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Post by helle on May 20, 2011 11:13:47 GMT
As there are quite a few people on here with ponies with EMS I thought I would share my recent discoveries with you!
Our pony with EMS has to be fed- vets orders- not the topic of this discussion! I thought I would be a 'resposible' owner and have refused to feed her anything that isn't approved by the Laminitis Trust, even when my feed merchant has tried to persuade me that f.ex. other nuts are as good but cheaper. However, having done some more reserch the other day it appears that the feeds recommended for laminitics may not necessarily suit ponies with EMS. As I understand it, feeds need to be low in sugar and starch. F.ex. I bought some high fiber nuts, approved by the Laminitis Trust, advertised as low in calories. They contain 4% sugar and 10% starch, highly unsuitable for my pony. Lots of the chaff type products are also high in sugars 4-6% due to still having some mollasses added.
Due to this discovery and also because this product was highly recommended by someone I trust, I am currently chaning our EMS pony to Simple Systems feeds. I have no idea if it will work, and it is expensive by no more than a vet's visit when she next have laminitis. I will let you know how she gets on. In teh meantime, if you are feeding you EMS pony, just have a very close look at WHAT you are feeding it!!!!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 20, 2011 12:45:07 GMT
I'm always banging on about reading bag labels, that would tell you what is in the feed.
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Post by emma3870 on May 20, 2011 12:58:36 GMT
yes - i was astounded at reading the bag labels on some of our chaff! needless to say she came straight off it.
Gem just has antilam atm as well as soaked hay and clean straw on her mats twice a day. she is fine on that for now. changing feed is not an easy thing to do with an EMS as it sets them off so quickly.
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Post by coxwood on May 20, 2011 13:17:05 GMT
I think what you also need to keep in mind is what you are trying to avoid is sugar rushes I have not changed what I am feeding my ems pony . He is allowed grass for 1/2 hour a day atm whilst coming back into work and gets soaked hay, hi-fi light and speedibeet , which is what he has always had but I have to add he was not overweight when diagnosed .
I think unless you are feeding a totally unsuitable diet then be careful about diet changes not that I don't agree with you , feed companies make feed for the owners , after all ponies would just happily live on grass .
EMS is complicated I have owned two ems ponies both of whom had lammi in one foot only and both suffered an injury / illness prior to it being diagnosed . I think there can be triggers it maybe that it is already lurking undiagnosed but needs something to tip them over the edge.I am interested in the research that is being carried out as I think there is more to be learned about this condition .
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Post by equinim on May 21, 2011 22:03:54 GMT
simple systems feeds are brilliant for ems /laminitis / liver problems / allergys i used them a while ago and gone back to using them with excellent results ill b using them from now on. totally grain free feeds as natural a feed as u can feed a horse/pony.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 22, 2011 6:57:58 GMT
There are laminitic friendly feeds in many manufacturers' ranges, not just Simple Systems, and independent of the Laminitis Trust badge, which is a voluntary scheme undertaken by the manufacturers. Read the bag labels!
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Post by ladywell on May 22, 2011 15:41:38 GMT
We have a 15 year old Welsh A mare who has EMS and is prone (and always has been) to laminitis. She is not overweight but has the typical cresty neck and hollows above the eyes puffed out. She has run out all winter with no additional feed (other than hay during the heavy snow). 5 weeks ago she was very 'footy' - brought her in - on ACP for 2 days and bute for 4 days. She is having Hifi lite, speedi beet and Top Spec Anti Lam. I understand that Magnesium Oxide is good for helping to disperse the fat deposits and have also read that if the hay is harvested from natural, unfertilised herby rich fields it does not need to be soaked. She has half an hour each morning and evening on our grass yard (which we grazed off with sheep first). SarahP - you sound really knowledgeable - I would welcome your comments.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 22, 2011 16:21:16 GMT
Well my EMS pony is on some unsoaked hay - but I'm very careful to check she is OK on it, as you say hays do vary - hifi lite and AntiLam. Unmolassed sugar beet is fine, can't remember without checking if speedi beet is - I think so but you can always check the bag label yourself to make sure! Mine doesn't get any grass except the tiny bit that grows in the old sand school in which she lives, can't be much in your grass yard if your sheep are like mine!
I haven't gone down the MgO route as I think if it is useful I would trust TS to include it in the AntiLam - why don't you ring their excellent helpline and ask them. You could always get your hay analysed too, again I haven't bothered.
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ssz
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Post by ssz on May 22, 2011 19:59:31 GMT
Top Spec Top Chop is the best I find for laminitic/EMS as it contains no molasses whatsoever, unlike Hi fi Lite, I think Dengie now do an unmolassed chop. Mine is on Anti-lam and Top Spec Top Chop, soaked hay, magnesium and his meds and plenty of exercise and not much grass!!
There is a forum of Yahoo groups which is called The Metabolic Horse which is very informative too.
