Feeding Foals

[rja]

Please could someone help!! We have 2 welsh d foals born May and June we have no grass just mud, and so they are having hay. They also have two feeds a day. Giving them Hi-Fi, Mare and youngstock mix, and one is having 1 small cup blue chip, as she lost her mum early, and vet said she needed building up. With all this Laminitis around dont want to feed them the wrong things, but also want them to grow well and be strong! As I said we have no grass, and so have to feed them perhaps better than someone with plenty of grass. Just want to do the right thing by them, and wanted your opinions. ( One breeder recommended baileys No. 1 cereal is this advisable?) Thanks.

[Deleted]

I would feed them a stud balancer and plenty of fibre. Why not ring some of the manufacturers of balancers ie, top spec, baileys etc, they should be able to give you a free feeding plan, from top nutritrion advisers xx

[sarahp]

Seconded!

Mine (Welsh A and D) are eating hay, grass, Top Spec Stud Balancer and some grain-free TS Conditioning Cubes, not many though. The balancer will supply all necessary micronutrients for healthy growth, and if any extra calories are needed for improving condition the cubes will supply that and can be altered in quantity to suit without altering the supply of micronutrients. I'm fanatical in avoiding sugar and starch, ie molasses, which is normally found in mixes as used to bind the ingredients, and cereal grains, so personally would not feed a mare and youngstock mix or Baileys cereal. I've found the Top Spec nutritionists particularly helpful

And for reading more of my feeding prejudices have a look at the current rash of threads on laminitis in the Equine Health forum!

[rja]

Thanks for those thoughts, yes have read threads re laminitis, thats why i wanted to pick your brains re feeding, as there are so many different opinions around at the moment! x

[Deleted]

rja - good for you, getting proper help. This breeding thread has helped me no end, as a novice breeder. The experienced breeders, give first class unbiased advice, that we can all learn from xxxx

[rja]

Thanks for that lovepink ! Yes all I want is the best for my foals, and hopefully they will grow into strong well balanced animals, and if I am lucky I will be able to show them successfully, but that will be second place to their welfare and health! x

[sinead]

you shouldnt need a balancer as mare and youngstock mix will have all the right levels of nutrients that a foal needs. if they need building up they will need a weight gain supplement or extra protein. i would go for build and glow, conditioning cubes, milk pellets, soya or linseed, corn oil.. then you can add as much or as little as you feel each one needs and its not a big volume of feed! ( then you can feed omething with a little starch or molasses in without any harm.

would recommened equivite body builder (milk pellet) top spec conditioning flakes (soya oil)build and glow (soya and linseed) or dollop or sugar beet?depends what works for your pony really- each are very different!

poss soak the feed so its a soggy mush to make sure they have the best chance of digesting all the nutrients?

good luck and put some pics up!

[northbeech]

For me - Its top spec feed balencer all the way. The foals get it, the broodies, the competition mare, the lami prone shetty.

Thing is, with the feed balencer, you know they are getting everything they need, in the right amount, then if you need to you can add onto that. Try and keep things simple.

Mine are on Alfa A Oil - for fibre and the oil for the coat ect, top spec feed balencer ... and for thoose who need a bit more condition top spec conditioning flakes. This suits just about everything i have. Use the feed specialists. They give the best advice and that is what they are there for.

[sarahp]

I can only hope sinead's post is a wind up. If not, please can she talk to some of the feed company nutritionists and read some books/internet articles on the science of feeding for the sake of her foal's future health.

[rja]

Yes was a bit puzzled by sineads post as it goes against everthing everybody has said! Think i will go with the top spec balancer and Hi Fi, this seems to make the most sense! Thanks everyone for your help, any more thoughts feel free to post x

[kayjayem]

I guess I'm lucky but my foals, 2 sec B's & 2 partbreds, are living out with ad lib (very good) haylage and free access to a mineral/vitamin block and are like little barrels with shiney coats and very bright eyed and bushy tailed. When they were first weaned they were on topspec balancer, alfa oil and soaked grass nuts and stabled and they were bouncing of the walls and getting fat as I couldn't get them out as everything was just too icey. As soon as the first thaw came and they could acclimatise comfortably they went out and haven't looked back. If they were fed as sinead recommends I think they would have exploded by now.

