show ponies and intermediates!?!

[hackit]

At 16 we used to do Hunter Pony, WHP and Riding Horses with our 153cm and Small Hunter and Riding Horses with our 158cm. There wass never any problem and we gained much from competing in these classes against different people. We also grew up fast having to produce them to give as ggod a ride as the professionals animals. Give everyone a chance and don't be so exclusive. Judges will judge on type and you have to find out who likes your animal in whatever class. Don't begrudge the odd [and they usually are!] 148cm standing above a bigger animal as other judges will look at the opposite end of the height range. If you've got a ISRT do hacks! The classes are so small and you'll take home more rosettes to keep mummy and daddy happy and pin on your walls. Gradually you'll go past the Britsih show Horse Junior ribbons, grow up and beat the big names! Satisfaction.... now that's a great name for a Hack!

[INTLOVEY]

I have to say i don't agree with it being the odd 14.2. This year the winner was a 14.2 (don't get me wrong i don't begrudge it it's win) 3rd was a 14.2 with I believe another 3 (all talk/belboy/simply the best) all qualified as well. The other year it was much the same and a few years ago the first 2 were 14.2's. However I don't think it should come down to height although this maybe the only way to change things. In my opinion it should be type not height, but many judges seem to be going for a 14.2 type in an intermediate class surely there should be a difference.
Like you say int do hacks, 14.2's can't. I thought int were the transisssion hence a horse compared to a 14.2 but slightly to pony for a hack. Not many intermediates are top hacks as they is a difference and quite rightly so, so why are 14.2's winning the intermediate classes?
What makes me laugh is when people say such an such is my favourite 14.2 and also my favourite intermediate seriouslly is there no better pony out there than it, how can it be the perfect type for both?? (and yes i do understand personnal opinion)
However to up the height (although i wldnt complain!) would put some ponies out of the class which are actually a better int than 14.2?
I think it is a no win situation just have to get on with the season and enjoy it, take the ruff with the smooth and find the right judges.

[tustus]

Intermediates were designed to be a stepping stone between ponies and horses, but several posters here seem to want to give up showing when they get to horses because it's not famillar to them. If this is what is happening with intermediate classes they're obviously not doing their job for some (or most?).

I've enjoyed competing in intermediate classes, but do them alongside BSHC&RHA (now show horse soc) classes with success. Perhaps it was different for me, not being a 'face' in the pony world, therefore the transition was easier, but I enjoy the grown up feeling of senior classes and the greater scope you get to compete in a wider variety of classes.

What can the societies do to encourage younger riders in to adult classes if even those who are showing hack types as ISRTs don't feel comfortable competing the same horse in hack classes?

[hackety]

tustus, I think you are right in what you are saying ........... although I thoroughly enjoyed my pony days and had great success, I always appreciated the fact that at a certain age I would move into the horse classes. When I was a couple of years off finishing with the BSPS I joined the BSHC & RHA (BSHA) so that I could still enjoy the carefree pony job but also get my face and presence in with the big boys.

To me, it is a natural progression and I would have thought that more young people would have the ambition and drive to want to better themselves as horsemen/women. Like with other equestrian disciplines, you progress through the ranks earning your stripes, growing your knowledge and experience and then you either continue into big league or other things in life become a bigger priority and you finish.

The BSPS produces some fabulous talent that is being wasted because they are clinging to the apron strings. Yes, they will be a little fish in a big pond for a while but that promotes dedication and determination ........... see horse classes as a challenge not a closed door.

[topworker]

I have to agree with show pony fan and peter pan. Not everyone wants to or can afford to move into the producer / proffesional stage and might want to keep a super pony for intermediate classes. If there is enough support for the older classes then why not? Adults of all ages ride in the Heritage Classes, both inside and outside the BSPS.
Regarding the 14-2 and intermeditate discussion, I think the entry fees have to be considered, if you can enter two classes it benefits the horse and rider and also the show.
Personally I think the competitors should decide which class they wish to compete in at the begining of the season and stick to it. Also I agree that the intermediates should be asked to provide a more demanding show.

[woof woof]

Tustus and Hackety, you echo my sentiments exactly. I'm reminded of the old school 14-18 discos... which were full of 12-16 year olds if that old because the older ones wouldnt be seen dead there - soon as they were old enough or could get away with it they were off to join the grown ups.

Here its the opposite of that - clinging to what they know and where theyve been or are successful and would rather be "top dog" within a pony/junior environment than "small fry", unknown and unproven in the adult horse world. There are plenty who will buy a proven top hack or sm hunter specifically to compete only in intermediates, proving my point.

Back to the subject of the 14.2hh's people have always, going again back to the juvenile rider class days, done both classes. Then, the top three in the 14.2hh class were excluded from the JR class so those with poorer placings pulled on a pair of top boots and tried their luck in the JR class next. I think some CAN do both though why they would want to is another matter - it dilutes their worth in my opinion, leaving them always open to uncertainty because theyre seen as an "inbetweenie" so better to choose your class and stick to it.

