Serious problems

[sallyw]

Help!! I have an 8yr old Welsh Sec A mare. She was sent away to be backed and ridden away at four (oh! what a mistake) and came back with a fault which we have been unable to eradicate. Sometimes when you get on she instantly bucks and spins round very violently. As soon as she has got the rider off she is calm again. We have spent (literally) thousands of pounds having every medical test (kissing spines was the original diagnosis - but this was wrong. She has a made to measure saddle. We have had several behavioural experts look at her; tried different calmers and other potions; had every possible alternative medicine treatment.....and so on. Put her in a cat food can, I hear you cry - well.. the problem is that she is absolutely top class. On her day she is unbeatable ridden. On the days she lets you get on she is then perfect to ride. I know there are some experienced people readin g this - what do you think?

[john]

is she having a break and then doing it after a couple of days rest? want size rider does she have? does she have a regular pattern on doing this ie: 3 days fine 4th does it?

[sallyw]

Thanks for your interest. There is no regular pattern - we have kept a dirary including everything that might be relevant from important things like seasons to small (but still a possibility) things like the weather conditions. She tends to be fine for several weeks or months and then suddenly do it out of the blue. The riders vary from Hannah aged six who must weight about two stone to MacKenzie the regular and very brave rider who is 18 but is only about six stone. Hannah has won lead rein on her - but also been dumped before she even got on properly. Mac has had some fantstic rides on her but has also been dumped at the starting gate more times than I care to think about. She has been ridden successfully many more times than not but becasue there is no discernable pattern, I feel she is quite dangerous.

[hackety]

Oh dear, how frustrating for you. You do sound as though you have tackled every available avenue!
What did the behavioural people say about her? Were they the natural horsemanship type folk? I had help with breaking my mare from a guy close to us who is a little bit on the parelli side of the fence but also has thrown a lot of his own stuff in too. He is amazing at getting the horse to think that it is their idea not to be scared or bolshy.

[umm]

have you discussed with your vet a possible hormonal problem?

[hackety]

Thats just made me think about something someone advised me ages ago .......... I was having a few seasonal issues with a mare and sought advice from a lady who supplies me with herbal remedies. She said that before we went down the treatment route we should have her ovaries scanned for cysts ........ you may have already done this but it's another stone to look under.

[another one]

hackety said:

Thats just made me think about something someone advised me ages ago .......... I was having a few seasonal issues with a mare and sought advice from a lady who supplies me with herbal remedies. She said that before we went down the treatment route we should have her ovaries scanned for cysts ........ you may have already done this but it's another stone to look under.

My thoughts to

[sallyw]

Tnaks to everyone for their input. She has had her ovaries scanned and they were clear. We tried three months on regumate - because really thought it had to be hormonal but that made no difference. The behavioural people came to somewhat of an agreement that it is something they called Socia Dominance Disorder - that it to say that she does not like to be dominated by being mounted BUT we tried to get her going in harness and she does the same thing occasionally being long reined (when she sets off first of all) and we thought it was not safe to go much further. This might point to there being a pain whe n she sets off but we have tried three months on bute and that did not work either. I am very grateful for everyone's support - at least I feel better that people actually do want to help! Are any of you rodeo riders who think you might be able to stay on - two of the experts thought this might work but as yet no-one has been able to manage it! Please keep your ideas coming.

[You may laugh]

Are any of you rodeo riders who think you might be able to stay on - two of the experts thought this might work but as yet no-one has been able to manage it!

You may laugh at this but I have actailly seen it done. In this case with a very valuable showjumping mare. The circumstances were quite similar however the timesacle not so long. In the end a rodeo rider was booked and along he came with his western saddle. And what a show!!!!!!!!!!!!! The mare did everything possible to get him off but he was like glue. The theory worked in this case. The mare went on to be a successful showjumper with a top rider. Good luck

[Les]

Sound like you have looked at everything, sorry I can only come up with the numnah. Do you change it for shows etc or wash it in different washing powder etc

[peacefultwo]

Radical I know, but it sounds like it may be a benign tumour which could be almost anywhere

[Tryer]

A's can be little beasties at times especially when they know a trick works and feel insecure. If you have a school loose her and chase her round for fun so that she relaxes and enjoys herself. Lunge her properly in side reins and teach her to go forward more than she wants to and go to the voice so that she trusts you. Lunge the children on her firstly with you in command and then them riding to your vocal commands and then with them giving the orders to the pony and riding it for themselves but still on the lunge. When she feels totally secure with them doing this -you will feel it down the lunge line. When this happens walk her around fields still on the lunge but with the child riding as far away from you as the lunge rein permits in walk, trot and canter. Chances are the pony will not attempt to spin at all.also repeat this in your school. you will know when she and the children are ready to go it alone. When they are pop some cotton web running reins with loops from the girth straps and encourage the children to ride her forward, on a contact and up together so that she feels with them. After working well and forward reward her with a loose rein. Eventually remove the running reins so that she and the children don't depend on them but don't be afraid to put them back on if needed every now and again if you feel a little extra helpm is needed. Be patient and take your time and perhaps you will be rewarded as we were.

