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Post by Fizzyflora on Feb 21, 2011 15:18:40 GMT
Hi guys,
Just curious to see who will be breeding this year and who will not and who is going to be buying???
I have a warmblood mare who I bred from 2yrs ago and she produced me a beautiful foal but he ended up having to be PTS as a result of contracted tendons and a club foot.
I'm toying with the idea of putting her in foal this year....but my worry is that it may result in heartbreak again (although the vet has said there is only a small chance of it happening again) but I really would like another foal off her just as a hobby,not to sell etc.
But then with the Market being the way it is do I buy exactly what i want instead of breeding which as we all know is a bit of a lottery and the Market is flooded with unwanted horses so should I offer the perfect horse a perfect home???
So who's no longer breeding and who's buying instead???
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Post by Fizzyflora on Feb 21, 2011 15:28:30 GMT
I think the same, I think some rules need to be brought in about over breeding, I would only be breeding to keep and for a hobby as I said. I think the prob with England is we normally stick to the rule "if you can't ride it , breed from it" no matter what is breeding is,conformation,temperament etc.
xxxx
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Post by Tallyho on Feb 21, 2011 15:44:45 GMT
I've got friends breeding but only from very special mares. At the moment my foot is firmly in the buy camp! You breed what you get, you can buy what you want. In my case a stunning boy who would have cost me 3 times over to breed than to buy as is very very special. No matter how good your mare, how matched the stallion is to your mare you can still end up breeding a lemon and then have all the cost to keep it. In 3 years there will be a distinct lack of quality young stock as people are slowing down. Certainly the ones I k ow who do it carefully to produce quality. It costs more to put it on the floor than to buy one at 3 unbroken. Silly but fact at the moment it seems.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2011 15:55:06 GMT
Buy, like tallyho says if you breed a lemon your stuck with it. Where as you can pick whatever you want if you buy one. There are so many decent horses and ponies out there who are wanting homes, give them a chance while the economy is on its knees.
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Post by elmere on Feb 21, 2011 17:34:34 GMT
If it was a genetic problem and was possibly passed down from the mare then I would not breed from her and risk it again. I am definitely not buying anything, I am planning to put my mares in foal again though, they will only get fat stood in a field.
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Post by Fizzyflora on Feb 21, 2011 17:43:34 GMT
He wasn't born with the problem so vet says it was just bad luck....but elmere do you really think that the way the Market/over breeding probs we have that a justified reason for putting a mare in foal is because if not they will get fat in the field?
xx
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Post by elmere on Feb 21, 2011 17:51:24 GMT
Yes due to the risk of lami, I would rather have too many ponies than ponies with lami. Also I breed Highland ponies not thoroughbreds, welshys or coloureds where overbreeding is a real problem. It doesnt matter if the foal was born with it or not, it could still be genetic did your vet advise you whether it was or not?
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Post by Fizzyflora on Feb 21, 2011 18:29:46 GMT
my vet said that if he was born with it then he would have said it was genetic but because it developed when he was 14months they think it was due to a trauma to his foot.
