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Post by what if on Jan 4, 2007 8:43:39 GMT
After all the talk of stewarding at Northleach i wondered if we should start a debate about stewarding in general. I know we depend on our hardworking stewards and most are honest people who love showing but i have felt for some time now that stewards if they wanted could be as important as the judge lets say in a HOYS qualifier were there are 30 plus ponies forward a judge gives his/her mark then walks away, how do we know that mark is the one the judge gave if a steward was dishonest they could give a much higher mark to a friend and how would anybody know, the judge cant remember all the marks in the classes, the top marks are so close a couple of extra points can make all the diffrence. Only if the judges were making sure that a certain animal was winning would their be a query. The 2 judge system makes the honesty of the stewards as paramount as the judges. If a judge ever was unhappy about a result and could remember a certain ponies mark then the steward can just say they misheard the mark, after all we can all make a mistake, that happens often as we all know. Lastly i feel that the only way round this is for a judge to stand over the steward and watch the mark be written down but whenever that happens people start saying the judge should not be looking at the marks i think the judge should always check that the correct mark is given i would like to know other peoples views what do you all think.
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Post by Guestless on Jan 4, 2007 11:06:43 GMT
I think you are treading on fire. If people start criticising stewards and inferring some of them are dishonest, then you will find no-one will want to steward. It's difficult enough to get good stewards as they don't have the same kudos as judges and generally (at least in the ring) take a lot more abuse from entrants/entrants' mothers. I can see where you are coming from, but as someone who stewards regularly I am horrified to think that there may be some stewards who change marks.
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hackety
Junior Member
Elegant and light in the hand!
Posts: 122
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Post by hackety on Jan 4, 2007 11:54:22 GMT
Agree with Guestless on this although there is no harm in constructive discussion. I have judged regularly over the last 10 years or so and can honestly say that I have never come across a steward who has given me any reason whatsoever to doubt their integrity. We must remember that as a judge I do at least get my expenses paid whereas stewards very rarely get anything apart from lunch provided. They also often are on their feet for longer than the judges and have to do far more running around for rosettes, results and getting people into the classes etc. I generally ask a steward at the beginning of a class to just repeat the mark that I give back to me so that we both know that each mark has been heard correctly. This doesn't take any extra time. Also, if I have an inexperienced steward, I will quite often watch them write each mark on the sheet and even if competitors think that I am 'referring' to previous marks feel that this is a better situation than making a mistake. Ultimately, it is the judges responsibility for the outcome of a class.
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Post by julie on Jan 4, 2007 12:26:39 GMT
I did my first bit of stewarding for the local PC show then did a couple of affiliated classes last year and was asked to help stewarding at the West Mids In hand this year but am now worried! All of my judges were interesting and kind, I love WHP so managed to do those though the marks are a nightmare. Each time I added up and we both double checked the scores. It is hard work but I really enjoyed being on the other side so to speak, though it was very difficult not to respond when competitors failed to jump a fence (the urge to shout KICK ON had to be stifled) or to stop "jumpers leg" (when you stand outside the ring lifting your leg as they jump round)!!!!!!! But I will pack a calculator.....
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Post by what if on Jan 4, 2007 13:38:02 GMT
I did not intend on criticising stewards as i said earlier without them there would be no shows and they work d**n hard and long hours i just wanted to debate if we would like to see the judges watch the mark be written down before walking away, at the end of the day the judges always get the blame if the competitors are not happy with their marks. I am just stating that a steward could give a higher mark if they wanted to, we are all so ready to condem a judge if they judge their friends how many times do people come on here going mad about some judges and without any doubt there have been some terrible slanging matches on here with people outrighly accusing some judges of fixing classes, i am only saying it could happen with stewards if they are left to write down marks that will never be checked by the judge. It is only a debate i am not accusing anybody just asking what do you all think sorry if i have caused any offence to any steward that is the last thing i want.