I can think of at least one 14.2hh thats successfully moved up a level so it can be done. I think it was Hector of Sinton (or name on those lines) who was 14.2hh pony of the year in his rider's last year, conveniently then measured out and next year was back at Wembley this time as small hack of the year. Serendignette - there's another example of a 14.2hh wembley winner then a top three wembley hack the next. Regardless of opinion on how right that is both of those riders were just 17 and at the top in their first "horsey" year and it could be said they beat the big boys with PONIES too!

[tustus]

topworker said:

I have to agree with show pony fan and peter pan. Not everyone wants to or can afford to move into the producer / proffesional stage and might want to keep a super pony for intermediate classes.

topworker I have no problem at all with someone who wants to keep a top pony to contest intermediates, the classes are there to be contested.

There are professionals in ponies and horses, and I fail to see the difference in cost when many of the horses able to compete in each are the same animals (hacks/small hunters/small riding horses).

I'm neither a professional or professionally produced, but have had as much success in horses than I did in ponies. Yes it was daunting to start with, competing with the 'big boys', but within a year I'd settled in and loved competing in the same ring as (and sometimes beating) some horsemen and women I very much respect.

It's a great world here in horses, you should give it a good shot before dismissing it.

[showponyfan]

This debate is going round in circles can anyone explain to me not in a nasty or condisending way, WHY you have a problem with the BSPS having a show class for adults. LOTS of riders do not want to go up as you lot say into the horse world surley it is evryones own choice what they want to do why do you insist on telling other people what to do, and how to spend their money just because you do it, the hack and riding horse classes do not suit a lot of people that doesnt make them a failure not everyone wants to make a career out of it family showing within the BSPS has become a way of life for many people, and in this day and age when you can ride a section a at the age of 70 if for a young adult to compete on a 15-2 horse. Many of my friends have tried the hack classes they were not famous pony riders they did well but not a name as you put it they did not enjoy the hacks one girl qualified HOYS and was placed but she hated it in her opinion there was no fun or pleasure and she dreaded weekends, so what right have you got to say she is wrong and you are right this lovely girl did not compete this year after22 years showing.

[wetandmuddy]

The BSPS deserve a pat on the back. We have so much fun and enjoy the championship shows so much that we simply do not want to leave. The atmosphere at these events is wonderful and to be honest having competed also at BSHA shows and championships there is no comparison. I have found the classes boring and the finals OK but not a patch on the pony equivalents. Yes there are always complaints of iffy judging with ponies, but wait till you get to the horse world!

[showponyfan]

Yes wet and muddy i agree like i said i do not wish to stop anybody doing what they enjoy doing but some people are constantly poking fun at people who do not want to join them in the "horse world" i want to know why people think it is wrong for the BSPS to have a show class for young adults i cannot get my head round it what is wrong with it. The riders would not leave the BSPS if their was a class for them and i think that is the problem we are being forced to do something we dont want to but it will stop because people will not be bullied into it anymore. The hacks have no marks system a diffrent judge rides them every week the classes take forever do i need to go on if people enjoy that great i wish them well but it is not for everyone.

[peterpan]

Here here. I did hacks quite successfully last year but really didnt take to it. This year i decided i wasnt fussed about doing them but afte rnext season when i finish my stint at the bsps I don't know what i shall do.

I really love the bsps championship shows, the atmosphere is great, quite a few classes to do, evening performances, watching the smaller kids and ponies etc etc for me at the BSHC&RHA although i do enjoy it there is not half as many classes to do and the atmosphere is very different. Don't get me wrong i know all judging can be iffy but in the int classes i do feel if i had the best pony in the world i wld win quite a bit and be in with a shot, whilst with hacks i do still feel that even if i had the best pony i wld struggle to win the major titles. Maybe i am bias as i have done quite well in my years at the BSPS but it will be a very sad day for me next year when i ride in my last int class.

It is nothing to do with not wanting to be a small fish! I have spent many years as a small fish in classes but for the money i have to pay to do this 'hobby' I want a fair amount of fun and enjoyment out of it, something hack classes struggle to do for me weighed up against the cost. As you say many people dont want to move away from int into hacks, maybe the bshc&rha should look into that look into why people dont want to do the classes and look at a way of encouraging people into the society, maybe a new class? or a new final? When i have done hack classes the numbers are often small, hurrah i here people cry but the sense of the achievement is actually far less then when i win a int class of 30 quality animals.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the bsps having an adult class to be honest the classes speak for themselves, they are the biggest and most quality classes around!
At least i will have the m&ms to keep me occupied! although nothing beats a show pony! ;-)

Back to the subject of the 14.2hh's people have always, going again back to the juvenile rider class days, done both classes. Then, the top three in the 14.2hh class were excluded from the JR class so those with poorer placings pulled on a pair of top boots and tried their luck in the JR class next.
Woof Woof can i just say you have hit something spot on here! I think this is what the sp/int should do. I don't agree with ponies going into the 14.2's winning then coming out an doing the int class and winning the above rule should be introuduced to stop this happening. Spot on in my opinion.