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Post by holiday on Feb 21, 2011 22:20:44 GMT
To my way of thinking you can look at it two ways from a breeding point of view. You can produce something stunning or something that is of no value to an outside person, you can cross the most perfect Sire x Dam who compliment fabulously and still not get what you expect. However if you do breed you must not look at your mare through rose tinted glasses and be highly critical of every small point to justify correction, each one of my brood mares I know every little flaw and mostly what to look for in a stallion to correct or improve. Then to be quite truthful it is down to luck!!!!! We have had leg problems with the odd foal but it has been tended to immediately and has not proved long term to be a problem, this I have discussed with the vets at the time who in general have not in the slightest felt to be genetic. Breeding is costly there is no hiding this fact so to be honest it is cheaper to buy and have the guarantee that you know exactly what you are getting. As the old saying goes "Fools breed horses for wise men to buy!!!!!!!!" and it is so true. So you ask breed or buy? I will do both, but mainly the first I will put my mares back in foal, I have up and coming stallions who need progeny on the ground to prove their worth, and some of my older mares whos bloodlines and types I do not want to loose from my breeding programmes will be kept full whilst they are fit and able. I will buy bloodlines or stock I feel will compliment and fit into our breeding programmes, as I always have, and if we dont sell our youngstock they will stay until the economy picks up or someone comes along who may wish to take them further. We try to assess each individual and as all breeders do, try to improve each generation and stock arriving each year, we are excitedly awaiting our first foals of 2011 and each and everyone one which arrives will be as exciting as our first ever foal!!!!!!!! If I ever lose that feeling that will be day I stop!!!!  |
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Post by fibb2010 on Feb 22, 2011 9:23:35 GMT
Well Said Holiday , I am also going to continue to breed knowing full well all the risks and money it involves. We all need to remember that "YES" there are thousands of unwanted horses being bred and most of these have uncertified breeding , no type and not the best conformation ect but if we stop the quality breeders like holiday who bred with consideration , purpose ect then i beleive the whole " Equestrian Industry" would start to crumble within years. Studs would cease leaving stallions unused and people out of work - this would then have a knock on affect to the showing/competition world with people not having the " Good Stock" to show so this would affect the shows like RIHS , HOYS , BSPS , BD and all the grading/ reg societies. I am in no way claiming that only expensively bred horses with verified breeding ever get to these shows but it is a true statement that the majortiy there are. This is only my opinion and i have no intention to upset anyone
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toby09
Junior Member
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Post by toby09 on Feb 22, 2011 9:26:28 GMT
Perhaps this might be a good time to say I think the market is changing slightly now, for the better I might add, as within a fortnight, I have sold two; a mare for breeding and a three year old gelding. Admittedly, they were the only enquiries for them but even so, it's started which is good, people just have to be very realistic about pricing. The market will pick up again but perhaps not to the silly prices they once were or it will be the silly prices that don't sell as quickly because people have got used to lower prices. People with money, usually keep their money, it's the people with doubtful jobs who are having the problems in the main justifying spending too much on a hobby.
Of my 3 mares, only one is to be put in foal for definite which should certainly be very marketable, another maybe and the young filly will be left empty although I had been toying with a Connemara for her; I'm trying to cut down now and still have two geldings to sell, then I'll be happy.
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Post by oberchis on Feb 22, 2011 10:21:15 GMT
I have 3 mares due this year with the intention of keeping at least 2 of the foals. I'm toying with the idea of covering my brp broodmare for 2012 foal but will probably leave her empty and cover her in 2012. She has fantastic breeding and i'd like to try and breed type from her as she hasn't yet she's had 3 foals 2 by a pb andalusian and 1 by a coloured cob
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Feb 22, 2011 12:00:46 GMT
Everyone is different, and if you want a particular thing it is far cheaper and easier to go out and buy what you want.
But for at least some of us who breed, it is the challenge of choosing the mating, the excitement of seeing what is born and the sense of achievement if it is good that is what we enjoy, rather than taking part in shows or competitions and there is no substitute. Speaking for myself, I've always bred first and ridden second, now I can't do the latter any more anyway.
Having said that, last year I've only covered where I will keep the offspring if it is what I want, currently a filly by my D stallion for me to keep, and only two very precious A mares out of the herd were covered for this year. Any D colts will be for sale, depends what the As are like and what sex but all will stay until they find suitable homes. The old D mare will be recovered in 2011, and maybe my daughter's filly, that's up to her, not sure yet about the As, it may depend on what I get this year. Having lost bloodlines in the past I do prefer to have a daughter coming on of each family and one mare will be 9yo this time so I may cover her - not always as easy as it sounds to get the right daughter! And I like to have the odd youngster about to be shown. I do have two lent out to be shown this season which I'm thrilled about, I do breed them to be ridden and used.
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Post by sjp on Feb 22, 2011 14:36:28 GMT
I think this is such an interesting debate because part of me thinks we drastically need to decrease the amount of foals born but those who take great care over every foal they breed should be the ones to continue as they tend to be the breeders who take responsibility for what they have created.
We have one mare in foal for this year, we won't cover any this summer but do hope to cover one mare the following year.
