judge
Junior Member
Posts: 154
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Post by judge on Dec 4, 2006 18:43:38 GMT
As a BSPS judge I've recieved a declaration to sign to say I have no convictions/cautions etc relating to offences against children.
Obviously it's good they're taking child safety seriously, but why not use Criminal Record Beauro checks so that the information given can be verified rather than taken on trust?
As a primarily children's society I feel that the cost of it could be justified.
Does anyone have any opinions on this?
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Post by Cherrytop & Spicery Stud on Dec 4, 2006 19:38:06 GMT
Mum mother is a teacher and like she says it only shows up anyone that been caught not the ones that are getting away with it.
But I do think more checks should be done on theses judges
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Post by Guestless on Dec 4, 2006 20:02:18 GMT
Mmmmmnn interesting - I assume the law must be different down south as people up in Scotland have to have disclosures down whether they are voluntary or employed and working with children or vulnerable adults. I don't know if judges up here are checked or not though  |
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Post by Know about them on Dec 4, 2006 20:50:34 GMT
I have had CRB checks done, I work online. In Scotland you can apply for your own, although I live in Scotland I have also had one done in England which I applied for myself. You go through an 'Umbrella Organisation' of which their are many.
The BSPS and any other organisation that wanted to do CRB checks, doesn't need to be a registered body and they can go through an umbrella organisation.
I think all judges should have them done. It is fair to say as someone pointed out that it only shows up those people that have actually had a conviction. But that is better than nothing.
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Post by vet on Dec 4, 2006 21:15:58 GMT
Are BSPS actually doing them or are they getting judges to complete a form and sitting on them in the hope that nothing ever happens? Have never noticed anything in AGM accounts to suggest that any society has actually paid for these to be done. Are judges being charged to have them done? which version are they going for the basic or the enhanced versions? The enhanced ones are very through and can take months to come through if people have moved around alot and let's face it horse and pony people do.
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Post by Know about them on Dec 4, 2006 21:26:16 GMT
Vet - my Scottish one came back in 7 days and my Engish one within 2 weeks. I think they are much quicker at getting the checks done now, but they are probably slower at new school term times I would think with new teachers having them done. A basic disclosure is so basic it would be a waste of time. I thought everyone working or providing voluntary services wherever they are in the UK are by law required to have enhanced disclosures now if their work means they could potentially come into contact with children.
It really is so simple to get them done now, you can even get them done online by providing a passport or driving license number. I can't remember exact cost, I think my Scottish one was somewhere around £15, the English one is more expensive for some unknown reason but was only about £20-£25
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Post by safety on Dec 4, 2006 21:34:41 GMT
i agree enhanced CRB's should be done for all judges not only the new ones and that the Societies should make it clear to members and parents which checks they do and how often they repeat them.
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judge
Junior Member
Posts: 154
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Post by judge on Dec 4, 2006 21:37:05 GMT
Are BSPS actually doing them or are they getting judges to complete a form and sitting on them in the hope that nothing ever happens? Have never noticed anything in AGM accounts to suggest that any society has actually paid for these to be done. Are judges being charged to have them done? which version are they going for the basic or the enhanced versions? The enhanced ones are very through and can take months to come through if people have moved around alot and let's face it horse and pony people do. The point I was trying to make is that the BSPS aren't doing them. We have been asked to fill in a self delcaration form provided by them (not a CRB form). |
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Post by present on Dec 4, 2006 21:41:10 GMT
About time the BSPS caught up with other organisations then.
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Post by Not Sure on Dec 5, 2006 0:20:50 GMT
The enhanced CRB costs £35 and is only valid on the day it is produced.
As in this relates to working with children an enhanced disclosure would be necessary.
However, the disclosure will reveal all sorts of info, and not necessarily just crimes, but convictions, reprimands, final warnings & cautions can be listed on them, as well as specific offenses or allegations of offenses relating to children or Vulnerable Adults. Would the BSPS be able to maintain confidentiality? Would you trust everyone on the council not to blab private info about you?
My only reservation is that a judge is in the middle of the ring for the whole world to see, instances of abuse rarely occur in the middle of the show ring by a judge, and this is the only contact they have with children!
