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Post by minkara on Oct 22, 2012 19:25:49 GMT
following on from your reply are there no plans in the future regarding grandstand media or /and HOYS
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Post by the showing register on Oct 22, 2012 19:35:31 GMT
Good evening minkara
We have a current working relationship with GM as we are the sponsors and organizers of the TSR / HOYS MasterClass for amateur riders. We hope to continue to do this into the future as it is just getting off the ground and is a great avenue for riders starting out as it is based on training. We are accredited by GM for our members to enter all HOYS pony qualifiers, to affiliate shows to hold pony qualifiers and to register judges to judge HOYS pony Q. Beyond that we do not have any future plans - just to grow a good relationship that will benefit our members.
Wendy
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Post by minkara on Oct 22, 2012 19:43:59 GMT
thank you for your quick response, so you are responsible for allocating all pony qualifiers for HOYS in the future? and what qualifications do you have as a society to enable you to do this? As I understand it you only have one director , are they solely responsible for HOYS qualifier allocation?
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 22, 2012 20:27:42 GMT
When I started, broadly speaking NPS were for plaiteds, most importantly being their registration body and running the stud book, Ponies of Britain were supporting natives and doing education, stud exams etc. and BSPS were for showing show ponies - no WH/SH ponies then. The native breed societies have always been their individual registration bodies and run breed shows, but not general ones. Then the PoB split into showing and welfare arms and NPS, BSPS and P(UK) (ex-PoB for anyone too young to have heard of it!) all run shows for both plaiteds and natives. I'm not really sure I understand your "umbrella" remark Caroline. Now with Olympia, HOYS and RIHS as well as all the societies' Championship shows, maybe it's time for a sort out. I'm pretty much retired from showing except for a few in hand As, so I shall sit back and watch with interest! I do acknowledge of course the huge contribution made over the years by all the societies mentioned above. Catkin - my point about county shows is not so much about locals being able to enter, but the status of the classes having been reduced to just another qualifier instead of something special, and the change in entrants, with those chasing tickets (and judges) all over the country making the prospect daunting to those who do not aspire on whatever grounds to get to Olympia/HOYS. tabbycat - as for RPs - not my thing, but temperament permitting many are talented jumping and dressage ponies - or could be if asked! Another point in favour of the native is that height for height they can carry more weight, so will be more suitable for today's bigger children or parent/child shares than a RP. SarahP, to offer a little more clarity - taken from an NPS 'Review' (Year Book) selected at random the year being 1986 - and quoting:- 'The NPS was formed in 1893 "to encourage the Breeding, Registration and Improvement of Riding Ponies and Mountain & Moorland Ponies and to foster the welfare of Ponies in general.I could continue! Suffice to say that the NPS was highly instrumental in encouraging Affilliated classes for Registered M&M's and Riding Ponies. The Riding Pony Stud Book (which in the late 1970's became the British Riding Pony Stud Book under the stewardship of my late Mother. One of the many duties of the NPS was to handle the distribution of a Grant kindly offered annually from the Horserace Betting Levy Board 'for the benefit of British Mountain and Moorland Ponies. In conjunction with the BHS and the Native Breed Societies, select representitive/s from the NPS formed a liason with Government Officials from MAFF - [now known as DEFRA]. And with due respect to the great work done in improving Welfare for riding schools and trekking centres by the late Mrs Glenda Spooner for her Ponies of Britain Club [P(UK) since the late 1970's] it was the NPS which held the esteemed national Stud Manager's Diploma and Stud Groom's certificate, with extensive training on inspected premises and strict examinations.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 22, 2012 21:52:28 GMT
I stand corrected. That was certainly my perception at the time - and obviously a pure mistake about the stud exams. I did say "broadly speaking". I can remember Mrs Spooner commentating at shows, and the splitting of PoB when she died, her niece taking on the welfare side, now merged into World Horse Welfare.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 23, 2012 5:54:56 GMT
Good morning
Hi again minkara. You have the wrong end of the stick here ! HOYS / Grandstand Media allocate all the qualifying shows TSR have nothing to do with that side of it we only facilitate our members to enter them as everyone that enters a HOYS qualifier for pony classes has a choice of association to join and we are trying to make it far cheaper especially if you only want to go to one or two local to you. Any show can affiliate to TSR for free and hold HOYS pony qualifiers again lowering the cost. Regardless of who the show affilliates to any member of TSR, BSPS, NPS, P(UK) and the relevant breed societies(for M and M classes) can enter. So if the HOYS Q show is say affiliated to the BSPS The Showing Register members can enter and visa versa.