[sallyw]

Thanks for your ideas. Unfortunately she has already put three people - including my grandaughter in hospital and we have been trying the gentle and patient approach for four years now. This is why we are now looking for radical alternatives. It still seems that some small enough person with enormous stickability might be the answer. The tumous theory is one we have seriously considered but she has had several (and some of them wildly expensive) scans plus xrays and so on (the theory was that there might be a benign tumour in the spine) without finding anything. I would be happy to let someone who thinks they could do something with her to have her on free loan..... Any other ideas? Thanks for everyone's interest.

[sallyw]

Thanks for your ideas. Unfortunately she has already put three people - including my grandaughter in hospital and we have been trying the gentle and patient approach for four years now. This is why we are now looking for radical alternatives. It still seems that some small enough person with enormous stickability might be the answer. The tumous theory is one we have seriously considered but she has had several (and some of them wildly expensive) scans plus xrays and so on (the theory was that there might be a benign tumour in the spine) without finding anything. I would be happy to let someone who thinks they could do something with her to have her on free loan..... Any other ideas? Thanks for everyone's interest.

[gem]

i have heard of this before , you sound like you ve explored every avenue, have you had teeth checked ?

Someone i know with a mare had similar problems and the vet inserted a small glass marble into the womb fooling the mare into thinking she was preganant this calmed her down straight away she is now happily doing the ridden job !

[is it]

I'm going to be prepared to be shot down BUT if this mare was mine, there is noway on this earth I would be asking anyone, let alone my granddaughter or young people to get on her especailly if she has put people in hospital.

She may be topclass but theres plenty of ponies out there that have it all - are topclass and the temperement to boot. She may be perfect conformational wise but she clearly has not got it all as she sounds very dangerous to everyone on top.

The showring isn't the be all and end all, but if you want to keep her showing, keep her doing inhands. Maybe look to use her as a broodmare (although there are serious doubts in my mind about breeding from a temperement like this mare sounds like she has especially as some many welsh a's are being produced and sold for meat money these days but its an option) or just keep her as a companion.

Sorry, its probably not what you want to hear but showing isn't worth one horse putting three people in hospital surely?

[been there]

Many years ago we had an Irish Draught Mare with more or less the exact same problem as your little A. My grandfather was adamant that he wouldn't give in or give up but fortunately an accident on her one day made him see sense. After talking long & hard to a family friend & prolific stud owner grandad decided that he would breed from her, he didn't want to have her shot, on the ground she was a pleasure to have around. However if she was going to stay she needed to pay her way.

She bred us four super foals & not one of them shows her tendancies. Three of them are at the Kings Troop pulling guns in there display, the fourth is doing very well in the dressage arena. I hasten to add that there was a contingency plan had she bred nutters but i am so glad that she didn't & finished her days naturally as a happy broodmare.

[Guestless]

is said:

I'm going to be prepared to be shot down BUT if this mare was mine, there is noway on this earth I would be asking anyone, let alone my granddaughter or young people to get on her especailly if she has put people in hospital.

I have to agree. I wouldn't want it on my conscience if someone else ended up in hospital.

I understand the breeding option and that could be the solution but it is a very big risk particularly when you haven't got to the bottom of her problems.

[been there]

guestless said:

is said:

I'm going to be prepared to be shot down BUT if this mare was mine, there is noway on this earth I would be asking anyone, let alone my granddaughter or young people to get on her especailly if she has put people in hospital.

I have to agree. I wouldn't want it on my conscience if someone else ended up in hospital.

I understand the breeding option and that could be the solution but it is a very big risk particularly when you haven't got to the bottom of her problems.

Guestless you are right about the risk you take when deciding to breed from something quirky & incidentally we didn't ever get to the bottom of our mares problems. We just felt that it was worth the risk on the basis that we believe the horses & ponies should have a job to do. Ultimately our plan was that the foal would stay with us until 3 years old & it was ready to be broken, my grandad would not have considered parting with the horse until we knew he was safe. We never had any problems with him & he is leading a happy military life!

[Dummy]

I had a very similar situaion with one of my first ponies.

Briefly I had owned this pony for around 10 years and she was 100% . I was unwell and the mare had around 6 months off work.