[harrythepig]

or possibly contract OECD

[junetimp]

Jan 3, 2011 23:16:10 GMT harrythepig said:

or possibly contract OECD

Agreed

[sarahp]

While feeding this morning I checked how much I'm feeding the D foal - she has the recommended amount of TS Stud Balancer (I didn't check that) and 500gms per day, which is about 1 lb, of TS Conditioning Cubes, which are grain free, along with grass and hay when in at night. Growing well and rounded without being fat on that, just beginning to get to the lanky stage now, and not rugged as not going showing but will just be turned out on grass once it starts growing again.

[rja]

Thanks sarahp do you feed any chaff, hi fi etc, as I wondered if this would be a good idea given that my paddocks are just mud at the moment?

[eskvalleystud]

we feed all our stock alfa a original along with a small amount of youngstock mix if I really think they need it but mainly just a good high fibre diet, we feed haylage to all of them as where we are the winters harsh so hays not enough

the alfa a gets mixed with alfa beet or speedi beet, atm due to problems with our access road they are getting fairly decent sized feeds twice a day of this, well soaked and think its doing them good so cannot see why you cannot add an extra feed of something like alfa a and beet for them if they don't really have grazing, although at the end of the day if they are getting enough hay along with two balanced feeds a day I am sure they will do fine, there are so many different types of fancy feeds available these days, many to fatten youngsters up for the showring and its just not right, keep it simple and you will be just fine

have seen the results of what body builder does along with all those other mad things mentioned and for youngsters it would be a timebomb to feed them that, over loaded joints and an invitation to laminitis - avoid things like this like the plague!!!

[sarahp]

I don't feed any chaff, they get grass (enough in the field for pickings while they are out, no hay in field to encourage them to walk and exercise) and hay for their fibre. If I did I would feed alfalfa/oil and cut down or omit the cubes (but not the balancer) but find my foals don't seem to like it much. I'm too mean to pay bag prices for HiFi except for the insulin resistant pony, they can eat hay with similar feed value instead! Soaked unmolassed sugarbeet would be another possible fibre source, but I'm an arthritic old crock and like to give myself as little work as possible, ie no soaking stuff, especially in freezing temperatures.

There is no one way to do things, different systems suit different people, circumstances and horses as long as the principles of feeding them correctly for healthy growth are observed.

[kilnstown]

I keep re-reading this post does anyone think sinead recommend the milk pellets and conditioning flakes as in the oringinal post one of the ponies had lost its mum early and the vet had advised that it needed building up a bit, otherwise i cant get my head round it at all. My inbye fields are all very wet and so any foals i breed winter inside, they only get good quality hay that we make ourselves, and stud cube, with a feed balancer added, I have used milk pellets before though on a foal that I had bought from another stud who unfortunately lost its mum at seven weeks, he hadn't been getting a lot of milk and these did help him and I weaned him off them at five months which is when he would have been weaned otherwise, this was an individual case and i wouldnt recommend it otherwise.

[sarahp]

But rja's is now past weaning age when you yourself said you stopped milk pellets at 5 months.

I don't want to start an argument, just have a look at all the current crop of posts about laminitis and EMS. There is no need for foals to have cereals and molasses which can predispose to them getting EMS in the future, they are better off on more suitable feeds for which horses' digestions are designed. And these are native pony foals remember too.

[rja]

Hi. Have just spoken to Top Spec Nutritionist, very helpful, and she breeds natives herself, so understood their needs. She has recommended Top Spec Balancer 125gms twice a day, and a scoop of alfa a lite twice a day, and to introduce some cool cubes that are cereal free. Also ad lib hay which they are getting at the moment any way. I know she was promoting their own brands, but at the end of the day they are no more expensive than anyother good balancer. Will try this new regime, and see how they go, after all what I really want is happy and healthy foals. The 8 month foal lost her mum when she was 12 weeks, and before that the mare did not produce much milk, and so from a very early age she was introduced to creep pellets. She is still smaller than the other foal who is only 7 months, but I suppose we will have to bear with that fact, as she nearly didnt survive herself, and so we are lucky to have her with us, and that is a great comfort after losing her wonderful mother.

[sarahp]

Yes, she's great isn't she? Good luck, and maybe the little one will make it up in due course.

[sinead]

oo no i dnt mean all of them or in a large quantity! i got the impression that one of the foals was left mum early or abandoned or somethin and was in poor condition..

i would and do feed a balancer to foals- top spec. i dnt even give mine youngstock mix because i dnt like the amount of starch in the recommended volume. but i was mearly pointing out that they are good weight gain supplements but use ur common sense!
milk pellets for very young ones to help them without mums milk, top spec flakes are good but again cereal however top spec are good and will recommend a reasonable dose. build and glow is apparently suitable for foals at 80-120g per 100kg personally i would only feed very short term if somethin was struggling to keep weight on and to something i dont want having cereals. and at a dose of maybe 50g a day for a section a size. just until i saw it pick up a little.

having said all this- if foals have routine, decent ad lib hay or forage/fibre diet, and are getting the right nutrients (from balancer in most cases)and are not gettin wet and cold constantly, then there should be no reason why a native should drop weight unless underlieing problem or the feed isnt agreeing.