[showponyfan]

Peterpan please send a letter to the BSPS and your area chairman explaining your feelings i thimk you last post was exellent, i know that if enough people campain for these classes they will listen area chaiman have a lot to do with rules being changed as it is their voice that counts at some of the meetings they were the ones who stopped the 14-2 rule being changed and it is coming up for debate again so act now.

[tustus]

peterpan said:

maybe the bshc&rha should look into that look into why people dont want to do the classes and look at a way of encouraging people into the society, maybe a new class? or a new final? When i have done hack classes the numbers are often small, hurrah i here people cry but the sense of the achievement is actually far less then when i win a int class of 30 quality animals.

Definately the BSHC&RHA should look at why people aren't moving up into horse classes and how they could improve. I love the BSPS champs, but I'm not even out of intermediates and feel I want to compete somewhere a little bit more 'grown up' now, rather than a holiday atmosphere - maybe that's not for everyone though.

Have you thought why the hack classes haven't got many in them? It could be because all of that type of horse is being ridden in intermedates only

I don't actually disagree with there being classes for adults who ride ponies or smaller horses with the BSPS, as long as it doesn't deplete the numbers of ponies in the show pony classes which I believe should be ponies for children. Many smaller m&m breeds, in contrast, were initially bred for farmers to ride, so are 'adult's ponies'.

I suppose I just can't see that 'intermediates' are doing the thing that they were initially designed to do. Would more people be inclined to move in to the adult societies (and change them from within into something more acceptable to them) if intermediates were run by the BSHC&RHA or SH (GB)?

[peterpan]

That raises an interesting question about BSHC&RHA doing intermediate classes but i believe people still want to be involved in the bsps. The BSPS are making advances forward to keep memebers with the horse classes they are doing but there arent enough shows taking these on or making them prestigous enough. At the end of the day the BSPS have evolved over the years and I don't feel it is a childrens society anymore.
It's funny you feel the BSPS as a holiday atmosphere as to me it brings together the most quality or ponies and riders to compete for a very prestigous event. I feel i have competed at a higher level at a HOYS int qualifier than a lot of hack qualifiers!! but again just my opinion. I don't really feel the need to prove myself in the adult world i guess as for me this is just a hobby which i do for fun and enjoyment. Also I also find with the hacks there is actually less influence on what you the rider do as a lot comes down to how the ride judge gets on with your horse therefore i don't always feel like i have helped to win the class. More a stroke of luck that the pony went well and did as it was told!

Have you thought why the hack classes haven't got many in them? It could be because all of that type of horse is being ridden in intermedates only

To be honest in my opinion there are not a lot of hacks doing intermediate classes as this post points out the intermediate classes are often dominated by 14.2sp which obviously don't do hacks. To me hacks and int are still slightly different and although some int are horses a lot are large ponies which do not really stand up in hack classes. Much emphasis is also on the ride of a hack and many int ride more like ponies. There are a few that cross over at the moment (wilderness Carmen, Courtland Be Fair, Stanley Grange Puppeteer) but in the smaller height there are not to many. Maybe this goes back to the issue of type in the intermediate classes and maybe they should be more of a horse type which will stand up in hack classes?
I believe this is true especially as now HOYS have recognised this fact and put intermediates in the horse championship - should judges now be taking note of this? If it is a horse championship why are there ponies in it?

cor feel we have a nice well rounded debate going here!

[showponyfan]

Tustus i am not saying older riders want to stay on ponies forever I thought a 15-2 was a horse, the intermediate classes should not be for ponies that is why so many are against the 14-2s being in the small intermediate classes, therefore it should not make any diffrence to the pony classes all we want is a class for young adults to compete in within the BSPS like the Open Show Riding Type class it is perfect for the many that do not want to go into hacks or riding horses surley it is not too much to ask 1 class out of the many the BSPS have, the BSPS have come a long way f there was a time when there were only a handfull of classes within the BSPS each year seems to bring new classes the intermediate classes are the biggest classes at most shows so that tells you that people love them and the societies have to put on classes that people want if they want to be succsesfull. Peterpan is spot on when she says she would rather win a large intermediate class were she has ridden her own show than win a small hack class. the Hack and cob society have not got a right to expect the BSPS to send them a never ending supply of competitors if they want us they will have to offer something a lot better than they have got now.

