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Post by oh dear on Oct 14, 2014 7:15:58 GMT
I don't think any one is bragging about money just that that person has a producer for goodness sake! Ms JH has stated that she has produced her own from home and qualified just has not got the time but now has the money to produce. MS JH was responding to a personal attack by another guest! Golly a real nasty lot at times. VITSOL has a good grounded view, each to their own and I have found it cheaper to have ponies produced for the reasons above, but also like my ponies at home but circumstances are the issue! To keep at livery and travel to shows plus my time doing them/paying my yard to do them costs me more than having a producer! Why should my animals not show because I don't have the time !
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Oct 14, 2014 7:59:31 GMT
Another small thought - those using producers are not always very well off, I've met many who struggle to pay the producer bills but have their own reasons for choosing that route. Their money, their animals, their choice.
And I don't think enough is made on here of breeders choosing to showcase their home breds, it's all been about buying something and having it produced without consideration of that situation.
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Post by clifton on Oct 14, 2014 11:26:46 GMT
As a person who has never competed high level and never will, just looking in from the outside. I don't have problem with horses being produced. However, I do think that with qualifiers of any description the person who qualifies the horse should have to ride the horse at the final and if they can't they have to forfeit the class, just the same as if the horse was lame etc. I wonder how many people would have them produced if they only wanted the producer to qualify them and the they turn up at the final to ride, this would not affect the people who would just be happy to be the owner and watch there horses do well.
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Post by Philippa on Oct 14, 2014 12:15:26 GMT
As a person who has never competed high level and never will, just looking in from the outside. I don't have problem with horses being produced. However, I do think that with qualifiers of any description the person who qualifies the horse should have to ride the horse at the final and if they can't they have to forfeit the class, just the same as if the horse was lame etc. I wonder how many people would have them produced if they only wanted the producer to qualify them and the they turn up at the final to ride, this would not affect the people who would just be happy to be the owner and watch there horses do well. But then you are taking away jobs from producers, they couldnt manage on just one or two a season and as some specialise in certain areas they wouldnt have any work!!!!!
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Post by dizzydora on Oct 14, 2014 13:55:39 GMT
As a person who has never competed high level and never will, just looking in from the outside. I don't have problem with horses being produced. However, I do think that with qualifiers of any description the person who qualifies the horse should have to ride the horse at the final and if they can't they have to forfeit the class, just the same as if the horse was lame etc. I wonder how many people would have them produced if they only wanted the producer to qualify them and the they turn up at the final to ride, this would not affect the people who would just be happy to be the owner and watch there horses do well. But then you are taking away jobs from producers, they couldnt manage on just one or two a season and as some specialise in certain areas they wouldnt have any work!!!!! I don't think it would, I think it would help make sure that only the best horses qualify and not have horses through who only qualify because they have a producer on its back. Producers can still produce the horses at home, it just means that whoever is intending on riding it at the final needs to be the one who rides it in the qualifier. There are pro's and cons to everything and its just about weighing it up and coming to a middle ground. Everyone is never going to be happy.
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Post by Ever Thought Maybe on Oct 14, 2014 14:06:55 GMT
I have worked for one of the best producers in the country, fantastic very hardworking team who win at hoys/rish and everywhere else every year and the main client after a very bad accident can not ride and actually struggles to walk sometimes but what an eye for horses she has, She puts all the money in just like everyone else and is always so so grateful for the job that is done for the horses as this is what she loves. I wouldn't say to her you cant be proud as you have not got there yourself as she cannot do the work as much as she wishes she could. And a horse does not qualify just because of who is on its back at all times, I have been there on the yard when people have asked for their horse to be rode in a few qualifiers to get it and they have been told your horse will not qualify with a producer on it backs as not quality enough some took the advice on board, but the ones who would not take no for an answer spent all the money all year to not qualify when at the start of the year they were told this. This year proved at HOYS that no you do not need to be a producer to do well and win there as a lot of home produced people did extremely well and dreams became reality.
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Post by oh dear on Oct 14, 2014 14:19:26 GMT
who is to say the one pony qualified is not the one that has qualified because of the "producer on its back". I am aware of quite a few non pro's who qualify more than one pony so does this apply to them?. Philippa is quite right in my opinion. Why not take out the professionals all togther and have HOYS as an amateur show, now that would please you all. But im sure some one would ride someones in the warm up ring, someone would have a producer brush the horse in the waiting ring, someones mothers uncles grandfather once had a pint with a producers second cousin twice removed whilst shaving the legs of wonderwoman, a producer looked at a horse whilst it was a foal invitro via a scan, a producer happened to fart in the direction of the horse and the judge could tell which horse should win. Now I dont deny that "favors" may well happen but I really wish before accusations are made on a sweeping level some one names and judge and producer who are bed buddies. Fancy setting the ball rolling Dizzydora??