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Post by Philippa on Jan 4, 2007 14:06:30 GMT
Lol - What if. I read your post this morning before any replies had been added and thought it was close to the bone. I was expecting heads to roll. Hopefully no one thinks you are 'accusing' stewards of this, I didn't when I read it but then people read things in different ways.
Great topic for debate though, well done for having the guts to post it.
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Post by stewards on Jan 4, 2007 16:49:04 GMT
once we was in a hoys qualifier and the conformation judge we new loved our pony and he asked to buy our pony and every time we went under him we would be top but in this particular class he gave us a realy low conformation mark and he had judged the pony mostly in inhand classes and he had won and got champion many times at big major shows. so he oviously thought he had good conformation. but we new the steward and she had been funny with us before i even said to my mum oh god this steward is stewarding! we had come above her ponies and she said our ponies didnt diserve 2 and we new she did not like us so maybe she put another mark down and not what the judge said but you never no in these situations so the steward could of just misheard! as even the judge came up 2 us later and said i dont no why your pony got droped from 3rd place 2 6th place we said but you did not give us a very good conformation mark and the judge said i cant excatly remember what mark i gave you but i no it was 1 of the highest and he also said because you no i love your pony and we did get a high ride mark so it wasnt the other judge. so maybe the steward did put another mark down i suppose we will never no
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Post by Chaps on Jan 5, 2007 4:02:12 GMT
At CHAPS steward training they made it explicit that stewards should repeat the mark back to the judge, esp in HOYS classes and if there are any doubts on either side the judge should witness the recording. This was in response to the Royal Show saga!
I feel that it would be risky for any steward to engage in this sort of activity, as judges are free to look at the marks sheet too, not saying they wouldnt remember but I'm sure a judge would have some idea of how things went! You very rarely see judges shocked/horrified/amazed with what wins a hoys qual they have judged, so I really do not think this goes on!
Did I once read somewhere that a steward had recorded the first pony in the class a low mark by accident and the judge was then not allowed to alter it, so he awarded every other pony in the class a low mark relative to the one he had given the first? I'm sure it was WHP?
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Post by Never know on Jan 5, 2007 4:05:35 GMT
once we was in a hoys qualifier and the conformation judge we new loved our pony and he asked to buy our pony and every time we went under him we would be top but in this particular class he gave us a realy low conformation mark and he had judged the pony mostly in inhand classes and he had won and got champion many times at big major shows. so he oviously thought he had good conformation. but we new the steward and she had been funny with us before i even said to my mum oh god this steward is stewarding! we had come above her ponies and she said our ponies didnt diserve 2 and we new she did not like us so maybe she put another mark down and not what the judge said but you never no in these situations so the steward could of just misheard! as even the judge came up 2 us later and said i dont no why your pony got droped from 3rd place 2 6th place we said but you did not give us a very good conformation mark and the judge said i cant excatly remember what mark i gave you but i no it was 1 of the highest and he also said because you no i love your pony and we did get a high ride mark so it wasnt the other judge. so maybe the steward did put another mark down i suppose we will never no Well judging from what the judge said and the mark the steward wrote down I would say you do know! That is if what you say is a true story! I am VERY suprised you did not complain OFFICIALLY!
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Post by Had a go on Jan 5, 2007 9:02:51 GMT
Having competed in ridden classes for 23 years I had a stint of stewarding for two well known judges at a HOYS qualifier last season. It was a very enlightening experience, the classes were huge with over 33 forward in each and I honestly have to say I learnt so much on presentation due to the different perspective of watching the class from the centre rather than the outside of the ring. Both judges repeated marks to make sure I had heard correctly and were looking for specific qualities in their winners. As it was a class for older children they asked for an adventurous individual show, they also rewarded those who went for it. I would certainly recommend the experience- it opened my eyes!
