|
Post by tigger on Aug 8, 2011 20:15:29 GMT
just to point out there are some good farmer out there - Ron (who I work for + who's farm I'm based on) is very loyal to his customers. Last year when the crop was so bad we ran out of his own hay by christmas, so he sourced it from all round the country at the best price to keep his regular customers happy - selling it at a break even price as he was buying it in at the same price he sold his own for and did not want to upset his customers! Most years he ends up doing a delivery or 2 christmas day + boxing day as you allways get some who have 'forgotten' to order and have run out!! He's invested a lot of money in the spray additive system which treats hay to keep it dust free and better quality - purely done for the horse market! Customers still complained at a small increase to compensate despite agreeing it was top quality hay. He has already bought in over 300 large rounds to guarantee he will have enough to see his customers through this winter (as his own crop is still down on previous years) - he says if he ends up with 100 or 200 left over next summer (which of course he will have paid up front for!!) then he doesnt mind as some customers always want old hay or need it throughout the summer. On top of all that he's coming up 69 years old, still works a 70 hour week and takes pride in keeping his cutomers happy. oh and lets not forget those customers who do a runner without paying after running up large bills, those that bounce cheques etc etc!!
Personally I think he's worth his weight in gold and if his price goes up for a pound or 2 a bale this year I shall happily pay it!
|
|
|
Post by bizzylizzie on Aug 8, 2011 20:58:08 GMT
No VAT paid on hay/haylage/feedstraw/fodder! It is zero rated, like all feed (apart from an occasional can of dog food/cat food)!! No our horse haylage is standard rate as it is packaged and prepared for horses, therefore falls into the same catagory as your can of dog food.
|
|
kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
|
Post by kayjayem on Aug 8, 2011 21:07:57 GMT
No VAT paid on hay/haylage/feedstraw/fodder! It is zero rated, like all feed (apart from an occasional can of dog food/cat food)!! No our horse haylage is standard rate as it is packaged and prepared for horses, therefore falls into the same catagory as your can of dog food. Really?? How the hell do HMRC draw the line at what is and isn't VAT rateable. What is to differentiate between haylage for cattle and horses
|
|
|
Post by hs on Aug 8, 2011 21:15:43 GMT
I think the mark up on hay is probably less than the mark up on most equine products. For example i was thinking of chaff which lots of us use I pay 10.95 for dengie good doer and that is mainly straw which they get probably buy for about £1.50 a bale due to economies of scale.
|
|
|
Post by amanda on Aug 8, 2011 21:16:23 GMT
sorry to deviate but just bought excellent small bale hay weed and ragwort free good sized bales for £3.00 a bale ,large bale haylage top class £35.00 delivered, some people are just in it to make money!! suppose it depends where you live
|
|
|
Post by Julie(luke3) on Aug 8, 2011 21:19:00 GMT
I bought an electric fence battery yesterday and it is now just under£20 Huge price increase in everything these days! I think people will take a leaf out of 'The Good Life' soon!!! xx
|
|
|
Post by chorro on Aug 8, 2011 21:56:27 GMT
Anything thing classed as a 'working' animal has no vat on its food, dogs, cats and horses are classed as leisure so generally vat is charged,
|
|
|
Post by bizzylizzie on Aug 8, 2011 22:00:08 GMT
No our horse haylage is standard rate as it is packaged and prepared for horses, therefore falls into the same catagory as your can of dog food. Really?? How the hell do HMRC draw the line at what is and isn't VAT rateable. What is to differentiate between haylage for cattle and horses Only Lord VAT knows the answer to that one, it is to do with packaging it and putting it on the market for horses (pets), but we've been told standard rate as we make ours to supply to livery yards and i suppose as we invoice 'Such n Such Livery Yard' it is obvious it is for horses which are pets not cattle which are for food. Anyway the livery businesses are VAT registered and claim it back, so a bit of a pointless exercise to make us jump through some government hoops!
