CHAPS has outdone itself this time

[coloured]

I saw something that confused me today at Windsor. So I asked around and this appears to be the situation.

On Sunday evening, Windsor Horse Show advised entrants into the coloured classes that there was a judge change to the coloured classes - J Hart was now doing conformation, not ride, and James Van Pragh was coming in to do the ride. C Hamilton who was originally doing conformation was not mentioned.

So - the two plaited classes were judged with the judges that had been advised on Sunday evening.

We get to the two native/cob/traditional classes, and suddenly there is an unannoucned judge change - and J Hart disappears and C Hamilton arrives.

Is there no rule that states the same two judges must judge EVERY class - and not change for the last two?

Interestingly, this is a judge who has stated that she does not like the idea of proffessional riders doing CHAPS classes, hence several pro horses which have won many classes this year were waaaaay down the line.

I don't want to take anything away from the worthy winners of the class. However, the whole thing stinks. How would hunter competitors react if two people judged the LW and MW classes, then changed, for no apparent reason, for the HW class?

This is totally not acceptable. It should not make any difference that C Hamilton is a leading light in CHAPS - but obviously being in charge means that you can change the rules as you go along.

What a farce.

[Linzy D ickinson]

I am the Judges' Co-ordinator for CHAPS. If you are a CHAPS member and have any queries about this matter please feel free to give me a call.

Without discussing this case in public, I would remind everyone that judges are human beings and occasionally have injuires, get ill, suffer bereavements or are unable to fulfil their judging commitments for a variety of reasons. In these circumstances competitors and show organisers should be grateful that
a) other judges are prepared to step in at short notice; and b) that judges who could quite understandably have backed out completely have attempted to fulfil part of their commitment in the best way they can under the circumstances.

No, there is no rule that prevents a change of judge during the judging of a particular session if circumstances mean that a judge is not able to complete the session. Indeed the Society would always endeavour to secure a replacement judge immediately from among the judges present on the showground in order to enable the classes to continue if, say, a judge were taken ill while in the ring.

On behalf of competitors, the show and the Society, let's thank James Van Pragh, Caroline Hamilton and Jo Hart for giving up their time freely to enable these classes to go ahead.

Please do give me a call, Coloured. My number is 0161 406 0084 and I am happy to speak to any CHAPS member at any time about any aspect of judging.

Dr Linzy D ickinson

[Sara]

Quote 'Interestingly, this is a judge who has stated that she does not like the idea of proffessional riders doing CHAPS classes, hence several pro horses which have won many classes this year were waaaaay down the line'

To be fair just because they have won previously does not mean that they would automatically be winning at Windsor? There were lots of the pros pulled high in the NNH class, they didn't go they got put down, may look out of form on paper but on the day this was the right thing to do.

I didn't see the judging of the last classes so cannot comment on those results

[coloured]

Sara - You may be right. I watched the classes and could see why one of the pro horses was put down in the NNH class. Quite immature in its way of going compared with the more established horses. Same can't be said for the last class which you didn't see.

I was told today that in fact the judge change happened ONLY for the last class - the other 3 classes were judged by the original combination.

Dr L - appreciate your comments, but I don't reeally want a priate conversation- I can't see why this cannot be discussed in public? Are you saying Mrs Hart was unwell? She looked fine sitting watching the class. And seemed fine judging the championship.

I appreciate your taking the timne to advise that there is nothing in the rules to say this can't be done. However, I assume that the show appoints the judges and since the show website still states that th judges were changed on SUnday to Mrs Hart and James VP, I am still at a loss as to how you can justify the change of judge.

If Mrs Hart was unwell, then that is one thing. But you do seem unwilling to say that was the case.

Once more - I cannot see the point in not being up front about this. If there is nothing to hide, then what is the problem?

And surely I don't have to be a member to ask a question? I have been a member in previous years - isn't that good enough?

[tessy]

What I cannoot understand is why the fuss? The horses were all entered well before the judge change and were more than happy then for Caroline Hamilton to judge conf. As you will know, my horse won the NNH class so I have no gripes at all! The NP winner is the form pony of the moment having Q'd for HOYS in the last month and I am sure we will see a lot more of Tom Cobley, who won the NH class as he strikes me as a very bright prospect. At the end of the day we do not know whether it was CHAPS as a society or Windsor as the show who instigated the change of judge.

[arrogorn]

Can someone tell me the full results for the coloured Ridden classes as cant get them up on the Website.

Whilst on the subject of judge changes, what would have happened if someone has travelled miles and miles to compete then just before class there was a judge change and you had a connection and couldnt go under them??

[r.e.d]

May 15, 2010 18:34:14 GMT tessy said:

What I cannoot understand is why the fuss? The horses were all entered well before the judge change and were more than happy then for Caroline Hamilton to judge conf. As you will know, my horse won the NNH class so I have no gripes at all! The NP winner is the form pony of the moment having Q'd for HOYS in the last month and I am sure we will see a lot more of Tom Cobley, who won the NH class as he strikes me as a very bright prospect. At the end of the day we do not know whether it was CHAPS as a society or Windsor as the show who instigated the change of judge.