So is it really that necessary to pry in to someones past, when it could produce irrelevant but potentially damaging information to someones reputation?
If someone was a paedofile or child abuser, whats to stop them standing at the side of the ring? Will spectators be asked to produce a CRB disclosure too? What about stewards? Car park attendants? the list is endless!
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Post by Not sure on Dec 5, 2006 1:07:22 GMT
I agree with you overbent, children do need protecting. Paedofilia is something I will never understand! However there are lots of reasons why people end up on POC register, not always for sexual abuse.
When a child makes an allegation and the refferral is considered to register the alleged perpertrator on the POC register, the burden of proof is lowered 'on the balance of probabilities' not 'beyond reasonable doubt'
I was shocked when one judge recommended someone to have their name entered on the register for an offense against a child on the balance of probabilities that she did it purely because she "had the oppertunity", and that was it. How many oppertunities do show pony judges have to abuse a child?
There was no other evidence to suggest that she did what was alleged, and I am probably breaking my code of conduct at work by saying this. Although this case is in the public domain on a government website when she appealed.
The point I am trying to make is when a child makes an allegation, weather it is true or not, peoples lives are so badly effected by it, sure when there is conclusive evidence throw away the key, but there are people on the list who have had allegations made against them and the conclusion of an investigation is inconclusive!
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Post by Woof woof on Dec 5, 2006 12:14:58 GMT
"My only reservation is that a judge is in the middle of the ring for the whole world to see, instances of abuse rarely occur in the middle of the show ring by a judge, and this is the only contact they have with children! "
Agree with that. What about stewards? Or producers, course builders etc etc? Since all eyes are pretty much focused on them during a class I'd say the ring is pretty much a safe place to be in that respect.
I think this is just an exercise in the BSPS covering their backs here and can't criticise them for that in todays litigious society so better safe than sorry.
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Post by CRBD on Dec 5, 2006 12:32:46 GMT
The BSPS and any other society have to be trusted to maintain confidentiality under the remit of the Data Protection Act and anyone breaking this would be subject to prosecution. Pleanty of other sporting organisations already implement these checks and no-one should fear them. If there are issues then surely it is only right and fair that a Society is made aware.
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Post by franc on Dec 5, 2006 17:28:28 GMT
CRB's would help prevent the druggies moving around in showing as well as the paedophiles.
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Post by Sense on Dec 5, 2006 20:08:16 GMT
What a good idea  |
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Post by Penny Clifford on Dec 5, 2006 20:16:33 GMT
can somebody please tell me if all judges are being sent this as i am here in Scotland i as yet i have not recived it.I have an enchanced Disclosure as i work in a School. I have to go through Disclosure every 3 years as it is my Education Authority policy.
i think it is a very good idea to have everybody who is in contact with vunerable people to have this , in my humble view IT will make anybody slightly "doggy" to think again before they get involved with the pony game
Penny Clifford
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Post by woof woof on Dec 5, 2006 21:55:46 GMT
Re: CRB checks in BSPS « Reply #15 on Today at 5:28pm » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CRB's would help prevent the druggies moving around in showing as well as the paedophiles Yeah, I mean my local county show is just awash with Columbian drug dealers...  |
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Post by Atitude on Dec 5, 2006 22:09:37 GMT
Surely "woof woof" what was meant that those in positions of responsibility should not indulge if they are to be entrusted to judge children and why should competitors pay to be judged by someone who might be high.  We all know that dealing and using goes on at shows. Heaven forbid anyone driving trucks under the influence. If people don't use or have never been caught then there won't be a problem. |
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Post by Me again on Dec 6, 2006 0:03:31 GMT
ohh are there drug dealers/users at shows? I must be naieve! never seen any! - Apart from the odd bit of bute here and there! |
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Post by woof woof on Dec 6, 2006 3:41:33 GMT
Well, I must be green and uninformed-you're right...oh, and crass too...or I need stronger specs, being blissfully unaware at many a show of the drug induced activities around me.
If my sarcy humour has offended I apologise, as that wasn't my intention. However... my previous albeit "crass" comment sums up my view in that respect. Now, forgive my green-ness yet again but I wasn't aware the local police station's nearest showground rates highly or at all on its planned drug raid calendar.