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Post by Ever thought maybe on Oct 14, 2014 15:10:53 GMT
People who are complaining that it should be amateur clearly don't like competition then, going in a qualifier and winning then looking down to see who you have beat they is no better feeling as you've done it got there on your own. It is not designed to be easy is it as if it was any horse would get there so wouldn't be such a special show... hoys will never be only for amateurs so people need to get over that idea quickly, but think about it differently, what about show jumpers they produce horses to top standard too should they be stopped and make the owners ride their own horses too?
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Post by clifton on Oct 14, 2014 15:39:54 GMT
question as I don't know the answer do the top show jumpers qualify horses for the owners to ride at the final ?
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Post by oh dear on Oct 14, 2014 15:43:55 GMT
Good point re show jumpers Ever Thought Maybe. We would never have had most of our Olympic medals if this discussed view was the common opinion. I think the difference is that HP can get to HOYS Olympia etc so when beaten by a pro just cant take it on the chin some times, there is always an alternative reason. You dont see many HP in top class of many other horse sports. However in my area of the country we have HP qualify time and time again year in year out with different ponies and horses,so this does cancel a lot of the "bleeting" for me really.
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Post by Stchi on Oct 14, 2014 16:17:52 GMT
As a person who has never competed high level and never will, just looking in from the outside. I don't have problem with horses being produced. However, I do think that with qualifiers of any description the person who qualifies the horse should have to ride the horse at the final and if they can't they have to forfeit the class, just the same as if the horse was lame etc. I wonder how many people would have them produced if they only wanted the producer to qualify them and the they turn up at the final to ride, this would not affect the people who would just be happy to be the owner and watch there horses do well. Hold your horses skippy.. I've ridden my horse (yes, produced) in qualifiers all season, but due to work commitments I've had to stick a jockey on a few times. Why should I have to forefit something I've worked for, paid for all season, just because I live in the real world and have to work so can't attend every show where I know he has a good judge?!
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Post by VarietySpice on Oct 14, 2014 18:47:15 GMT
I think we need to realise that showing at this level is a lot more accessible than other disciplines and that is partly why it is so popular with amateurs and home-produced riders and horses. To compete in show-jumping or dressage at the HOYS level, or equivalent, you need top-class horse power that costs a fortune, regular professional training for both horse and rider, a vast range of other professional input such as physios/osteos/therapists, and a huge amount of natural skill, athleticism and courage. Whereas with showing, you can bring on an M&M or Coloured pony bought for a price that wouldn't buy one leg of a potential HOYS showjumper, be an average rider or a late-starter, and have a go at qualifiers with very little experience and relatively little expense compared to other disciplines. I think perhaps that in showing we ought to think a bit more about how lucky we are as amateurs and home-produced competitors even to be able to have HOYS, Olympia, the RIHS and the big county shows within our grasp.
There was an attempt to restrict the pony and rider combinations with Olympia, but it failed because of concerns about the impact on people's livelihoods and possible legal challenges. I suppose part of the reasoning behind allowing different combinations at the final in showing is that showing demands less than other disciplines at this level in terms of technical riding skills and in that sense the rider is more easily inter-changeable. I think a requirement for the rider-horse combination to be the same at the final as in the qualifiers would completely change the landscape of showing because there would have to be more emphasis on the production of horse and rider together as a partnership and on rider training. You'd still have some people feeling disadvantaged in relation to others - either because they couldn't afford the time or the money or both.
I think the bottom line is that although the end goal of HOYS may be the same for many of us, we don't all set out from the same starting point, we don't all have the same innate abilities and qualities, the same financial circumstances, the same freedoms and choices, and therefore showing, just as with absolutely everything else in life, is always going to be easier/faster/better/(choose your comparative) for some than for others. The HP/Amateur/Pro thing is simply another variable in the long list of things that mean we each take our own route towards the goal. It's no different from anything in life that is competitive or assessed or something you have to work for - school exams, professional qualifications, job applications, house ownership, the list is endless - there will always be someone who is cleverer, someone who has a private tutor, someone whose dad works for the company, someone who gets a huge inheritance, and someone who has none of those things but gets there anyway. Every life is different; focus on your own goals and stop passing judgement on how other people achieve theirs.