We breed to keep rather than to sell and only bring a foal into the world that we can look after well. When we do sell the occasional gelding we write on their passport that they can come back to us if needed as I couldn't live with myself if any of our ponies found themselves in less than good homes.
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Post by elmere on Feb 22, 2011 14:56:13 GMT
I think the problem is though that it is the responsible breeders (those who tend to breed selectively) that are breeding less or not at all because of the mess we're in and it is the irresponsible ones that are still breeding (those who tend to throw a stallion in with a field full of mares and not care what comes out) so therefore yes we are going to have very few quality ponies if it carries on. The societies need to change and put a stop to it but who can see that happening? Why are those that breed the hill Dartmoors that get sent for meat for example still allowed to carry on? I breed Highland ponies and our society has schemes to try and encourage people to breed more and use differant breed lines so it is quite the opposite but surely if you can encourage the breeding of animals then schemes can be put in to stop it from happening aswel but I dont think societies are trying hard enough, if at all!!
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Post by Tallyho on Feb 22, 2011 15:00:33 GMT
Anyone who breeds with consideration, like holiday, and how my mum did for years deserve to carry on breeding for they are the foundation of our sporting / showing. They produce the quality that those of us who want to successfully compete at a reasonable level go out and buy.
My friends will breed and to be honest, i'd have bought any one of the foals they've bred in the last 6 years - beautiful. Breeding is an art form and should be left to those with the talent, enthusiasm and commitment to do it properly.
I have no problem with ANYONE breeding from there mare, or keeping a colt entire if it is in the top 10% quality wise for there breed / type. I don't endorse the arguement that 'riding club folk and happy hackers' need cheap horses so its ok to breed from mediocre to facilitate that.
Then again, to be honest i'm in favour of controlled breeding all round.
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Post by holiday on Feb 22, 2011 19:40:30 GMT
I would just like to say thank you for those kind comments above, I must admit to thinking carefully to even replying to this thread knowing it could quite quickly turn into a heated debate and knowing how breeders can be all tarred with the same brush, I feel some regulations would be fantastic to prove the worth and justification of breeding with some mares which is why we try to put ours forward for grading and get an outside view of our stock, comments on type and conformation which in real terms could be missed, I am usually in agreement of marks and outcomes of gradings but this has come from starting with learning and watching gradings and critically looking at comments that have been given. We have had some huge successes with our stock especially this last year however this has come in a steep learning curve and assessing the market and the needs of it. It is to me a full time job and committement 24hrs a day, we do not go on holiday, or even have a night out, well maybe once or twice a year we may nip out for a meal, our horses come before anything, as long as they have tea on the table we are happy with whatever we can manage or bother to rustle up!!!!!! If we do go out we never leave the farm unattended and will ask family or friends to be here, sad but true but we love our life 100% |
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Post by sjp on Feb 22, 2011 19:44:55 GMT
Completely agree Elmere, those that produce 20 - 30 foals (or more!) a year can't possibly take responsibility for all they breed and they will be the people still expecting the same numbers this year and next.
I really don't think there should be any breeding premiums especially for Welsh Mountain foals!
Tallyho, I think your right in that controlled breeding is the right way but how to do this?
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Post by chorro on Feb 22, 2011 19:53:01 GMT
I probably wouldn't breed but have just acquired a sec a who is in foal but heaven knows what too
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Post by harrythepig on Feb 22, 2011 20:33:01 GMT
I really hope the market is improving for everyone who undertakes 'responsible' breeding. The other side will be the endless pony foals which arrive at sales around the country.
My worry is the value that the 'well bred' horses are able to achieve. There is still a difference between the price it costs to get a foal on the ground (an upwards) to the figure most people think is reasonable to pay.
Some education amongst horse owners of these costs is really needed but Im not sure who can be responsible in spreading it.
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Post by smokeycott on Feb 22, 2011 20:52:43 GMT
i probably wont cover my mares this year as the market is so depressed at the moment.