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Post by hedgehopper on May 22, 2011 20:19:14 GMT
We are also at that scary point where i look at my ems pony and think what can i feed?He was never fat in his life,or lazy(we bred him),but he went from fit to nearly dying just like that.We have taken 2 yrs to reach this point..he has unmolassed chaff,soaked hayand 30min on hungry sheep patch,then in the menage..he is now exercised at least 5 days per wk,for min 35min,mostly walking.Now he is starting to look more than ribby,so have upped the hay..am quite worried about what next!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 22, 2011 20:22:33 GMT
How about a more fattening alfalfa chaff and unmolassed sugarbeet?
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Post by sanlirra on May 22, 2011 20:34:00 GMT
when we had charley she was very slim and had suffered bouts of lami , now shes a very round pony well muscled , when shes used to run up light i just feed the speedi beet and hi fi light , sometimes twice a day and she looked fab in showring condition (not fat) she was fit and sound , if you saw pics before and after it was unreal she was having alot more feed but better feed , shes was totally sound
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Post by silkiesue on May 22, 2011 20:34:39 GMT
I had an EMS mare on loan last year. I fed the top spec top chop lite -fab stuff, also the anti lam balancer. All her hay was soaked and she was turned out in a paddock with virtually no grass (i.e. mud). I found it best to weigh all her hay and fed her at 1.5% bodyweight when she needed to lose weight and 2% to maintain weight. If she needed extra I used fast fibre, well soaked. This diet, combined with exercise at last 3/4 times a week kept her looking fab! She came off all medication and the vets couldn't believe she was the same pony.
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Post by hedgehopper on May 22, 2011 20:43:53 GMT
Thanks,have bought some unmolassed sugarbeet and will introduce very slowly.Trouble is he feels so well that he bounces around,which is so great that it makes me all weepy,but it certainly keeps him lean!
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Post by ladywell on May 22, 2011 20:57:46 GMT
Hi SarahP - Speedibeet and Kwikbeet are both unmollassed. Sorry to be thick but what is TS?
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Post by silkiesue on May 22, 2011 21:05:47 GMT
TS = Top Spec
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 23, 2011 6:29:55 GMT
Thanks ladywell - I fed Kwikbeet during the winter so know that one's OK, but wouldn't want to make claims on any feed I wasn't sure of.
Checked on my Hifi Lite bag and it contains "molasses extract". I know this came up before - anyone asked Dengie what this is? I haven't as my pony has always been fine on it, I know the TS ones (sorry!) are totally free of anything molasses related. They have mint in though and some of mine aren't keen on it.
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Post by torgrosset on May 23, 2011 8:21:23 GMT
I've not read this whole thread so somebody else may have written the same as me, but I've posted something similar a while ago along the lines of the fact that the "lami trust" approved feeds aren't always suitable for lami/ems/ir ponies! For instance hi-fi lite has molasses extract in it. I now always read my labels and have been feeding my lami/ems pony TopSpec Antilam for about 18 months or more now and I'm sticking with it as I know she's doing well on it.
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Post by nici on May 23, 2011 9:03:15 GMT
I have learned so much from this site, and one thing in particular - as said so many times by Sarahp - read the bag labels! Having a laminitic pony was the start of a very steep learning curve for us, up until then I tended to go with the flow regarding feeds, not that our little natives have ever needed much. Now I am so much more careful.
At certain times of the year, based on workload and how well our grass is growing, our lot, including little laminitic Bella, need extra calories, even though they're out 24/7 on grass, as our grass is rubbish. They get balancer and speedibeet, and we give them alfa oil rather than hifi, a small handful for maintenance, more if they need the extra calories. Our little laminitic pony needed to build a lot of muscle over the past year, so the alfa provided a useful source of protein for her. We also give them linseed lozengers as a source of oil, again varying from just a few to a cupful when they need the extra energy.
At the moment, our paddock looks as though there's no grass at all on there, but it's growing quite well after the rain we've had, so we've reduced the quantities of everything except the balancer.
Only one of our ponies is laminitic, but all get the same diet as all are small native good doers so are treated as potential laminitics. I may have to rethink a bit in August when we finally get our new lad, a Welsh C yearling. Even then I don't think I'll change what is fed, I'll just take into account his needs as a growing youngster. He's certainly not going to be fattened up for the show ring, as he's coming to us as a potential all round performance pony for the future (his Daddy does dressage / hunter trials/ ODE / sj / hunting / WHP / driving trials etc and we hope he has passed on his versatile genes to his son!)
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 23, 2011 9:32:49 GMT
Please don't change what you feed for the C, just alter the quantities to suit him as you said! Cobs not quite as bad as As but I currently have two of our As who are in for showing on diets who have never had anything beyond this sort of EMS friendly diet and grass. Fed to show early in the year, then a question of keeping that and not adding more when the grass comes through.
Sorry if I'm boring anyone about the bag labels but it's simple and important!
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Post by nici on May 23, 2011 10:50:17 GMT
Thanks Sarah, that's what my instincts were telling me to do as it seems to be working so well for the rest of them. He may need bigger quantities than we're used to but I will be keeping a very close eye on his condition as with the rest of them so he continues to grow healthily.