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Post by Rockstar on Oct 14, 2014 19:09:56 GMT
Well said VarietySpice!
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Post by Philippa on Oct 14, 2014 19:25:33 GMT
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Post by comanchediva on Oct 14, 2014 20:19:39 GMT
Varietyspice, thank you. Some sense at last!!
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Post by dizzydora on Oct 14, 2014 21:21:24 GMT
who is to say the one pony qualified is not the one that has qualified because of the "producer on its back". I am aware of quite a few non pro's who qualify more than one pony so does this apply to them?. Philippa is quite right in my opinion. Why not take out the professionals all togther and have HOYS as an amateur show, now that would please you all. But im sure some one would ride someones in the warm up ring, someone would have a producer brush the horse in the waiting ring, someones mothers uncles grandfather once had a pint with a producers second cousin twice removed whilst shaving the legs of wonderwoman, a producer looked at a horse whilst it was a foal invitro via a scan, a producer happened to fart in the direction of the horse and the judge could tell which horse should win. Now I dont deny that "favors" may well happen but I really wish before accusations are made on a sweeping level some one names and judge and producer who are bed buddies. Fancy setting the ball rolling Dizzydora?? No idea what you're on about 'oh dear', have you been on the loopy juice or something??? My post wasn't having a go at anyone or anything and im not against producers or anything like that, and believe it or not, not everyone who comments on threads like this are desperate to get to hoys etc or feel inferior to the professionals. I'm HP and have been to hoys, rihs and have qualified for Olympia this year and in my 27yrs of showing I've had brilliant results and have regularly stood above the pros. If people choose to get their horses produced then that is upto them. You sound more in the know about bed swapping than me so maybe you could start it??!!! Lol
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Post by Oh dear on Oct 15, 2014 7:03:51 GMT
Oh dear Dizzy Dora how disrespectful of you but I shall not rise to pettyness .Do you know me? As you have just got personal in your post and accused me of "bed swapping" I quote: "I think it would help make sure that only the best horses qualify and not have horses through who only qualify because they have a producer on its back." You wrote your view that some horses qualify because they have a "producer on its back" I have no intention of "starting it" as that is not my style and I most certainly would not throw a jab like you have done. You made an accusation about certain qualifications I was merley asking you to quantify which animals " only qualify because they have a producer on its back" and also name the producer and judges??
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Post by bubbles1822 on Oct 15, 2014 7:37:57 GMT
I completely agree with both sides. I'll never have a pony produced unless circumstance come where I couldn't ride God forbid but I do feel most annoyed when the judges favour people rather than ponies and it does happen. I ride an 8 yr old and people have said many times that he would have qualified by now with a pro on his back and part me feels that this is the cause. He has had some amazing wins don't get me wrong and I don't chase the qualifiers so only compete in 5-6 a year with him. I'm selective and if I stand in the top 10 in a hoys class and proud of him! I think that HP people do feel that they are pushed out cause we don't sponser etc but tbh the judges should be the ones that get talked to as they have put the pros up in the first place. Going to hoys this time I felt the standard of qualified animals had reduced and some of the better ponies on the circuit weren't there. (Not taking anything away from the competitors here! )
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Post by dizzydora on Oct 15, 2014 10:28:23 GMT
Oh dear Dizzy Dora how disrespectful of you but I shall not rise to pettyness .Do you know me? As you have just got personal in your post and accused me of "bed swapping" I quote: "I think it would help make sure that only the best horses qualify and not have horses through who only qualify because they have a producer on its back." You wrote your view that some horses qualify because they have a "producer on its back" I have no intention of "starting it" as that is not my style and I most certainly would not throw a jab like you have done. You made an accusation about certain qualifications I was merley asking you to quantify which animals " only qualify because they have a producer on its back" and also name the producer and judges?? I think you need to take a step back and stop reading into things that aren't there and just trying to cause trouble. It doesn't take a genius to work out when you watch some classes and horses/ponies qualify it is clearly because of who is riding them and not because of the animal. I haven't really paid much attention to hoys qualifiers myself this year as I've had my young horses & ponies out and haven't done the qualifiers but I know from over the years it does happen and have seen it happen, and no, I'm not going to name them because quite frankly I cant remember who they were and it really didn't affect me that much to need to remember who they were, and even if I could remember them why would I want to cause trouble in writing a list??? How very silly of you to think that people would actually waste their time doing such a thing. There are many beautiful horses out there who are both with a producer and who are HP who do qualify for hoys etc and quite rightly so, but as I say there are ones who do just qualify because of who is riding them and if you think otherwise then you're only kidding yourself because most people in the showing world will have seen it happen at some point. Anyway, I don't have the time nor the inclination to get into a petty argument with a guest who's clearly trying to cause trouble because believe it or not people can actually put their view across without it being aimed at one particular individual and have an adult discussion about a topic.