Ditto this. Why is it a problem at all?

[Linzy D ickinson]

May 15, 2010 18:46:00 GMT arrogorn said:

Can someone tell me the full results for the coloured Ridden classes as cant get them up on the Website.

Whilst on the subject of judge changes, what would have happened if someone has travelled miles and miles to compete then just before class there was a judge change and you had a connection and couldnt go under them??

Yes, this is a good question, and it is a situation which does occasionally arise. I'm afraid, Arrogorn, in these circumstances the competitor would have to stand down. Everyone realises that this would be awful, but in the sort of situations I've described above, where there is an unavoidable judge change, that would be the only option if a competitor/exhibit had a connection to the replacement judge. It would be up to the show to decide whether to refund entry fees, and I believe that in most cases that is what would happen. Obviously, if it happens at the show itself, and again, that can happen in extreme circumstances - I can remember an occasion when a judge (not CHAPS) was involved in a serious road accident on the way to the show and had to be replaced - then it's unfortunate that the competitor will have had a wasted journey and everything that goes with it, but it's better than having to cancel the class. In the case being discussed here, the judges who were swapped on the show day itself (C Hamilton and J Hart) were the originally advertised judges for the classes so there would not have been any last minute issues regarding connections.

[Linzy D ickinson]

May 15, 2010 10:30:05 GMT coloured said:

Dr L - appreciate your comments, but I don't reeally want a priate conversation- I can't see why this cannot be discussed in public? Are you saying Mrs Hart was unwell? She looked fine sitting watching the class. And seemed fine judging the championship.

I appreciate your taking the timne to advise that there is nothing in the rules to say this can't be done. However, I assume that the show appoints the judges and since the show website still states that th judges were changed on SUnday to Mrs Hart and James VP, I am still at a loss as to how you can justify the change of judge.

If Mrs Hart was unwell, then that is one thing. But you do seem unwilling to say that was the case.

Once more - I cannot see the point in not being up front about this. If there is nothing to hide, then what is the problem?

And surely I don't have to be a member to ask a question? I have been a member in previous years - isn't that good enough?

No, of course you don't have to be a member to ask a question, but I do feel rather less inclined to have non-members call me on a personal telephone number. I would not turn away a query from a non-member, but my priority is to serve members.
I would actually like to encourage members to call me with any queries about judging so that we can move away from the sort of speculative and defmatory posts that occur so often on the internet. Indeed it seems to me that the original post above did rather more than ask a question: the question was asked, incorrect conclusions drawn and unsubstantiated allegations made before the question could be answered.

There is nothing to hide here regarding the judging arrangements, but I think it's rather unseemly to discuss a judge's health in public and I am most uncomfortable with doing so. However, the accusatory nature of your post did seem to me to warrant a response. There was an issue that prevented Ms Hart from riding; hence the judge change on Sunday. The same issue, I believe, meant that after some time standing in the ring Ms Hart needed to sit down for a while. The show officials were happy to subsitute Ms Hamilton as she had been the originally advertised judge for this section. Does that clear it up satisfactorily for you, Coloured? If so, then I think an apology on here from you for the tone and accusations of the original post would be in order. CHAPS judging rules and adherence to them are taken very seriously by me and by the Society and are governed by its constitution - there is no question of rules being made up or unmade on the spot.

I personally take great exception to the title of this thread and to the accusations levelled at the Society itself, using phrases such as 'what a farce' and 'it stinks'.
a) You are perfectly well aware that the show appoints the judges, not CHAPS.
b) CHAPS did everything possible to help the show ensure classes could go ahead with revised judging arrangements.
c) The unadvertised change that happened on the day merely reinstated the original judge who had been known to everyone when making entries.

I would add that the thrust of your argument concerning the approach to pros/amateurs is entirely outside my engagement with the thread; I concern myself here purely with the judging arrangements.

One thing I would stress, for everyone's benefit, is that judges are always expected under normal circumstances to carry out judging according to the schedule, i.e. not to swap between conformation and ride during a session, or anything of that sort. Again, the emphasis is on 'normal circumstances' because it is impossible to legislate for every eventuality that may arise.

If that still doesn't clear things up for you, Coloured, then I do urge you to give me a call because I am now treating this thread as very much cleared up from my perspective. My advice to you the next time you have a query would be that it would be wiser to ask the question and allow time for an answer before you make the accusations.

[arrogorn]

Thanks for clearing My question up linzy.

[baymare]

Linzy - I'd just like to say that as a show organiser myself I have to applaud your replies here. They have been professional and informative and you are a credit to CHAPS. It seems that often people who think they know better are quick to make snide and unjustified remarks on the internet, but rather less willing to talk in a polite and reasonable manner to the people who might actually have the answers.