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Post by coxwood on May 25, 2011 15:25:00 GMT
I have just had a pony diagnosed with EMS albeit very,very mild tested at 48 norm being 26 . He is 18 a retired sp who we have owned for 10yrs never had lammi before and never had weight issues he is fed hi-fi and speedibeet / hay and is turned out for 5hrs a day . I have never fed him anything else as he cribs and now that he is retired he does not need to be in show condition and looks incredibly healthy .
I have decided against giving him metformin as he is borderline and want to control with diet if possible I can only lunge really as he is slightly arthritic . He has been x rayed and his feet are fine no issues at all . I do not know really what has tipped him over as the grazing he is turned out on is quite poor but cannot help and think age is playing a part particularly after this winter I am assuming horses metabolic rate does decrease with age ? I should add he has no fat pads and his ribs are just visible but does seem to have a very slight crest that he has never had before since retiring .
I should also say he is a complete stresser and if he was human would be a chain smoker just wondered if anyone has had a similar experience . He most definitely isn't an overweight native and doesn't fit the bill .
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Post by helle on May 25, 2011 16:04:59 GMT
just out of interest and due to his age, did the vet test for cushings as well??
our little a is of a very busy and stressy nature.In fact her first attack of laminitis was due to stress. Apparently, so I was told by the vet, the change from being ridden often to being hardly ridden can bring this to the surface.
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Post by coxwood on May 25, 2011 17:53:27 GMT
He was negative for Cushings - he does occasionally get hacked out but my daughter is too big for him really and he just jogs round can out walk anything . He didn't stop suddenly he has gradually retired I honestly believe that it is possibly partly down to the really hard ground we had over winter and again now combined with age he does have excellant feet and isn't shod . I think there is alot more to find out with EMS and I can definitely say he has had low sugar feeds because of the cribbing no treats etc.
I have my hay tested so I know that it isn't over rich etc . I just hope that I have done the right thing in not going down the metformin route.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on May 25, 2011 18:18:03 GMT
I'm sure you're right in that we don't yet know the full story with this condition and there is lots of research going on all round the world. I'm sure also that all our metabolisms can change as we get older. There is such a thing as concussion laminitis, maybe that played a part as you suggest. Whatever, the important thing now is to keep him well.
There has been a small study that showed, rather against their expectations, that metformin isn't that useful as it is not well enough absorbed by the gut to give a high enough blood level of the drug. But very early days for that one, lots more research needed. My EMS mare, much worse than yours, isn't on it, after discussion with the vet, and is fine, just controlled by diet only, and very successfully.
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Post by coxwood on May 25, 2011 19:19:25 GMT
My vet is happy for me to do diet/exercise as he is borderline . I have had a mare that was a classic EMS pony when little was known about it but I think it is important to look at each case individually . He has had colic in the past possibly caused by ulcers so I am careful about his diet and feel happier about not doing the metf route as I think it cause other problems .
I don't know whether anyone else can answer this question but why does the firmness of the crest alter during a bout of lammi ? I have felt the crest of ponies at different times of the day and it does alter my vet said she just thought it was fat ( I think she thought I was a bit mad ) I know it can soften and reduce with weight loss over a period of time but that is not what I mean .
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Post by jack009 on Jun 16, 2011 22:18:10 GMT
Allen and Page do a sugar and cereal intolerance mix ideal and recommended for EMS. My mare is on it plus a magnesium supplement, 30 mins of exercise daily, grazes all day on a field not rich in grass but not barren and a small net at night. Bloods have come down from 386 to 16 in 4 months. She's 20 by the way and a TB X.
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Post by emma3870 on Jun 17, 2011 6:38:42 GMT
coxwood my pony gets very stiff if left in which I have been told is one of the symptoms of EMS. Does your pony have arthritis or is he stiff because of the EMS? Mine was in the high 40's when tested and she is on 14 metformin a day and they have made a huge difference to her mobility. She is 15 so middle aged.
Mine won't touch TS chaff. I also took her off the antilam as felt it was too strong for her. She is just on happy hoof and speedi beet. I soak her tablets in water between feeds as she won't touch them otherwise. Personally I think the £14 per month the metformin costs me from the vet is worth it.
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Post by jinja on Jun 17, 2011 7:14:25 GMT
Coxwood I have no idea why the neck gets harder but the neck gets rock hard in a lot of cases. Whe we had a darty prone to lammi my farrier and my vet told me to feel his neck. I have also got a brood mare that has had 1 episode of stress lammi when she went to stud, whenever my vet comes to see her no matter what the reason he always checks her neck. I too would love to know why this happens.
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Post by Tinabops38 on May 6, 2015 9:44:30 GMT
Hi I'm new to this group ? I'm finding this very interesting to read,I've just got a loan pony who has ems (no medication needed at the min) I'm just after some more information on whats best to feed him,I'm currently taking him off the grass for about 4-5 hours a day,feeding him a mix of Dengie hifi lite and happy hoof,not are which is the best to give him and what supplements ate best!! Thanks for any advice given
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