|
|
|
Post by hunter on Aug 8, 2011 22:16:01 GMT
not running ,light touch paper yes seem too have , i can only speak as i find ,i dont know what is happening in other parts of the country only whats happening around me ,and your not the only ones affected by the super markets and general increases , i dont expect any one to be out of pocket on my behalf its obvious were all feeling the pinch and its been very interesting getting the other side of the story ,but as i said i can only speak as i have found and i have been offered heston bales for £90 and was told if its not sold it will be held back till after christmas if need be ! i have now got all my hay in (thank god !} still feel sorry for others around here inc 2 rescue centres god knows what they are going to do Anyway im not going to appologise for my post its been very informative and has made a change from discussing the best colour tweed or moaning about judges !!!lol xxxx
|
|
|
Post by bizzylizzie on Aug 8, 2011 22:19:05 GMT
I think the mark up on hay is probably less than the mark up on most equine products. For example i was thinking of chaff which lots of us use I pay 10.95 for dengie good doer and that is mainly straw which they get probably buy for about £1.50 a bale due to economies of scale. I'm not sure on the mark up for feed i do know it is less than riding clothing and tack for the retailer. I do know the Dengie factory, and what is involved in the growing of lucerne (Alfalfa) which is used in Good Doer and other Dengie products. The machinery to harvest it and cart it up to 25 miles from various farms to the factory is very impressive but very costly. The factory then heats the Lucerne to 600 degrees to dry it and i wouldn't want their fuel bill! The straw is Oat straw which grown specially on contract locally. Oat straw is not very common these days. So basically it is the costs involved in a drying plant push up the production cost of this product above the production cost of hay/haylage. A bale of hay weighs slightly more than a bale of Dengie product yet costs about half the price, but may have a more variable nutiritional value. So good hay at £5 is still a good value gut filler.
|
|
kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
|
Post by kayjayem on Aug 8, 2011 22:27:51 GMT
Anything thing classed as a 'working' animal has no vat on its food, dogs, cats and horses are classed as leisure so generally vat is charged, I realise that so presumably some haylage is called horse haylage otherwise it would be indeterminable as to what species it was for? Seems that it's a marketing faux pas in that case! Put a picture of a cow on the packaging and bingo 20% cheaper! Interestingly on a similar vein there is no vat on rabbit food(could be classed as food source) but there is on Guinea pig food - don't know if that is the case in Peru though(G.Pigs are eaten there )
|
|
|
Post by hunter on Aug 8, 2011 22:34:29 GMT
maybee its time horses were taxed as ''agricultural''
|
|
|
Post by bizzylizzie on Aug 8, 2011 22:34:55 GMT
i have been offered heston bales for £90 and was told if its not sold it will be held back till after christmas if need be ! i have now got all my hay in (thank god !} still feel sorry for others around here inc 2 rescue centres god knows what they are going to do Anyway im not going to appologise for my post its been very informative and has made a change from discussing the best colour tweed or moaning about judges !!!lol xxxx It wasn't the subject matter, it was the tone that offended! I assume when you say Heston you mean a 500kg bale, if so at £90 that works out at the equivalent of £4.50 per conventional bale, assuming you compare to a good weighty 25kg conventional bale. Just to keep you in the picture, in this weeks Farmers Weekly Merchants are buying big bales at £60- £115 per tonne ex farm (depending on area) so the equivalent of £30 - £57.50 for a 500kg Heston size bale, but that doesn't include haulage/ delivery and would be a lorry load not just one bale.
|
|
|
Post by bizzylizzie on Aug 8, 2011 22:40:53 GMT
Anything thing classed as a 'working' animal has no vat on its food, dogs, cats and horses are classed as leisure so generally vat is charged, I realise that so presumably some haylage is called horse haylage otherwise it would be indeterminable as to what species it was for? Seems that it's a marketing faux pas in that case! Put a picture of a cow on the packaging and bingo 20% cheaper! Interestingly on a similar vein there is no vat on rabbit food(could be classed as food source) but there is on Guinea pig food - don't know if that is the case in Peru though(G.Pigs are eaten there ) I'll get me marker pen out on the bales, i'm not that good at art though!!! Yes i think rabbits are classed as food!! Not that i have eaten one since i was a very small child, so the VAT rules probably go way back to the Ark I'm certain i don't want the horse classed as Agricultural though, medicine records, movement books and we would probably lose some our drugs as they have to have had extensive tests done to determine withdrawal periods so that the carcass can go into the food chain when in fact none of my dobbins are going that way!
|
|
wave
Junior Member
Posts: 143
|
Post by wave on Aug 8, 2011 22:54:50 GMT
think this is the time to put up me feet and get me pop corn out
|
|
|
Post by hunter on Aug 8, 2011 23:32:08 GMT
I'm certain i don't want the horse classed as Agricultural though, medicine records, movement books and we would probably lose some our drugs as they have to have had extensive tests done to determine withdrawal periods so that the carcass can go into the food chain when in fact none of my dobbins are going that way!
not sure we dont have these things in place anyway ,do we ??