I give an example of how we can help reduce the cost but I must stress that in these examples it is always a good idea to support the breed societies as they are the guardians of the breeds. These rules are not new they are the current HOYS rules and only apply to HOYS Qualifying classes.
Jenny has a Welsh D pony and is a member of the WPCS she can show her pony in HOYS MM Q. She breaks her leg and wants her friend to show it for her the friend is not a member of WPCS but HOYS rules state that the rider as well as the owner must be a member of one of the listed societies and in the case of M and M - if it is a breed society - the same society as the breed of pony.
By becoming an adult member (£15) of TSR the friend can ride the pony and any other exhibitors (of any breed and any other plaited pony) if she is lucky enough to be asked. No doubt as new exhibitors become more specialized they seek out the breed socities as their natural 'home'.
Caroline has made some very interesting historical points about the NPS and how things have changed over the years.
Wendy
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Oct 23, 2012 6:55:20 GMT
i must congratulate the showing register for coming onto the forum and answering all your queries and questions in a very clear and precise manner. it is not often that any association comes on here to answer any question so credit were credit is due.
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Post by thefuture on Oct 23, 2012 8:21:57 GMT
Ah... So we STILL go back to this gripe. (Cefn...)
Hollycane. I cannot answer for all societies but I dont understand how anyone can say that one of the main societies doesn't go back to their members or give them feedback. They have a solid "area" structure (call it franchise if you like).
Head Office feed information and questions to the Area Committees, who, in turn, pass on the same to their members.
Any feedback from area members comes back either via the Area Committees or indeed, as has recently been the case, directly from members to Head Office.
Not everyone will like the outcome of the feedback but the structure is there nonetheless.
That is the way they like to communicate and NOT via a forum
TSR - Do you have, or will you have access to the vast database of competitors and their personal information, held by GM?
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Post by thefuture on Oct 23, 2012 9:09:06 GMT
Tsr is certainly making a play and breaking the monopoly held by the societies for so long. Tsr is also a truly commercial company and Plans look to be a foot for horses to follow suit - were does the leave the mainstream societies? Now is the time for the societies to pull together - remember Hoys hosts the finals on behalf of the associations - they are free at any time to drop the associations Untill now, HOYS has needed the societies to run (in terms of rules etc) the qualifiers - for their benefit. If the M&M workers are anything to go by, left to their own devices, the worker classes will be nothing more than flat classes with a few low level fences. What a crying shame for the competitors but a REAL chance for the societies to put on their own meaningful finals that become the focus of attention.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 23, 2012 9:30:53 GMT
Good morning again !
We are answering your questions via this forum rather than leave people in the dark about what is going on. Anybody can e mail us with a private question or ring for a chat they do not have to come onto HG. However this type of Social Media as long as it is moderated as this thread has been to encourage honest debate can only be a good thing.
We do not and will not have access to the GM database that is the property of GM. We of course will have access to our own databases that they are storing for us.
We agree with thefuture that competative finals at the Society championship shows are vital to add choice and raise standards. Years ago at the BSPS there used to be up to 200 in each worker class but there was only one class per height plus a novice.
Wendy
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 23, 2012 10:14:09 GMT
Wendy - Head above the parapit once again - I'm with 'TheFuture' here. Do you (that is, you as spokesperson on behalf of the new Company for whom you work) offer assurance that this new concept will 'enhance' rather than DILUTE the work of the established Societies? By which I mean both the Showing Societies/Associations AND the various Breed Societies. Because already I see vaguarities and loopholes emerging.
