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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 10:49:56 GMT
I think a perhaps more pressing issue than wilkies in fr/lr classes, is the vicious, unnecessary bits used by adults/teenagers! The amount of large breed classes I have been in/witnessed this season with rider clinging onto mouths, which are encased in double bridles of all shapes and sizes - no two quite the same!
The same goes for whp classes - which are notorious for having some rare sites in. Id love to see the majority of these ponies/horses actually doing a days hunting with jockey still in board!!!
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Post by Newlandwelshies on Jul 15, 2014 11:49:11 GMT
well said karen (garrettponies). Everything seems to be for quick fix these days. The stress of getting these golden tickets, in what ever format, is not only taking the fun out of riding, it is destroying alot of young ponies and young riders along the away. Yes we are competitive, but when that ticket comes, it will be from my daughter's hard work (she works the pony at home and in the collecting ring herself) together with a well schooled pony. Whether that is one year from now or twenty we aim to enjoy it along the way and hopefully with as little aids as possible. But then again it is the societies that say what is and isnt acceptable. They are causing and allowing what is happening in whatever format, full stop..
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Post by Philippa on Jul 15, 2014 12:57:42 GMT
There have been a lot of valid points here. My thoughts, there is a lot more thought goes into bits these days from when I was a child with more understanding of the conformation of the mouth and there are those that bit accordingly to the ponies needs. However, there are many ponies ridden in the mini's that are put in Wilkie types just to achieve the outline with baby ponies rushed to do big qualifiers in their novice years. I may get shot down but so many children are taught to sit pretty with few riding skills involved, I've seen more and more handles used in lead rein just to jam the hands down and keep the outline when some (not all) of the children should probably be capable of trotting without the aid of the handle. My ponies are in French links, have used a Wilkie but as my daughters hands weren't the best, the pony didn't really appreciate it and was tense. Back to the French link, happier pony. So much pressure is put on ponies and children these days to achieve the tickets before they are ready, time and schooling would probably be a better option than trawling round the country spending a fortune on classes and ending up with a pony and child sickened to death ! That's another topic...... It's not just wilkies though, there are so many bits available as a quick fix now. Also agree about nose bands garrotting ponies, I was always taught you should be able to fit two fingers between noseband and nose. They are so tight these days must be so uncomfortable, imagine wearing a pair of jeans two sizes too small!! Well, you wouldn't would you!! Time and schooling people, time and schooling!! I don't disagree at all Karen, Maisie rides in the ring with a handle but then she's 3!!! She isn't strong enough to jam anything anywhere!!! Lol. However at home she is taught without the strap, it's there on the saddle but we do walk work without it and then we start by holding it for our first trot then let go with one hand then the other, we then do lots of bending without it. when I was asked if I wanted her to be a rider or a LR rider I said rider straight away. Sitting pretty is all well and good but when you've got a Doris you need to be a rider!!!! Lol (she has a great seat and fantastic stickability!!!!!)
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 15, 2014 15:17:20 GMT
Thatboythatgirl - I'll happily plead guilty to standing on a soapbox re Wilkies, but as for the rest of your post:- I no longer show or even ride now, too old and crocked, so any ponies I've bred you see out are either sold, lent out or being broken and educated by someone else. And yes, my Ds and daughter's ponies were all ridden in snaffles, as all horses and ponies should be unless for a very good reason otherwise, with the exception of daughter's who was in a kimblewick when the occasion demanded, not all the time, only for hunting and the like, or I put mine in a rugby pelham with stupidly loose leather curb chain and rode her off the snaffle rein only just for showing.
I'm with Karen above all the way! But maybe the children actually learning to ride properly are out doing PC, dressage and jumping instead of showing.
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Post by brindlerainbow on Jul 15, 2014 15:37:34 GMT
Children definately do learn to ride properly at PC and im a great believer in hunting for teaching both children and young horses ( probably not show ponies though!! )to go forward, learn to jump and get themselves balanced. Show ponies are my first love but I wonder how many show jockies could gallop downhill behind hounds, pop over a ditch and rails and still be in the saddle at the end of it . My first grandchild is due early next year and I would be lying if I said I hadn't already thought about a LR show pony!!! It will of course go in a snaffle and will be treated like a show pony from the 80's - not overweight, turned out all day and fed accordingly. Nothing like planning ahead In an ideal world we would have a PC/hunting pony too....