|
|
|
Post by quackers1995 on Aug 9, 2011 0:17:57 GMT
wow...can tell you aren't a farmer! Fertiliser, Fuel, Hours work, etc? How I wish your supplier reads this and nobody supplies you with any hay, and who will be 'wingeing' then? Fuel costs more, fertiliser costs more and you expect no price increase? Screw your head on straight.
|
|
sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
|
Post by sarahp on Aug 9, 2011 6:17:52 GMT
I'm not up in modern methods, but silage for cattle was made with additives and had a higher water content than haylage, and was normally conserved in clamps on farm. Haylage for horses was cut at a later stage of grass growth and wilted to some extent before baling. Any haylage sold in small bales with pictures of horses on is obviously the latter and not the former, even if it could just as well be eaten by cattle - but far to expensive for any former in his right mind! Much haylage is now made specially for horses.
I'm with bizzielizzie - even at £5 per small bale hay is still the cheapest fibre horse feed about, after grass depending on your circumstances. So always my first port of call, especially as I have a very trustworthy supplier f hay and straw and can rely on his product.
|
|
|
Post by stormyskies on Aug 9, 2011 7:07:17 GMT
How refreshing!
I sat down this morning and groaned when reading the original post. As farmers I fully expected to read 3 pages of horse owners whining and having a pop at farmers for daring to try and break even and make a profit. How unusual to read 3 pages where almost all are in support of farmers.
Before I married my farmer husband I was on a livery yard and thought very much along the lines of greedy farmers. Now I am married to one and running a farm and livery yard with him I was clearly clueless. Long hours, rising costs, government interference, hard labour for little or no profit. I think to truly understand the cost of how much it takes to get a bale of haylage from grass seed to wrapped bale, you need to be on a farm.
The op has made me very cross. However, i think it just boils down to ignorance of what is actually involved in farming.
And no we don't ride a bike, but I imagine neither do you. As do none of the lawyers, doctors, shop keepers, mechanics, etc that I know!
|
|
kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
|
Post by kayjayem on Aug 9, 2011 7:23:32 GMT
I'm not up in modern methods, but silage for cattle was made with additives and had a higher water content than haylage, and was normally conserved in clamps on farm. Haylage for horses was cut at a later stage of grass growth and wilted to some extent before baling. Any haylage sold in small bales with pictures of horses on is obviously the latter and not the former, even if it could just as well be eaten by cattle - but far to expensive for any former in his right mind! Much haylage is now made specially for horses. I'm with bizzielizzie - even at £5 per small bale hay is still the cheapest fibre horse feed about, after grass depending on your circumstances. So always my first port of call, especially as I have a very trustworthy supplier f hay and straw and can rely on his product. The difference between silage and haylage is still the same. We make our own haylage for our own use and also buy some in in large bales. My point was merely that the product inside the wrap is the same depending obviously on how long it has been wilted for and that is not always aimed at what it is fed to. Obviously farmers wouldn't buy small bale haylage but I wonder if the people making hay"for horses" which could be THEORETICALLY used for cattle would be able to not specify which species it is made for then it is up to the client what the feed it to. I know this would make no difference to the farmer who claims the vat back or indeed the vat registered big yards but maybe for the smaller owners they could look to getting non-branded haylage. A similar case in point would be the wood pellets used for bedding. If you specify it is for horse bedding vat 20%, call exactly the same thing fuel VAT 5%
|
|
sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
|
Post by sarahp on Aug 9, 2011 10:42:45 GMT
Well round here there are very very few farmers actually making their living doing proper farming, those that are are usually on bits of land rented from owners who want privacy but have no use for it, and much farming is aimed at horse people like me. The chap I use has sheep, some on his own land but uses outside land too, and makes hay and big bale haylage for his own animals and to sell, not branded but mostly bought by horse people I'm sure. He doesn't have a horse feed business, and also does shavings by the palatt load and straw which he bales himself off the arable farm next door to us (the landowner has retired from his City job).