[tustus]

That is one hell of a long sentence

Showponyfan, what could the BSHC&RHA do to make you reconsider contesting their classes? (as if there is something, maybe it's something that could be raised at their next agm)

[hackety]

I've just opened a new thread for this discussion as I think it is very valid and deserves a space all to itself!

[showponyfan]

Tustus i personally will never join BSHCS i have watched closely for 2 seasons chatted with friends who have ventured into these classes and no one enjoys them, the reasons vary from not having a marks system, never being judged fairly and a couple ofthe girls i speak to think some of the top riders look down their noses at them. Of course the top producers will say they win because they have the better animals that give a better ride but it is not always the case. At least at the BSPS you will get a lot of fair judges not so in the BSHCS. The fact is when you try to explain why people do not want to join no one listens they make excuses up to defend the critisism made against them so how can you move forward and the top producers always have a supply of new clients to please and at the end of the day it is all about money. People know its a waste of time if your home produced so the majority of the BSPS riders move into something else.

[Molly]

showponyfan said:

Tustus i personally will never join BSHCS i have watched closely for 2 seasons chatted with friends who have ventured into these classes and no one enjoys them, the reasons vary from not having a marks system, never being judged fairly and a couple ofthe girls i speak to think some of the top riders look down their noses at them. Of course the top producers will say they win because they have the better animals that give a better ride but it is not always the case. At least at the BSPS you will get a lot of fair judges not so in the BSHCS. The fact is when you try to explain why people do not want to join no one listens they make excuses up to defend the critisism made against them so how can you move forward and the top producers always have a supply of new clients to please and at the end of the day it is all about money. People know its a waste of time if your home produced so the majority of the BSPS riders move into something else.

I agree a little with you there.

But i dont agree with you saying "people know its a waste of time if you are home produced," I am home produced and its not a waste of time. I go to every show, ride to the best i can, try and get the horse to do a foot perfect show..just basically give the best i can. At the end of the day showing is fun for me. I dont make money out of it, all i get out of it is enjoyment.

At the end of the day,you win some you lose some.

[showponyfan]

Molly you have said yourself that it is facey so any class that is judged unfairly is a complete waste of time and money.

[tustus]

I'm home produced too. I've found just as many people 'looked down their noses' at me at BSPS as in BSH&C classes, athough I get cut up and 'shaddowed' less often in horse classes. I like the marks system with BSPS, and would like to see it introduced at BSH&C, it's something that could happen in the future, and at HOYS there is a marks system but the marks aren't available to the competitors (seems to defeat the point!)

I know lots of young people who enjoy the BSH&C, hopefully as more of them join the society can evolve.

[showponyfan]

Tustus can you hand on heart say that you are judged fairly most of the time in the hack classes.

[hackety]

If I am judging you are!
What I do think is that it is a very different kettle of fish producing a horse than a pony. It is obvious in way of going and ride, but there are subtle differences in presentation and ring craft.

I judge pony and horse classes and enjoy both tremendously. I have no problem with the marking system for BSPS and enjoy using a really good range. However, I do feel that it would be a shame to introduce it into horses as I don't think it inspires sponteneity in showmanship.

[Molly]

showponyfan said:

Molly you have said yourself that it is facey so any class that is judged unfairly is a complete waste of time and money.

I said it can be unfair and facey sometimes..Not all the time

[showponiesfan]

Hackerty you have just proved my point, tustus asked earlier what could the BSHC could do to encourage the riders that do not want to leave the BSPS, I said a marks system and fair judging would help you have just told me that you judge fairly and the horse system is better in your opinion which is why i wont join and am desperate to stay with the BSPS You are not prepared to change same old click year in year out and this is why you are not getting the young riders coming through they are sick and tired of it. Out of intrest what age are you as you are down as a junior member

[Junior Member]

Junior Member only means the amount of postings!

[showponyfan]

Thankyou for explaining that i thought it meant the member was under 18

[hackety]

Shouldn't this now be going onto the other thread?

I think the junior member thing is to do with the number of posts that you have made.

I am 34 and started in hacks and riding horses at 17 (was still doing SHP and WHP too) and have built up an enormous amount of friends within the association. In the beginning, I saw it as a challenge to better myself. Any society has an element in the judging panels that leaves competitors with a bad taste but the Hack & Cob are certainly no worse than any other. They do also deal with complaints from competitors.

So, unless people are brave enough to get in there and help make things better from the inside then it will always remain that the few who make the move and put the effort in will reap the rewards.

I do accept that some people do not want to travel this route, but they should then accept that if the horse societies are not for them that it puts an end to their showing at top level unless they do M & M's.

[tustus]

showponyfan said:

Tustus can you hand on heart say that you are judged fairly most of the time in the hack classes.

Yes, most of the time. Most of the judges of each society are the same - there are just as many bent one in pony showing as horse showing I've found.