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 15, 2014 16:03:17 GMT
Just buy a native instead and it will do all of that in just one pony! Daughter's Welsh C PC'd, hunted and won top WHP stuff, including going to the first HOYS WHP Final, that one after we sold him with his new owners. I must admit he did find flat showing and dressage boring though! My D dressaged with me and jumped with daughter but I wouldn't let her take her hunting as she was far too precious (D, not daughter!). The young tiny adult who breaks my As takes them hunting, which she loves herself. And the latest 4yo (13.2) she has of mine, just backed, was standing in the sea having gone to the beach last week so they do get a good all round education. As things are now I'd far rather see the ponies I've bred in homes that do all that sort of stuff rather than nothing but plod round a show ring.
Good luck with the grandchild, I have three grandsons, none in the least interested in ponies!
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Post by brindlerainbow on Jul 15, 2014 16:09:36 GMT
LOL I have all these plans but of course he/she may not be interested in ponies!!
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Post by Karen, garrettponies on Jul 15, 2014 17:54:50 GMT
Haha Philippa, Maisie's such a cutie!! Her and Doris make a great pair.
There was a lead rein equitation class at equifest last year where the judge requested shows were done without the aid of a handle, a lot of horrified looking mums!! None of the children were tiny tots though in need of support from one. They all coped but it sorted out the riders from the sitting on pretty ones.
I never let my daughter have a handle as she just used it to pull herself up rather than use her legs!!!!
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Post by volatis on Jul 16, 2014 7:23:15 GMT
Are the hoys qualifiers not run under NPS rules though? No, all HOYS qualifiers are run under HOYS rules
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jul 16, 2014 12:08:20 GMT
Are the hoys qualifiers not run under NPS rules though? No, all HOYS qualifiers are run under HOYS rules Don't do the first ridden!! Was just trying to work out how the bsps statement would after the hoys FR!
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Post by Philippa on Jul 16, 2014 13:08:59 GMT
No, all HOYS qualifiers are run under HOYS rules Don't do the first ridden!! Was just trying to work out how the bsps statement would after the hoys FR! Because when you are doing HOYS classes and also BSPS, NPS, NCPA etc etc, you don't want to be swapping and changing bits if the pony goes better in a bit that is frowned upon by certain societies!!!!!
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jul 16, 2014 13:43:04 GMT
I doubt people wouldn't change bits as you already see it happen between classes now so I actually believe people would still change bridles/bits anyway
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Post by Philippa on Jul 16, 2014 15:47:53 GMT
But I wouldn't change if wilkies weren't under scrutiny!!!!!
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Post by connemaras123 on Jul 16, 2014 17:23:57 GMT
I have to agree with the comment about nosebands on ponies, particularly lr/fr ponies I have noticed it. So tight that they dig in to the nose, I'm guessing its to stop ponies opening their mouths? Hideous and cruel! Tight curb chains are dreadful too.
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Post by kateanne0 on Jul 16, 2014 18:30:28 GMT
But I wouldn't change if wilkies weren't under scrutiny!!!!! Thing is - until BSPS clarify their statement, we DON'T KNOW 100% that it is Wilkies they are talking about!! Maybe the Wilkie as it is designed is ok BUT if some people have then added the facility for a curb chain to be attached then it isn't ok!!! Absolute minefield!! Just read the statement again and it isn't clear and hasn't been updated. Also read the new rules for 2015 and there isn't anything in there about bitting either. Maybe we need to write to BSPS and ask them to absolutely clarify their statement?
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jul 16, 2014 18:44:18 GMT
But I wouldn't change if wilkies weren't under scrutiny!!!!! Thing is - until BSPS clarify their statement, we DON'T KNOW 100% that it is Wilkies they are talking about!! Maybe the Wilkie as it is designed is ok BUT if some people have then added the facility for a curb chain to be attached then it isn't ok!!! Absolute minefield!! Just read the statement again and it isn't clear and hasn't been updated. Also read the new rules for 2015 and there isn't anything in there about bitting either. Maybe we need to write to BSPS and ask them to absolutely clarify their statement? Think it is a working progress bsps are working on... Problem they have I guess is to first decide what they don't like and which classes they will restrict bit choices in. Though I believe it will be the Swales, adapted driving bits and other strong, harsh bits. Everyone has their different views on this. I use a Wilkie on my large m&ms at home and ride in a Pelham/double at shows. A Wilkie isn't a 'harsh' bit in the right hands but then that goes for all bits. I was talking to a few different judges who believe that if the pony is happy it doesn't matter to them what bit the rider uses. Every pony is different. Though I do agree that a true FR/LR ponies priority should be to look after their jockey not to got in an outline...