Drug testing will "maybe" curb any substance abuse, but CRB's - how will they have any effect whatsover? Only in respect to those with a previous and related conviction and whilst the odd person may have that particular skeleton in their cupboard, the majority of judges I know or have known have never struck me as having been bandana clad bog eyed ravers in their time.
CRB checks would reassure competitors they weren't being judged by a criminal...or one who'd ever been caught. I see nothing wrong with checks on that basis, infact I think it should be standard with all societies.
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Post by sensible on Dec 6, 2006 7:43:38 GMT
Your comment regarding the police is exactly why CRB checks should be implemented across the board by all the organisations which include competitions for kids. If a horse show is deemed an inocent activity it could be used as grazing for the unscrupulous and our junior members could be put at risk. The rest of us should be able to make up our own minds if approached.
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Post by OK on Dec 7, 2006 0:01:00 GMT
What is wrong with being judged by a criminal? Lots of people have done time...when people have repaid their debt to society and 'done porridge' do you not think they should have a second chance, the stigma attached to being ex con (not just talking about pedo's) is enourmous! No wonder people dont want folk to know!
And like mentioned earlier, what about all the other officials at shows, stewards, cleaners, parking attendants, first aid, vet, farrier, sponors, joan lee-smith, oh and spectators?
Sorry but WHAT IS THE RISK? A person judging a class in full view of the world getting the oppertunity to abuse a child - think we need to put some context on this!
I do not think that having a judge with a CRB has any advantages at all!
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Post by Not OK on Dec 7, 2006 8:05:40 GMT
Sorry but WHAT IS THE RISK? A person judging a class in full view of the world getting the oppertunity to abuse a child - think we need to put some context on this! I do not think that having a judge with a CRB has any advantages at all! OK - of course nothing like the above is going to happen in the ring in full view of everyone. I suggest you have a good read up and learn about 'grooming'. This starts somewhere and a judge by his/her very role is already in a position of trust. Paedophiles build on trust. Judges also need to be educated. I saw a judge this year place his hand on a childs thigh and keep it there whilst he pinned a rosette on her number string in the ring in a first ridden class. This kind of thing has to stop. Although probably done in a totally harmless way, it doesn't look good. |
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Post by well said on Dec 7, 2006 9:36:35 GMT
Well said not ok, you beat me to saying the same thing, grooming of these young people etc,I think what ok said is dredful, i reckon she should go and speak to a child who has been abused and maybe ok would change their mind, i have come across one judge who always asks if it is ok to pin the rossie on the number string and also asks if it is ok to put the prize money in the childs pocket -- think this is a nice thing to do
what do others think?
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Post by anna on Dec 7, 2006 15:20:50 GMT
I thought judges has been advised not to touch competitors or their animals, it makes sense.
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Post by Not OK on Dec 7, 2006 16:15:36 GMT
I thought judges has been advised not to touch competitors or their animals, it makes sense. Gertrude that is what I understood too. But the message doesn't seem to have got through to them all. |
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Post by trifid on Dec 7, 2006 22:03:29 GMT
CRB checks will show up allsorts of activity. Surely judges should set an example on how to abide by rules be they set by a Society or by the Law of the land. These checks are not threatening unless a person has something to hide.
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Post by CB on Dec 7, 2006 22:08:34 GMT
Does anybody know if the BSPS or anyone else actually gets these CRB checks done or is the paperwoork for appearances sake?
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Post by not sure on Dec 8, 2006 0:13:44 GMT
well i am glad there is a mixed reaction to this debate, some fore and some against.
I feel judges do need to be more aware that the most innocent of acts/comments WILL be misconsrued by someone with a suspecting personality. It is no longer acceptable to touch anyone these days, it is very disrespectful esp without asking!
I sincerely hope that anyone who is innocent and is recommended to be put on the POCA or POVA registers that the recommendation is rejected.
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Post by helpful on Dec 8, 2006 8:37:15 GMT
CRB checks are a precautionary measure and should not necessarily exclude anyone.
They can be used to act as a measure of risk to be considered on an individual basis.
They have come to be feared as yet another label in an imperfect society rather than considered sensibly.
Their brief is so broad that much is inaappropriate to many situations.
Where there is the possibility of risk they are useful.
They don't say anything not already known.
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