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Post by Oh dear on Oct 15, 2014 11:08:13 GMT
Really Dizzydora, how crude of you yet again. "Have you been on the loopy juice or something" " bed swopping" appears to be quite silly attempts at personal comments. If you are not prepared to stand by your clear accusation then dont write the comments, if you do have a back bone then stand by your accusation, simple. "Clearly trying to cause trouble" I dont think my posts have been trouble causing however yours sweetheart have been and quite laughable in their content. As for your comment "why would I want to cause trouble in writing a list??? How very silly of you to think that people would actually waste their time doing such a thing". Like most people in the showing world I do write a list of Judges that like my animals and put them up top or near, do you not? how silly of you. I also write my personal view of any reason I will not go under a judge also,do you not? how very silly and a waste of your money if you dont. Back to OP Variety of Spice what a perfect summery, you have hit the nail right on the head!
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Post by dizzydora on Oct 15, 2014 12:20:56 GMT
Really Dizzydora, how crude of you yet again. "Have you been on the loopy juice or something" " bed swopping" appears to be quite silly attempts at personal comments. If you are not prepared to stand by your clear accusation then dont write the comments, if you do have a back bone then stand by your accusation, simple. "Clearly trying to cause trouble" I dont think my posts have been trouble causing however yours sweetheart have been and quite laughable in their content. As for your comment "why would I want to cause trouble in writing a list??? How very silly of you to think that people would actually waste their time doing such a thing". Like most people in the showing world I do write a list of Judges that like my animals and put them up top or near, do you not? how silly of you. I also write my personal view of any reason I will not go under a judge also,do you not? how very silly and a waste of your money if you dont. Back to OP Variety of Spice what a perfect summery, you have hit the nail right on the head! Hang on a minute 'Oh Dear', you were the one who insinuated that 'bed swapping' took place, NOT ME!!! All sorts of favours go on in the horse world so for you to say that it comes down to bed swapping to me says that you know something that we all don't! Why would I write a list about judges of classes that I'm not involved in or what horses were involved??? It has no bearing or relevance to me what happens in a different section to what I compete in. And YES I do have a list of judges of whom I have competed under as to whether to avoid or not and that is information relevant to me. Writing a list and putting it on a forum like you suggested of judges, producers and horses of whom may come into the category as to have been seen to be doing favours is indeed a very silly suggestion and one made only to try cause trouble. And as for 'having a back bone' as you put it, I am standing by what I have said. I wasn't the one accusing people of bed swapping, YOU said that, and as for making things personal...weren't you the one who quoted my general comment on this thread making it personal to me? YOU chose to make it personal by quoting my comment so if you don't like people commenting back on something you started making personal, don't do it in the first place. Anyway guest, if you care to continue having a snipe at me for reasons better known to yourself, make yourself a member and PM me because I'm sure other members on here don't want to be reading pointless sniping posts, nor do I. PS. how can something be personal against someone hiding behind a guest name who's identity is anonymous??
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Post by Philippa on Oct 15, 2014 12:50:37 GMT
Think enough has been said on the matter now.
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Post by oh dear on Oct 15, 2014 12:56:03 GMT
Please quote where I use the term bed swapping? Not a word in my choice of language unfortunatley and I have no evidence to support that so would not make the claim. Now calm down dear! You like others appear to not be able to stand behind your own words you made a clear accusation and I find it amusing that you must look like a swan right at this moment with all your feathers puffed up and little legs kicking in a tantrum. Any way must bow out now as I am going to work, I have a producer and a couple of horses to support you know! Just hope Ive got the right producer who just needs to sit and be seen on my boys!