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Post by mistybear on Jul 16, 2014 21:44:37 GMT
My daughters fr goes in a Wilkie but also in a happy mouth hanging cheek and also a French link he is very fussy in his mouth !! She does local level showing , dressage and the pony club. He is extremely well schooled and she rides from her seat ( well as much as a 9 yr old can !!! ) she certainly does not have the strength to force him into a outline and has to ride him into the bridle to achieve a outline and she has had lessons from some very good dressage trainers who have said the pony has a very balanced rhythmical correct way of going and my daughter very good hands and seat ( as you can see I am very proud of them she works very hard on him) but in a show ring with other ponies around him he can be strong and sometimes will raise his head to evade the contact nothing wrong with him just he knows he can do it !! So the Wilkie helps her to keep control in these situations he does not need it in dressage ( not allowed anyway) and for some reason does not need it at PC What else could she use if the Wilkie is going to have her marked down ( the hanging cheek does not seem to work as well in the showering situation ) thank you x
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Post by jimjim on Jul 17, 2014 6:36:48 GMT
I don't think the Wilkie will or should be marked down. I would continue to use it if it suits your pony.
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Post by kateanne0 on Jul 17, 2014 11:10:24 GMT
BUBBLES 1822 - your comments:
'Think it is a working progress bsps are working on. Though I believe it will be the Swales, adapted driving bits and other strong, harsh bits.' Your comments are on the right track.
The issue of bridles and bits is to be discussed at the next Council Meeting, any members written comments will be taken into consideration at that meeting and thereafter more information will be made available.
I would suggest that anyone with genuine concerns on bits, bridles and nosebands, writes into the BSPS office, so that their comments/concerns can be answered as far as is possible at the moment and then be taken into consideration at the next Council Meeting.
I wrote to the BSPS office today and am pleased to say I had a very quick response.
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Post by cayo on Jul 19, 2014 16:33:32 GMT
The only people with issues are those who dont use them so a bit unfair if they simply listen to the anti wilkie or whatever bit campaigners ,there is huge disagreement over the wilkie as flyde have it under their snaffles section and have always called it a snaffle perhaps ask them why they consider it a snaffle and have it professionally assessed once and for all , personally i dont think its any more a gag than a hanging cheek .
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 19, 2014 19:04:47 GMT
The leverage is different. In a hanging cheek the rein attaches to the end of the bit giving a direct force on the bit, whereas with the wilkie it is fixed lower down on the bit ring so the the bit acts as the fulcrum of a lever to give poll pressure.
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Post by cayo on Jul 20, 2014 8:55:32 GMT
The leverage is different. In a hanging cheek the rein attaches to the end of the bit giving a direct force on the bit, whereas with the wilkie it is fixed lower down on the bit ring so the the bit acts as the fulcrum of a lever to give poll pressure. that is still open to debate the wilkie is still claimed to be a snaffle by its designer and sold as such but i still dont see that there is that the hanging cheek is anymore a simple snaffle than the wilkie .
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Post by rosefinch on Jul 20, 2014 10:58:01 GMT
I think any bit is only as harsh as the hands that it is in!!! Simple. My daughter's pony is so light in the hand but he loves his happy mouth Wilkie. He feels offended if I put a snaffle in. My daughter has lovely quiet hands and she is 9 and competes in fr. As a parent and having a super quiet pony I know that she will always be able to stop and be in control with this bit in. She is my most precious item in the world and safety is paramount
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Post by catkin on Jul 20, 2014 12:20:43 GMT
I have said this before (and I know some of you disagree!) but for me, I would rather have a slightly stronger bit than a child lugging a pony around or having to hang onto it. In an idea world, all ponies would be started properly, all would have very correct mouths and our children would ride correctly. But life isn't like that. Of course, we all try our hardest with all these elements, but we need to be realistic. A 'proper' outline is extremely hard for any child to achieve, not least of all a FR child, because it requires riding a pony up into the bit (with a consistent contact) from a strong leg. Children don't tend to have these - or at least not to begin with. So for me, its a balancing act. I aim for a pony to be forward enough for a child to enjoy and light enough that they can control it. Different ponies need different bits. Different children need different bits. Like some of the other people above, I believe the new BSPS statement to be aimed (well hope it is) at the older children and adults using very strong bitting. I broke a lovely section A we had years ago. Despite a lot of schooling she inclined to the forehand. On presenting her (to a very well known trainer) she suggested that the small children ride her in quite a sharp pelham. Something we hadn't considered. The pony reacted extremely postively - somehow it helped her find her balance (without being lugged around). She went on to be a winner at a very high level in everything from LR to Open WHP. She showjumped, hunted etc. You live and learn!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jul 21, 2014 7:55:06 GMT
Cayo - any engineer will tell you my mechanics is correct. I don't want to get into any dispute but otherwise we're just talking definitions and personalities. I have been back yet again to consult my bitting bible by Elwyn Hartley Edwards to confirm his definition of a snaffle as acting upwards against the corners of the lips, no mention whatsoever of any poll pressure. I then went on to look up the Fillis, or hanging, snaffle brought into use in the 19th C by one of the great horse masters of the day. Where it differs from others is by being suspended in the mouth rather than resting on it, but it has no poll action. It was considered useful for horses who tended to come behind the bit.