[rja]

Foal isnt losing weight, just needed a bit more condition to see her through the winter, (as stated by reputable equine vet) she is happy and health, with plenty of energy, but unforunately our grazing is practically non existant this year after the early bad weather. Also as I mentioned in an earlier post, she is a bit smaller that the younger foal, even though parents were a good size, and so I want to ensure I give her the benefit of correct feeding so she can grow to her full potential. Thanks for all your comments.

[sinead]

ah ok sorry i mustv mis read your first post! my mistake sorry! i thought it was a foal in poor condition rather than just needing a bit of catch up! then yes tope spec balancer is great stuff and mayb top up with a little of the cond flakes if you feel she could do with a few more calories- top spec will give you a amount guide. i like top spec as most of the nutritionists show or breed natives and top spec is made with natives in mind. (wheras i feel d and h are tb orientated so more cereals and starch!) good luck!

[chestnutandfourwhites]

how confusing things are ,are we doing right or wrong ? when i got my foal 12 years ago ..not my first i fed nim stid mix and codlivine was his only supplement .but what i also did as this was easy ,i got my YO to put a manger in his stable that went from wall to wall accross at the back ,i would put him in a full bale of hay and let him pick away , no probs and happy foal.

[toby09]

How things change over a few years.
I always used to feed a stud mix to my weanlings but since rearing two fortnight old orphans on Suregrow, I won't use anything else; it makes things so easy and you feed very little, something like two cups a day depending on size. They don't have anything else with it just adlib haylage when they come in at night and they looked pictures of health all the way through with no sudden spurts of growth at all.

Incidentally, foals dont have their digestion systems developed enough or have the teeth ready to chew chaff of any kind before they are about seven months old; the same goes for sugarbeet as they can't digest the sucrose until a bit later.

[sarahp]

Yes, research and new products all the time. Especially for those with natives, increasing knowledge of EMS/insulin resistance is bringing more awareness that feeding cereal grains and molasses is not a good plan, if you can avoid these (ie the stud mix!) and stick to forage feeds and a balancer like suregrow they will do better long term.

I wean mine from 4 1/2 months and by then they can eat hay very happily by then and do well on it, and they will have started eating grass long before that so I'm surprised about the chaff, haven't heard that before. I don't feed unmolassed sugarbeet anyway.

[Deleted]

Jan 8, 2011 19:54:09 GMT sarahp said:

Yes, research and new products all the time. Especially for those with natives, increasing knowledge of EMS/insulin resistance is bringing more awareness that feeding cereal grains and molasses is not a good plan, if you can avoid these (ie the stud mix!) and stick to forage feeds and a balancer like suregrow they will do better long term.

I wean mine from 4 1/2 months and by then they can eat hay very happily by then and do well on it, and they will have started eating grass long before that so I'm surprised about the chaff, haven't heard that before. I don't feed unmolassed sugarbeet anyway.

Sarahp - Why not feed unmollassed SB? I do as its 100% fibre without the sugar, which I thought you were dedicated to?

[sarahp]

Sorry, my mistake and typo, thanks for picking it up! I don't feed molassed sugarbeet, only unmolassed, with reference to toby09's remark about digesting sucrose.

[CarolineNelson]

Jan 8, 2011 19:54:09 GMT sarahp said:

Yes, research and new products all the time. Especially for those with natives, increasing knowledge of EMS/insulin resistance is bringing more awareness that feeding cereal grains and molasses is not a good plan, if you can avoid these (ie the stud mix!) and stick to forage feeds and a balancer like suregrow they will do better long term.

I wean mine from 4 1/2 months and by then they can eat hay very happily by then and do well on it, and they will have started eating grass long before that so I'm surprised about the chaff, haven't heard that before. I don't feed unmolassed sugarbeet anyway.

Quite correct. Most (original companies, such as Spillers) Stud Nuts/Mixes were formulated for TB's.

I agree, it must feel like a minefield to a new Breeder, with so many 'conflicting' ideas - and Companies all nudging each other for business.
And I also agree that Top Spec are able to give sound, sensible, practical advice.