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Post by dizzydora on Oct 15, 2014 13:11:55 GMT
Please quote where I use the term bed swapping? Not a word in my choice of language unfortunatley and I have no evidence to support that so would not make the claim. Now calm down dear! You like others appear to not be able to stand behind your own words you made a clear accusation and I find it amusing that you must look like a swan right at this moment with all your feathers puffed up and little legs kicking in a tantrum. Any way must bow out now as I am going to work, I have a producer and a couple of horses to support you know! Just hope Ive got the right producer who just needs to sit and be seen on my boys! "Now I dont deny that "favors" may well happen but I really wish before accusations are made on a sweeping level some one names and judge and producer who are bed buddies. Fancy setting the ball rolling Dizzydora??" Ok so I got it wrong that you initially didn't use the term 'bed swapping', it was infact 'bed buddies', then in the next post you accused me of accusing you of 'bed swapping' and that was the first mention of that term which was used by YOU not ME. A swan with feathers puffed up hey...hang on, just checked and no I definitely don't have any feathers and nope my legs definitely aren't kicking in a tantrum, feet are firmly on the ground. Yes now you trot along now oh 'dear' and get earning those pennies to pay for your producer and horses, I've got work to do to support my 8 horses and no producer. Bye
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Post by Philippa on Oct 15, 2014 13:21:38 GMT
Come on folks or this will end up locked. It's just going round in pointless circles now.
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Post by Oh Dear on Oct 15, 2014 13:47:12 GMT
Thank you for your apology I will graciously take it on board. Sorry Philippa I wont post on this again
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Post by happy days on Oct 15, 2014 18:22:43 GMT
Brilliant thread. Well done oh dear putting dizzydora in her place . I agree that there are all sorts of reasons peeps use producer and don't. But no one has the right to criticise any one for there choice. I think if I had the money I would use a producer but given the choice between doing 9 horses or a producer I no what I would pick simply because I could not afford the fee for that amount but then could not do that amount on my own as could not do them all justice. Not all judges are corrupt and pick the rider over what they are on. Far from it most are honest truthful people but if it makes you feel better that that is why you have not won then use that excuse its no skin off my bones and most of the others on here.
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Post by catkin on Oct 16, 2014 8:21:27 GMT
Some very good points have already been made. My take on this is that showing is a sport where the animal is being judged - not the rider (ignoring bias arguments towards certain riders). So, frankly people can jockey their animal with whoever best suits them on the day. Simple as that really. Nothing, surely, replaces the satisfaction of having bred/spotted a horse/pony, produced it and ridden it yourself to success. I think this is something we all aspire to. But life (and good sense) sometimes get in the way of this and why should we penalise or judge those that do things differently? I have used all these methods in the past for myself and my daughter (except jockeying something to qualify it for us to ride). Each has its merits including being part of a professionally produced team which can offer a fantastically supportive, stress free and fun environment from which to compete (it is supposed to be fun)! Nothing really beats the ones I have done myself. But, I am a realist!!! Let's just try to concentrate on having fun, making sure our sport is as excellent and fair as it possibly can be (probably a whole different debate) and supporting any animals that deserve to win, regardless of how they got there.
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Post by hs on Oct 18, 2014 22:40:42 GMT
Personally I think as long as the person enjoys their HOYS experience, it does not matter if they have home produced the horse or if they only see the horse once a year and that is when they ride in the final. It is within the rules so they are not cheating so why the big fuss?
As we are all different it not possible to say the HP person feels more joy at riding at HOYS than the person who only sits on the horse or pony at the finals or the producers who is riding for someone else.
Showing is very different to eventing, dressage and SJ as the rider can only ride one horse per class because of the go round element. This would make it very hard for some professionals to make a living if they did not have some owners who were also willing to ride at finals. In the other equine sports a professional could compete several horses in the same class so they don't need to have some owners who ride to make money.
I have a pony that if produced probably would qualify for HOYS {two producers have offered!} there is no way I could qualify him myself I am far too lazy and inexperienced and am not that interested in showing so it would be boring for me as well going to loads of qualifiers. If something really bad happened and I could not ride and care for my pony and I had the money I might be tempted to send him to a producer but as long as I am able to care and ride for himself I think I get more fun just hacking out and doing a bit of dressage and SJ BUT that is just me and who am I to judge what makes others happy as we are not all the same and if no animals or people get hurt and you are competing within the rules then does not matter what route you get to HOYS or who rides what and I hope everyone enjoyed their day, if they did not then it may be time to find another activity that is more fun esp if you are an amateur and not doing it as job.
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Post by gillwales on Oct 19, 2014 2:33:19 GMT
well said hs
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