Catkin - I entirely agree about the safety of children and using a stronger bit where necessary but I'm trying to work towards your ideal world of one where all ponies are correctly schooled in the first place! It's so much easier to do that than to have to reschool them afterwards to go lightly and correctly. My question to you, as a respected (by me, anyway) trainer and judge is why then do show classes for children not yet tall and experienced enough to ride a pony in a proper outline require the pony to be in one? As far as I can see that is the root of the problem as then short cuts are taken to achieve a false impression? When I've dressage written for PC tests dressage judges are far more sympathetic to very small riders and do not require ponies to be properly on the bit, it's more important for the pony to be light and obedient with a correct bend then where it's head is.
Where did I put my hard hat?
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Post by bubbles1822 on Jul 21, 2014 9:19:59 GMT
i agree as a spectator id much rather see a pony who looks after its jockey than a pony who goes in an outline. that is what they are there to do!!
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Post by brindlerainbow on Jul 21, 2014 12:48:21 GMT
LR & FR jockies are too small and inexperienced due to their age to be able to use enough leg to ride their ponies up into the bridle or to pull it into an outline if it is wearing a bit that has the leverage and poll pressure to be able to do that. Most properly broken and schooled ponies will go into an outline naturally and carry themselves properly without too much effort. It is very rare to see a pony going round consistently with its head on the floor or its head right up in the air. If a LR or FR is carrying itself in a good shape in a simple bit and looking after it's little jockey without waving its head in the air or snatching at the bit or putting in a crafty buck then I would say that is ideal. I did actually just have a look on the BSPS website to see their definition of LR/FR ponies and this is what it says -
Lead rein and first ridden ponies are the very foundation of the ridden showing world, they are the building blocks for the future, and as such great importance should be attributed to their type, manners, way of going, suitability and conformation. Judges should be creating a launch pad for correct training of both pony and rider, looking for a pony and rider that are in harmony and enjoying the class they are competing in.
Catkin I agree that it is better to have a stronger bit than to have the rider pulling on the animals mouth constantly because it is too strong. But I would say that situation is more suited to the hunting field when more brakes are needed or a horse jumping big tracks where precision is vital than a LR/FR class!! And I do agree that different ponies need different bits. What I can't understand is with LR/FR jockies especially the really tiny ones is why they would need a wilkie ( or anything of a similar nature )if they are too small to use the bit effectively especially in LR classes where the handler has control of the pony from the lead rein being attached to the noseband and the rider is really at that age no more than a passenger. Maybe im missing the point somewhere along the line
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Post by Newlandwelshies on Jul 21, 2014 14:27:07 GMT
just thought i would add something i found quite interesting to this thread. My daughter had her birthday last week and was delighted to receive a birthday card from the bsps. Very nice touch and made her day. I didnt take much notice until i took the cards down today. The pictures on the front were made up of a couple of ponies and the main picture was of a lovely palamino in a wilkie... Obviously bsps must consider this an acceptable bit then or surely they would not put a pony with one in as the main picture on the front of their birthday cards...
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Post by rocknroll on Jul 22, 2014 0:24:55 GMT
This is an interesting thread. We seem to be from the same era Brindle Rainbow and I agree with everything you say. When competing in L/R and F/R classes in the pre HOYS days when Peterborough was the mecca we all aimed for, we would not have dreamed of showing in anything other than a small loose ring snaffle or eggbut. Mind you, our ponies were generally of a much different type then and in my opinion eminently more suitable for a young child in the nominated age group for the class. Many of the L/R and F/R ponies competing for their HOYS ticket today look more like undergrown 12.2 SP's and perhaps that has a bearing on how they are bitted.
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Post by catkin on Jul 22, 2014 5:55:31 GMT
Good point Sarah P. I think the point is that (again hard hat) showing classes are not being judged as a stage in a journey to the correct way of going (unless novices), but a snapshot at that particular moment. You are not just judging the way the pony is going, but the overall picture. So, a pony 'on the bit' looks more attractive both in itself and to ride than one that is not. Of course, that outline could well be 'false' or to a degree anyway. Then, you need to consider judge's preferences and what is presented to you on the day. I would rather a pony slightly off the bridle but happily doing it's job than on overbent one for example. Nobody said it was easy!!
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