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Oct 23, 2012 10:41:37 GMT
i do feel that people are being harsh here to tsr. in tresponse to thefuture comment i am not griping in fact i was applauding wendyon her reactions to the various comments. the one thing people forget is that GM can choose to drop the societies at any time and run their own thing. the societies do not own the rights to host finals at hoys. at this stage there is no evidence to suggest that the relationship between tsr and GM is nothing more than commercial. the existing societies activities would remain unaffected by any move by GM as they all hold their own champs. yes it may dilute but people are free to choose what they want.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 23, 2012 10:43:29 GMT
Morning Caroline
We have been very interested in you posts on the NPS and the British Riding Pony Stud book as we have identified the ' Show Pony ' as coming under threat as more of the main stream societies major on M and M ponies which are after all generally easier to look after and ride.
I think any new organization coming into any arena can be perceived as a ' threat' to the establishment. Our strongest point is our low cost base enabling us to use modern technology to keep running costs down and passing this on to our members. Everyone has a free choice about how they organize their memberships, affiliations etc and all we are offering is an alternative especially to exhibitors starting out ( riders Championships, MasterClass) or just wanting to attend one or two local HOYS qualifiers. We would expect to raise interest amongst the grass roots and then they would probably migrate to whatever society interested them most.
It is early days but we have lots of very innovative ideas in the pipeline that will benefit all sections of showing and are more than willing to work with any society / individual but we will remain low cost or as in the case of a non showing member, judge or affiliated show actually free.
Wendy
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Post by thefuture on Oct 23, 2012 11:25:30 GMT
Presumably then, TSR are "paying" GM to administer their (TSR's) database and entries. Does this mean therefore, that by "signing up" with TSR, even if it is for free, that GM have permission to USE TSR's database.
Without substantial input financially, I am struggling to understand the concept
Or perhaps there is A N Other
Could you clarify perhaps, if TSR's own championships will be holding HOYS qualifiers and if so, which classes have been applied for
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Post by the showing register on Oct 23, 2012 11:41:38 GMT
Good afternoon the future
Yes TSR is paying Grandstand Media in the normal commercial way for the work involved in taking the entries etc and the storage of the database. However all the TSR Databases are for our own information and for our own use. GM do not have permission to use them in any way and on our web site we have our privacy policy to protect your data as is normal practice.
If you become a member paid or free your data is protected and not given, sold or otherwise imparted to anyone else. We have no intention of sending you e mails selling products etc.
I believe GM offer this as a commercial product and other societies could use their systems if they wished it is not only for TSR.
On an earlier post I gave the information that TSR is privately funded.
best wishes
Wendy
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 23, 2012 11:56:33 GMT
Morning Caroline We have been very interested in you posts on the NPS and the British Riding Pony Stud book as we have identified the ' Show Pony ' as coming under threat as more of the main stream societies major on M and M ponies which are after all generally easier to look after and ride. I think any new organization coming into any arena can be perceived as a ' threat' to the establishment. Our strongest point is our low cost base enabling us to use modern technology to keep running costs down and passing this on to our members. Everyone has a free choice about how they organize their memberships, affiliations etc and all we are offering is an alternative especially to exhibitors starting out ( riders Championships, MasterClass) or just wanting to attend one or two local HOYS qualifiers. We would expect to raise interest amongst the grass roots and then they would probably migrate to whatever society interested them most. It is early days but we have lots of very innovative ideas in the pipeline that will benefit all sections of showing and are more than willing to work with any society / individual but we will remain low cost or as in the case of a non showing member, judge or affiliated show actually free. Wendy Thank you for your quick response. However, call me a traditionalist and fossilise me if you wish, but a shiny new broom will always seem very attractive to the prospective 'customer' as it's automatically assumed that it will sweep cleaner than the old brooms. And, to use another boring cliche, why mend what's not entirely broken. If you have the manpower and the technology why not offer the services to the societies and unite rather than dilute the supply chain as we currently know it. My knowledge of eg: the NPS is not sacrosanct and is there for all to discover. My 'maternally driven' background and upbringing, however, is to respect the various established Societies and work with them if possible. Regarding the "demise of the Show Pony" - whilst I fully agree that sadly, the RP/HP Breeding showing classes cut up badly, there is no shortage of quality ponies in the Ridden Classes. Both sides of the pond. Finally, as a retired (successful) producer of Ridden and In hand animals, both Horses and Ponies, it is a misnoma that 'the Mountain and Moorland pony' is "easier to produce". You only get out what you put in and it is the quality of training and exhibiting that will achieve, no matter what the Breed. From the training and trainers perspective, I'm with your concept of the masterclasses etc. all the way. My personal jury remains out regarding to 'hijacking' other Society's skilled judges though; most have been through a very thorough assessment and probationary regime. Now I'm ducking below the parapit for a wee while. Modified to correct a typo.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 23, 2012 12:07:12 GMT
Thanks Caroline I will probably join you - going for lunch !