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Post by sellyblue on Feb 22, 2011 20:57:40 GMT
Smokycott I will be depressed with no smoky babies to coo at x
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Post by sjp on Feb 22, 2011 21:15:30 GMT
Smokecott, it's little studs like yours and mine who I think should be the ones who should continue to have a few select foals but here we are saying we probably won't be breeding!
Shame some of the bigger studs don't care as much!
Selina
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
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Post by kayjayem on Feb 22, 2011 22:21:48 GMT
I have a band of 12 broodmares which have been carefully bred/selected over the last 30 yrs, I have 5 foals due this year and will probably only cover 2 this year although I have 2 stallions(3 including 1 who is on loan to come out under saddle). I have spent a lifetime carefully selecting my mares so I have no intentions of selling them so I will just have a field full of beautiful Ladies of Leisure for the forseeable suture!
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drea
Full Member
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Post by drea on Feb 23, 2011 0:32:17 GMT
we didnt cover anthing last year, and not coverin anything this year either we only usualy breed to keep them especialy the clydes, so just gona show the welsh cobs instead and break one of the cobs to ride for my daughter and she's gona show the younster, we did toy with covering one of the clyde mare's with a tb or warmblood but dont think wel'l bother this year
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Post by norwalk on Feb 23, 2011 0:56:00 GMT
I think it depends on your reasons - if you want to continue a bloodline of a favourite mare and have the satisfaction of raising/showing the foal then go ahead... If you are embarking on breeding in the hope of selling then I probably wouldn't... Definitley more risk involved with breeding, at least if you buy a youngster you can see it first!!!! however, that doesn't replace the bloodline and satisfaction  |
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Post by beckylock on Feb 23, 2011 9:58:43 GMT
I have about 20 horses and most bar a few OAP are show/ breeding /babies. At the moment I am breeding to keep and show tho I will sell the odd colt and maybe filly to a good home. Tho if I couldnt sell anything I am not worried as we have enough land to just run them on and see what they turn out like.
I am doing this as I want to ride at HOYS on my own breed pony have done it on bought in stuff but really want to qual and ride on my own breed. Finger x next season I will be out undersaddle on one of my babies. I also get a massive buzz when I get a call from a owner of my babies to say they done well at something. Even if it just going on the first hack or best of all a big win at a big show.
All my girls are graded and so are my stallion and any outside stallion I pick. I take alot of time with picking outside stallion for my girls
Tho it would be alot cheaper just to go out and buy what I was after but what the fun in that... lol
Down points are you can lose the foal and/or mare massive vets bills no sleep no life the list goes on lol. I almost lost my best mare a few year ago and have not covered her since as I am to worried over her. So started riding her again last year and have had loads of fun with her.
But that buzz is what keep me going seeing a new born foal standing for the first time and watching it become a adult is just amazing.
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Post by smokeycott on Feb 23, 2011 23:10:32 GMT
Smokycott I will be depressed with no smoky babies to coo at x dont worry will have some gorgeous ponies for my future jockey !!! if i cant sell the lovely ponies i have - no point breeding more :-( supply and demand im afraid . if everyone halfed their foals only breeding fro their very best mares and stallions , in a couple of years demand and prices will be back up and no more ponies going to the zoo !! :-( |
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Post by boothsdale on Feb 25, 2011 13:43:39 GMT
I guess it depends on whether you can go out and buy what you want! When we started breeding the A's it was because (despite lots of looking) I couldn't find a nice young show mare/filly that was for sale AND I liked enough to buy!
I probably could go out and buy one now but we currently have a lovely stallion on lease that I want to keep a few daughters from and like Sarah some mares who I would like a filly out of to continue the female line... my current dilemma is that I kept 2 fillies last year out of my 2 oldest mares and by said stallion, the cross worked very well and I could have sold both of them several times over ... should I still be covering these mares when I probably wouldn't keep a full sibling...
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EJM
Full Member
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Post by EJM on Mar 3, 2011 14:36:05 GMT
i am buying a 2 year old with the hope she will be my foundation broodmare (very well bred filly) in the future i will be breeding for myself to show and bring on to ride i am lucky to have friends that help and enjoy showing them too for me.
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