|
|
|
Post by bigmama on Aug 9, 2011 14:57:56 GMT
funny how sum horse owners moan about the cost of hay yet are willing to pay hundreds of pounds on riding clobber for themselves
|
|
|
Post by workingcob on Aug 9, 2011 15:11:21 GMT
funny how sum horse owners moan about the cost of hay yet are willing to pay hundreds of pounds on riding clobber for themselves Yes, as I said before - some of those denigrating farmers are happy to moan about forage prices but no problem buying bagged feed which the vast majority of leisure ponies really don't need (analyse your haylage - good quality haylage has the same or better energy & protein levels as most bagged feeds and is way more cost effective, not to mention better for your horses), fancy tweed jackets, Patey hats, Ariat boots etc, and drive Oakleys
|
|
|
Post by mf on Aug 9, 2011 15:25:17 GMT
No our horse haylage is standard rate as it is packaged and prepared for horses, therefore falls into the same catagory as your can of dog food. Really?? How the hell do HMRC draw the line at what is and isn't VAT rateable. What is to differentiate between haylage for cattle and horses because horses are classified a 'Leisure activity' and not beasts or agricultural. Therefore this allows councils to charge vast taxes for planning applications for anything deemed 'equestrian' and HMRC vast taxes on any equestrian feed, equipment etc etc The fluffy bunny brigade do not wish to have horses classified along with all the other agricultural animals as they could then enter the human food chain and be transported as cattle, sheep, pigs etc. They would also be liable to the same movements orders/paperwork etc etc. A whole new debate but actually having horses classified as agricultural would bring a whole range of benefits including cheaper carcass removal costs etc etc. The 28 day rule with regards to planning also applies (a cause close to my heart since its my job and I am regularly involved in planning disputes which go on forever and a day). We already have passports and microchipping so could avoid tagging. Feed etc etc would all become vat free and therefore 20% cheaper (or supposedly anyway) Anyway small digression as the original post was about hay/straw etc prices. I am lucky and have a good farmer who charges fair but realistic prices for his hay and straw. I am lucky in that he will as far as he can supply me with what I need for the winter. I have sourced a back up supply in case he runs out which he did last year due to low yield. i think supplies are low as there was no surplus from last year. therefore although there is no shortage currently we don't have the usual overflow from the previous year to cushion us and that is driving up prices. Supply and demand and all that. There will be some who will charge what they can and what the market can stomach. The chap who supplies me has told me he has baled a load of hay for a local chap who is selling it at twice the price of my own farmer. He is no doubt making a killing but he is the exception. The vast majority of farmers are very fair, they work d**ned hard, long hours, crap weather, no social life and no holidays. Costs have gone through the roof, however, wrap, twine, fuel, insurance, fertiliser etc have all gone up. Go and talk to your local farmers and they all go on about the price of string! there are no benefits I can think of to being a farmer except for the ability to not be stuck in a wretched office but that is it! Its not as if you can choose your hours. I don't see why someone should work their backsides off without due recompense and reward just for me to feed my horses. i will pay whatever the going rate is, grin and bear it. If I can't afford it then I must cut down on ponies or work harder myself. farmers don't even get relief on car tax. You need a 4x4 living on a farm but yet again its gone up this year - to £460. No relief if you have to use it to feed the beasts and work your farm. Think how many vehicles a farmer needs, the fuel, the tax, the expense. The equipment to cut and bale hay costs a bomb. Everythings gone up. Insurance by 30% this year. But not my wages of course lol Straw I am told is now £90 a tonne due to the low crop again this year. this is more than grain now I think. we will all have to get inventive, try bedding on newpapers. I have in the past gone round the local offices and collected shredded paper. they have to pay to take it away. I take it for free and have free bedding. Yes its a pain to muck out but its free and cheaper than straw and shavings. My straw bill was £600 last year. Seriously thinking of going back to free paper! There are other ways of making savings. What about (shock horror and will no doubt be shouted down), making our tough little natives live out and not be fed vast amounts? Yes they may lose a bit of weight but this is actually natures way and what was intended - get thin over winter, refatten over summer. It would cut down on lammie next spring). its not essential they be in and pampered. Even tb's will live out well rugged (some studs I know just chuck them all out unrugged). just some thoughts. no doubt many will disagree but that's life
|
|
|
Post by mf on Aug 9, 2011 15:27:07 GMT
funny how sum horse owners moan about the cost of hay yet are willing to pay hundreds of pounds on riding clobber for themselves Yes, as I said before - some of those denigrating farmers are happy to moan about forage prices but no problem buying bagged feed which the vast majority of leisure ponies really don't need have just cautiously said the same at the same time but thought I might get shot lol
|
|
sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
|
Post by sarahp on Aug 9, 2011 16:33:40 GMT
Yes I'm with you both too. I've grown body armour being on here but I'm still working for the welfare of horses and ponies!
