. Explains criteria for "show prospects" versus "pet picks".
9. Prices will be at the high end of local range. Price will not reflect all that is invested in the pups. A reputable breeder never profits from the sale of puppies. Does not advertise in the newspaper. Has an established waiting list for the pups.
10. After purchase, will help you with grooming or training problems. Will take back a pup you cannot keep rather than see it disposed of inappropriately. Sells pets with spay/neuter agreement and with pedigree endorsements.

You have to fill all the criteria to be a reputable breeder, not just one or two.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this but I feel so strongly that people need educating to stop people from buying from BYB and adopt from rescues or buy from a reputable breeder



A lot of people think incredibly carefully about breeding their horses, spend weeks and months picking out a stallion to complement their mare, can we please think the same of our dogs

[suzee]

tanya1989 agree 100%,just wish testing was a mandatory requirement.The good breeders
who health test don't get the recognition they deserve.Tests can be expensive and it is devastating if a dog fails.Those that don't or won't test have no idea if they are producing
problem pups until it is too late.Testing does not guarantee health but it proves a breeder is trying their best for their breed.

[m@m]

i agree with a lot you are saying and when i sell puppies i have kept in touch with the new owners and they send pictures and have written letters telling us how the pup is coming on, but i know alot of people who wouldnt take on a rescue because you dont know the full history of the dog, you didnt know the parents, and people with children like to meet the parents to c there temps, and there soundness of health, and tbh alot of people cant afford to splash out 7-8 hundred pounds on a specific breed and some people like heinz type dogs , iv got jack russels and yea they are not expensive about 180, but they are healthy they have been wormed, they have been checked over by a vet, and if you work out the cost of rearing them, im not making any money and i certainly wouldnt sell to whoever happened to ring, and just because another breed is expensive doesnt mean its going to any better of a home than a cheaper dog, and the majority of jack russels are not kc registered because they were bred as certain type of dog rather than a breed,and these type of dogs tend to have very little health issues than kc type ones which have been inbred over the years, and now have a list of health screening in place to get rid of problems they started in the first place, i too think people that choose to breed should be regulated but in reality it would be a near impossible task to inforce, i think its brilliant if you can rehome a rescue but sometimes for some people its not something they want to do and that should be respected also

[dazycutter]

Mar 16, 2010 13:55:59 GMT tanya1989 said:

Having one litter does not improve the dog and in most cases ruins the dog- dogs and bit*hes included. If you really love your dog please do not breed from them unless they have something to offer the breed, ie have many awards in their field, either a show dog or a worker.

Not sure if I agree with you on this point.. breeding from dogs does not "ruin" them if done correctly and at the right age.

Also just becasue they havent won numerous ribbons in champ shows does not mean they are not a good example of the breed. As you should know, dog showing is very facey and not always the best examples and true to type/breed standard get the ribbons.

I do agree with a lot of what else you said though...

out of interest, do you breed, and if so what breed.. :-)

[m@m]

just to add i see you breed leonberger's, my friend bought one at silly money, parents had won lots of things, and had brilliant health test marks for hips etc, and she's had nothing but trouble with it, has numerous health problems, would never pass a medical, and is now useless to her as a stud dog, so dont think just because parents are check and puppies seen by vet, is by any means a guarantee to a healthy dog, this is not a dig at yourself or your own dogs, just my opinion

[suzee]

m@m your post illustrates what i said in my post,testing does not guarantee health but it proves a breeder is trying their best.Some inherited conditions unfortunately will occur from tested parents,but by testing parents and as many siblings as possible the risk of occurance is reduced,so until the veterinary profession improves some of the tests it's the best breeders have got to use.

[m@m]

sorry suzee, got waylaid in what i was saying and didnt realise id repeated you, i agree testing is the best way at present to try and cut down on inherited defets, think im more insenced that the original post targets some of the cheaper scaled dogs which i think is unfair to people that like them, and whenever i buy a dog whichever breed it may be,and however expensive, i always look to c the parents and there general health, and i think if you'v got any common sense you make an informed decision if that puppy is right for you, if not you go somewhere else. and if people want to breed a litter from there loved pet that is in good health and there sure they can sell them puppies to people maybe to people they either know or friends of friends that are keen to have a family pet, then thats there decision, and there choice, and if costs such as vet assistance is needed then that is the responsibility that comes with it, hope this post makes sense

[tanya1989]

Mar 16, 2010 19:51:30 GMT m@m said:

just to add i see you breed leonberger's, my friend bought one at silly money, parents had won lots of things, and had brilliant health test marks for hips etc, and she's had nothing but trouble with it, has numerous health problems, would never pass a medical, and is now useless to her as a stud dog, so dont think just because parents are check and puppies seen by vet, is by any means a guarantee to a healthy dog, this is not a dig at yourself or your own dogs, just my opinion

but what was wrong with it? was it hereditary?

[alys]

I went to crufts last week and saw my dog of choice, the Dobermann. What a dreadful representation of the breed were there,they ,I am sure, were in the main,health checked, but they were shocking. Weedy,small with snipey noses. My dog is an import and is what a Dobe should look like. I think showing dogs does definitely not improve the breed,also look at the winner of the GSDs,its back end looked like a frog.It will be used as a stud dog,and I am sure has good X-Rays etc. I feel that people need to look and see the quality and confirmation and not to overly rely on health tests(obviously this is more confirmation rather than things like epilepsy or blood disorders) A good dog looks good, like a good horse,they ooze quality. Have all the years of X-Raying made any significant improvement to Hip scores?
The problem with dog breeding over horse breeding is that dogs have a lot more progeny to affect the gene pool and you need far less facilities. Have as many health checks as possible,but use your gut instinct when buying a puppy,a good one looks right as do its parents. If you dont love it dont buy it!

[m@m]

it had hip dysplasia and arthritis in its back legs, which required surgery and pins

[tanya1989]

Thats really shocking actually. Do you know what its parents scores were out of interest

[m@m]

i dont, i know my friend searched for a long time to get the right one which came from the best lines, so she wouldnt of gone for one with bad marks and the parents came from prolific winning lines and were champions themselves, i dont know the prefix, but she paid 1500 for it as looked to be a top class dog later on, but i suppose its just bad luck, the breeders offered to take it back and provide another but by this time she'd had him 18 months and was attatched, she was insured so that helped with some of the vet costs, and think the breeders gave her some money back, but its made her wary now, she uses completely different lines now for her bit*hes

[dazycutter]

I think that as responsible breeders and I would class myself as one, we try and do whats best, i.e. have the required health checks and try and breed better dogs and improve the breed. Thats all we can do. All dogs will have something or other wrong with them as do humans.. lets face it some humans definately should not breed but they still do :-)

As long as they are loved and well cared for with the correct veterinary intervention thats all we can hope for. But yes, there are dreadful breeders out there, I know a few.... all we can do is breed the best we can...

[tanya1989]

£1500 is a huge amount for a Leo, The top bred puppies in the country are only sold for a £1000.
Does she still have bit*hes? Its a very small world. I suspect I know the breeder you are talking about. If so they churn them out litter after litter. In fact a dog bred by them recently went for a judge, unheard of in Leos until now

[m@m]

she's got bit*hes still, and sells hers for 1200, the dog she had the problems with has the most fantastic temp though, excellent with kids, horses cows, cats completely unflappable and real softy

[tanya1989]

They are lovely, I wouldn't be without them.