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Post by stewards on Jan 5, 2007 9:09:27 GMT
we did go to complain but it was a few hours after the class as the marks sheets were only just given out also you have to pay to complain and we just thought they were most likly not going to do anything about it as they would need several complaints. so we didnt complain in the end probly wouldnt make much difference the winner was going to win anyway seen as they were very well known even though the pony who won the class was a novice and went round like a novice it couldnt even canter to the sides of the ring. i think the society would of just backed the steward as you hardly hear anything done about a complaint
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Post by Philippa on Jan 5, 2007 9:49:07 GMT
Stewards - sorry but if what you say is true then why did you hesitate when asked to put your money where your mouth is? The whole reasoning behind paying to complain is that you need to be certain of your convictions when you do it. You obviously were not that certain. I know if I had been in hoys qualifier and in with a shout I would have been bold enough to put my money down.
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Post by Pho3nix on Jan 5, 2007 9:57:59 GMT
like anything in this world there will always be questions about results in any shape or form. I agree that stewards could have some influence but its like a game of football, if the ref isn't sure, s/he consults the linesman and that still causes some controversy. The only way to be sure that marks are awardly fairly would be to have two or more judges each from different areas of the ring awarding certain marks for certain things. Even then it is not fault proof and will cause problems in itself. probs one of those "get on with it" jobs i suppose
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Post by ferret on Jan 5, 2007 11:12:04 GMT
i do quite a bit of local judging and have in the past done some stewarding at county shows ...my feeling is that it is the Judges responsibility to make sure that the marks are correct and the ponies are placed as they should be ...at the end of the day it is the judge that stands in the middle and watches the lap of honour go round .....they shouldnt want to stand there doubting the final outcome or have egg on their face !!!
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Post by what if on Jan 5, 2007 12:55:29 GMT
No one seems to be answering the question do you think that judges should watch the mark be written down so that a steward cannot write down the wrong mark either by mistake or otherwize? Incidentally a few judges i have spoken to over the years have said they have been surprized at the winner of a class they have judged but presumed the other judge had loved it. Also as the marks cannot be changed at a later time than when the show finishes nothing can be done it is to late.
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Post by Pho3nix on Jan 5, 2007 14:50:45 GMT
well a simple answer to that is let the judge write down the marks as well as the steward and compare at the end, to make sure the marks are identical. the steward after all could miss hear the mark awarded.
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Post by ferret on Jan 5, 2007 15:02:36 GMT
yes i think it would be good if the juges took the sheet off the steward and then wrote the mark down themselves . And agree with 'whatif ' with the two judges senario ..its more difficult to police . The best way ( but it would take the surprise out of the final placings )would be to do it like they do at the elite , eve performances etc...ie the judge / steward holds up a score board ..this way everyone can see the marks ...no one could change anything then !!!!
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Post by Arab style on Jan 5, 2007 16:12:47 GMT
Would it not be better if judges in HOYS quals did what arab judges do and hold cards up with marks on and the commentator notes them down and adds them up?
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Post by stewards on Jan 5, 2007 19:42:18 GMT
as we got the marks a few hours after the class had finished we could not of complained as you have to complain within 1 hour of the class ending so this was another reason we did not complain. but like i said it could of also been that the setward miss heard thats why i think it would be a great idea for the judge to write the marks down then there would be no questions about the marks!
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tj
Newbie
Posts: 0
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Post by tj on Jan 5, 2007 21:28:22 GMT
as we got the marks a few hours after the class had finished we could not of complained as you have to complain within 1 hour of the class ending The rule usually states that you have to complain within one hour (or 15 or 30mins) of the incident occuring (in this case the publishing of the marks).
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Post by tiggy on Jan 15, 2007 9:54:44 GMT
Well I do a lot of stewarding and to be perfectly honest don't know of any of our stewards who would do this deliberatly - but mistakes and mishearing does happen esp on a windy day and if the judge gives marks quicky and then gets on with next competitor - we are only human after all - I always repeat the marks back to the judge if possilbe.
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