My little hairy things all live out all winter, unrugged, get fed hay and slim down ready for next year already. And my old vet, who bred horses and ponies himself, kept his TB show hack broodmares out all winter unrugged saying as long as they have shelter, in his case thick tall hedges, they will be fine. This is Surrey, admittedly, and not Scotland but shelter and plenty of hay/haylage will keep most of them warm and happy.
|
|
|
Post by mikesloft1 on Aug 9, 2011 20:13:36 GMT
A very interesting discussion and I must say I have learned a few things whilst reading your postings. Yep, I do have sympathy with farmers, they do work hard, work long hours and have to deal with a very unpredictable crop i.e. hay. So what is a fair price to pay for a bale of good hay and I mean good? No one wants to pay a good price for a substandard product so quality must have some bearing on cost. An interesting comment was made by amumwithapony in that when all the on costs are added up, profit margin applied and the cost per bale is worked out in say August what changes in December to affect that cost except for maybe fuel to deliver it. It must be true then that demand dictates the price when hay gets short not the original cost to produce it plus profit and this is when the horse owner who cannot buy in bulk due to lack of storage gets out of their pram and has a dig at the farmer.
Please do not have a go at me quackers 1995 and hope all my suppliers deny my horse any feed this Winter, as I am on your side .... honest!
I have, through this thread, learned that a conventional bale of hay is more likely to be priced fairly at £5 - £6 but as a discerning horse owner I will expect it to be good quality. I have always paid that extra for good quality hay anyway and have taken it to be a good investment for my horse’s health! I also agree with the comments about having your hay tested for it's protein levels. You would be surprised how much you could cut down on those expensive bags of concentrates this Winter if you buy good quality hay and pay a fair price for it. There is no replacement for quality bulk in your horse / pony's diet and you might even make some savings after paying a fair price for it. Thanks again for this interesting thread but as I have said before, a bit more tolerance on both sides would probably give more balance to the argument. If nothing else we should now all understand a bit more what is a fair price to pay for a good conventional bale of hay.
|
|
|
Post by Country Bumpkin on Aug 9, 2011 20:25:22 GMT
I/we are farmers. We dont have a great standard of living, we live in a great place with plenty of land though. When the kids ask for PS2's or laptops etc we cant provide them as we dont earn enough money. We own our farm and are very lucky to do so, because the previous generation made enough money to do so. At times we would have liked to have had a son to carry on the family farm. But the reality is we have 2 daughters, and are actually relieved that we dont have to try and keep things going for the next generation. There isnt money to be made in farming. We could sell the famr and the 1200 ewes and leave the kids very comfortably off. This capital has come from our fathers and grand fathers working incredably hard. The idea that farmers are earning big money at the expense of horse owners is ludicrous It certainly doesnt happen here!!!! Yes, we do sell to horse owners, but as horse owners ourselves, we can see it from both sides. Anyone like to guess the price of a ton of fertiliser suitable for grassland Well said getting very fed up of comments re farmers etc. We all work hard mostly 365 days a year 7 days a week, so give us a rest please
|
|
kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
|
Post by kayjayem on Aug 9, 2011 20:33:23 GMT
Last winter my 2 tb's lived out 24/7 with only a lightweight turnout rug(to keep the rain off) and natural shelter. We are in North Yorkshire backing onto moorland at 900ft and our winters are quite hard. They had round bale haylage ad lib and one bale lasted them 10days. At £30-35 per bale(price went up in January) this is only £1.50 - £1.75 per horse per day, bargain!! The very good doer didn't lose an ounce(would have been a bonus if she did) and the more "breedy" on was still in very good condition and wouldn't have looked out of place in a show ring. I realise that I am lucky that I have the room to keep them this way but I'm sure a lot are molly coddled more for the owners peace of mind. Amended to add they had to spend 3 nights in when it the natural water supply froze completely and it was impossible to get water out to them with the tractor due to deep snow drifts. They couldn't wait to get back out.
|
|
|
Post by mf on Aug 9, 2011 20:33:34 GMT
An interesting comment was made by amumwithapony in that when all the on costs are added up, profit margin applied and the cost per bale is worked out in say August what changes in December to affect that cost except for maybe fuel to deliver it. cost from august to december should actually go up a bit I think. Farmers have had to bring in from the fields (instead of selling direct off the field), unload it (by hand for small bales), stack it and store it (barns cost money to keep repaired etc) and then they have to reload it and bring it to you so more time and diesel. I went and got hay/straw for equifest this week and had a good chat with my local chap and prices of everything have gone up. I watched them start unloading several trailers of straw bales and really didn't envy them having stacked and unstacked my own hay in the past!
|
|