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Oct 23, 2012 14:12:44 GMT
surely it is the judges decision as to whether they wish to go onto another panel. Whilst many societies do operate a panel system - they do not own the judges. As many judges are on more than one panel I can not seem any harm with them being on another panel. Some societies will allow automatic appointment if you are on another panel - does the same notion apply to them in terms "hijacking" skilled judges.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 23, 2012 14:30:28 GMT
surely it is the judges decision as to whether they wish to go onto another panel. Whilst many societies do operate a panel system - they do not own the judges. As many judges are on more than one panel I can not seem any harm with them being on another panel. Some societies will allow automatic appointment if you are on another panel - does the same notion apply to them in terms "hijacking" skilled judges. Mr Maguire, it was the pre-assessed, pre- trained skills and experience to which I was refering. A good exchange of knowledge is one thing and, as you correctly say, there is indeed an 'exchange' appointment system which is called upon periodically and has been seen to work well - eg - experienced Riding Pony/Hunter Pony judges from the BSPS onto the NPS Breeding Panel and NPS Mixed M&M/Native Breed Society qualified judges onto the BSPS 'Heritage' M&M panel.
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Post by harajuku on Oct 23, 2012 20:22:31 GMT
Th
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Post by the showing register on Oct 24, 2012 5:47:50 GMT
Good Morning Caroline
I would like to add a bit about judges. We are inviting established and new judges to join our judges register. I understand your comments about highjacking and the amount of time and effort the societies put into maintaining their lists. Years ago it was all much simpler but now things on the cost front have escalated for the societies and judges. One society nearly doubled its fee for judges to join this year which must mean its costs for dealing with the list have risen.
We look at this in a very simple way. It is entirely an individuals decision if they wish to be registered. Once on the register it is for life and does not require renewing every year it is also free. A judge may update their details or apply for further panels at any time during the year and also ask to be removed which would be immediate from the date requested. The list is only available on line and can be downloaded (SAE for post). We will hold an annual conference there is no necessity to attend but we hope to make it vibrant and relevant so judges will want to attend. We will regularly impart updates of interest to judges by e mail and if requested by post. Judges on HOYS horse panels may apply to be on the Plaited Pony panel if they wish. This move is to bring fresh blood and depth of knowledge to the panel.
TSR has a disiplinary procedure in case of complaints which will be fair and transparent to all sides. We only use the HOYS rules plus a few regs for members in our handbook so are less likely to have judges falling foul of the rules as there are very few.
The TSR probationary system is being finalized but will be an in depth assessment and we hope to include an NVQ as this is now available. I would hope that all the societies would see their way to co operating with us and of course we would reciprocate our register with everyone.
best wishes
Wendy
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Post by harajuku on Oct 24, 2012 5:57:32 GMT
What I'm trying to understand is why no one saw this new society coming? And is it just for ponies and m&ms?