Bringing her back into work she started bucking, which esclated into full scale bronks!! I knew this was way way out of character for this pony so had the vet out, had physio etc etc every check done was done.

After about 3 months of investigating she was referred to a vet who was a back specialist. It was then discovered that this pony had osteoarthritis in a small section of her spine. The vet said to keep her in work as the arthritis was very low grade and it would benefit her.

However when we went to ride her she bucked, even on hughe amounts of but.......the vets confirmed this had become a behavioural issue, she learnt that over the 3 months or so of investigation, the minute she started bucking the vets said GET OFF....so I did.

We decided to retire this pony, only because she obviously was not happy with working, she had given me 10 great years and now it was time for her to be a pet... However it was suggested to us to try a dummy........ ie strap a dummy on the pony so when she has an episode the rider does not come off and no one gets hurt .......

This is suposed to be a good tool for overcoming some issues with horses, I never tried it as my pony did have a medical condition but it might be worth a go???

[dontbother]

i have to agree with is it. Some ponies are just not to be ridden and however wonderful they maybe is it worth the risk, as to be honest would you really ever truly trust the pony for children. There are to many decent ponies out there to keep going with dangerous ones, you may end up with people in hospital or peoples confidence wrecked.
Although it is not an easy decision I would have to agree to either go down the brood mare route very carefully or retire it.
We have a pony that has bronked everyone off. It does it for no reason, just because it can. The moment you let your guard down it has you off - to me that is not a nice trait and after trying many tactics it is now sitting out in the field doing nothing. To me it is plan nasty, there is no reason for it and it knows when it can do it. Although is it lovely it is not worth the risk and even when it is being good you never enjoy riding it because you never know when it may dump you next. To me it provides no pleasure at all, whats the point? i do this for fun and that horse certainly isnt!

[Guestless]

been said:

We just felt that it was worth the risk on the basis that we believe the horses & ponies should have a job to do. Ultimately our plan was that the foal would stay with us until 3 years old & it was ready to be broken, my grandad would not have considered parting with the horse until we knew he was safe. We never had any problems with him & he is leading a happy military life!

I think it's great that it's worked out well for you, but IMO there is a bit of a difference in that the pony in question in this situation is a Section A so offspring would be a likely candidate for a child. I'm not getting at either of you - I bred from a "difficult to ride" mare myself last year - so far so good - but her problems were all man-made in her previous home.

Fetherston have you thought about alternative career paths, eg driving, where a rider wouldn't be necessary?

[Is it]

Sorry guestless, I couldn't think of anything worse than putting a bucker into harness. Bad idea imo, to drive you need to implicitly trust your horse and most importantly you need to be safe.

[Guestless]

Is said:

Sorry guestless, I couldn't think of anything worse than putting a bucker into harness. Bad idea imo, to drive you need to implicitly trust your horse and most importantly you need to be safe.

Mmmmn, true.

Okay, maybe a bit off the wall, but what about getting one of those horse therapists out to see if he/she can get the pony to tell you what is wrong......not sure I believe in this, but as a last resort I would give it a go.

[Cherrytop & Spicery Stud]

Has anyone tryed to ride her with out her saddle

[john]

you have had her backed checked, and properley. she could easily put it out when in field etc, as like a human and it be fine for a while and then clunk out again.

[sallyw]

She has had a year off, John, to see if that worked. She can also buck the first tiem ridden after the chiropractor has been and sometimes not - and yes, I have ridden her without a saddle. She was fine the first time and bucked me off the second. I think the general trend towards beeding from her is probably the only one. I have her full sister, half brother, and the mother of all of them. The mother is about to come out under saddle and has never bucked. The sister is winning lead rein in her first season. The brother is only a yearling yet but has no sign of problems. There is a good chance therefore that it is not in the family. I guess I do not like to be beaten on the ridden front...

[Hsaith]

My american friend that this problem. She enlisted a horse whisperer.

If you email me I will go through it, as its quite long and needs to be done carefully.

Take care

H

[sallyw]

Thanks to everyone fo their interest. The mare is going back to her breeder to be used as a broodmare. Between us we have dozens of relatives, none of which have this problem - so we think it is a one off. To the person who annonymously sent me a particularly nasty email to my personal address - yes, you were right it is me and yes, the mare did beat yours in hand at the show you mentioned. The fact that she could not be ridden is irrelevant - some mares never get ridden they are broodmares all their life. I suggest if you are so bitter, you get yourslef a better pony.

[Guestless]

Glad you've got a solution fetherston, even though it's not your preferred outcome (ie being able to get her to enjoy being ridden).

There are LOTS of highly successful broodies who have had an attempted career under-saddle but (for various reasons) have never taken to it, and I think the person who emailed you is most definitely suffering from a case of sour grapes.