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Oct 24, 2012 6:59:34 GMT
well donr tsr for a fresh approach with judging panels and it would appear that an open system is being adopted. though personally i do feel that judges conference should be undertaken every 3 years
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 24, 2012 7:11:47 GMT
Wendy, Good morning and thank you for your prompt reply.
Ref your Judges being on the panel for life (ie. not an annual reinstatement) are you/is TSR going to request CRB checks for Child & Vulnerable adult abuse/proven animal welfare cases?
I notice that the judges application form is not doing so at the present time. That, and other judging discrepancy reasons, is why most Societies 're-register' judges annually.
'twas I who instigated CRB checks (for the above reasons) for the NPS and this initiative has been subsequently adopted by other societies.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 24, 2012 8:53:32 GMT
Good Morning
Thank you for your post Caroline. The points you have raised are relevant and I have passed them on to our legal guy to have a look at our Child Protection Policy and if this is something we should do. I will let you know when he responds.
Harajuku - Our web site has been up since May and we ran the MasterClass selection rounds but it seems that everyone was probably very busy showing and it got missed. TSR is for everyone. Riders with horses can take part in the TSR/HOYS MasterClass pathway and the Rider Championships in July. We will continue to run the debate for more choice of membership when entering HOYS Horse qualifiers.
Back this afternoon !
Wendy
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Post by thefuture on Oct 24, 2012 10:28:25 GMT
Could you clarify perhaps, if TSR's own championships will applying for HOYS qualifiers and if so, which classes have been applied for Though you have replied to most of my answers, I can't find a reply to the above. When you get a chance, could you advise?
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Post by the showing register on Oct 24, 2012 11:29:00 GMT
Dear thefuture
Sorry about that I must have got waylaid. TSR is running two shows one on Bank Holiday Monday 6th May at Olney Grounds Olney just off the M1 / M45 junction. There will be a full schedule of ridden classes for the TSR Rider Championships and a full set of training classes as part of the TSR / HOYS MasterClass Pathway.
The summer gala show is on the 20th and 21st July at Arena UK. This show will host the finals of the TSR Rider Championships, Final of the TSR / HOYS MasterClass and a 2 day in hand / breeding show with classes for everyone this is in conjunction with the Breeders Guide. I cannot help you over HOYS qualifiers as I do not have that information which is not the answer you are looking for ! I would not wish to give out anything inaccurate as I have gone to great lengths to be as concise as possible in my replies. At the moment TSR are searching for interested people for various posts that are available to help run the show.
Caroline - I have an answer regarding the CPP but I have to refer it now for the correct wording but it looks like Judges self certify at the start and then it is up to the Society how often they repeat that exercise.
best wishes
Wendy
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 24, 2012 11:34:08 GMT
Good Morning Thank you for your post Caroline. The points you have raised are relevant and I have passed them on to our legal guy to have a look at our Child Protection Policy and if this is something we should do. I will let you know when he responds. Back this afternoon ! Wendy Wendy, one other question which perhaps your legal guy could look at - that of Judges' Insurance. Currently, a Judge is covered by the Society for whom you are officiating. That could (for example, in my case and by no means is this an isolated situation) be two, three or even four differing Societies per show. Will TSR indemnify it's listed judges? In future, how is a Judge to know under who's rules he/she has been invited, is to work and which Society will accept Insurance liability in the event of a genuine accident? Most invitations from most shows are already - shall we say - economical with information as to under who's rules you are being invited to officiate. In defence of Show Office staff, this is not deliberate, merely naive. Please, I'm not agin the 'concept' of TSR and particularly for the 'grass roots/ new show-goer. But I do feel that there are certain details - teething problems if you wish - which need addressing and full discussion/s taking place with the relevant established Societies concerned.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 24, 2012 11:43:36 GMT
Caroline - I will answer this later as I want to be accurate and you are being most helpful in raising these issues now as we know there was a very bad accident at RWAS this year and it is not something to be taken lightly.
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Post by thelwell on Oct 24, 2012 16:37:58 GMT
You are raising some very good points and questions Caroline and quietly away I for one am getting some answers. Thankyou so much.
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