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Post by bigmama on Apr 2, 2016 20:49:34 GMT
Janet, yes, your name/who you are more often than not does have to mean something, pinkypie2's post immediately above is not uncommon :/
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Post by chloesmum on Apr 3, 2016 8:45:06 GMT
Totally agree with pinkypie2 post, I beleive PP rules are unworkable and will always cause complaints. When the classes first started we had a pony that was totally home produced but could not do classes as Chloe was fortunate enough to pick up a ride for a producer, I am not moaning as the benefits for her in doing that were worth forgoing PP classes. However at the same time there was a family who are VERY well known and were and still are major sponsors. Lovely family and they put a lot into showing, however they have their own beautiful premises and also employed a full time groom who worked solely for them doing their ponies so they were eligible! Have to say after the first season they never did PP again although within the rules they could. So I guess it is all about your own integrity and really thinking about what the PP classes are about and who they are aiming for. I feel they should be more 'restricted' in other words for people who do not qualify in the Open classes therefore encouraging new people, home produced, DIY but have no idea how you could word that! Many years ago there was a suggestion that if you qualified in both Open and PP you had to forfeit one but I guess that means that a ticket could be lost which is unfair.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 3, 2016 9:07:11 GMT
We qualified in the open and the pp last year why should we have to pick between the 2; that's unfair on the HP who achieve an open ticket against the pro where is that in promoting the sport of oh you just have your own class you can't hack it with the big boys.
I see the PP as more of a chance of getting at place at RIHS
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Post by catkin on Apr 3, 2016 9:12:38 GMT
I have said this before and am going to risk repeating it! I do not believe the PP rules are enforecable. JanetB makes very good points on this. Its about integrity and however many times you publish rules, some (a rare few) will knowingly break the rules. I also don't really agree with some of the ruling. How is it that a child can have a pony at home, or maybe not even own their own pony due to financial considerations, be lucky enough to ride, lets say cousins hand me down, old ponies and yet, because they may have done one lead rein class for a producer, they are exempted? I genuinely believe that the way forward is by following the rules of other disciplines, in other words, use rankings and leagues better, for example novice, intermediate and open. Much better for animal training and welfare too. I genuinely believe that home produced ponies CAN and DO achieve at the highest level. I have done it! Its extremely hard work, requires much dedication and often takes you a lot longer than it would a producer who does the job full time. With the league situation you could choose your 'level', excel at it and then move on up to the next one - or not, depending on your requriements/ambitions. Actually, the NPS have made a good start at this with the Picton etc.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Apr 3, 2016 9:34:04 GMT
I long ago came to the conclusion that it's impossible to write rules for HP classes that can cover all possible scenarios while being fair to all. I'm another SE resident, and second chloesmum's remarks above re DIY livery. In our personal case I could go further - my daughter lives half an hour's drive away from me and works long hours, often with international travel thrown in so DIY is not an option. When she had her big horse he lived on a normal (nothing to do with showing) livery yard with facilities for riding in the dark where he could be looked after when she was away, and mucking out etc done for her. She did all riding, schooling, trimming and turning out, along with overseeing what he was fed so nothing the yard staff did for him had any impact whatsoever on his showing. But she would not be allowed in HP classes under anybody's rules I don't think, I'm sure someone on here will know, even though she did everything that mattered herself.
At risk of diverting the thread, the league/ranking model also gives a useful structure for ponies too, not everyone agrees in them going straight into opens as 4yos.
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Post by bigmama on Apr 3, 2016 10:33:33 GMT
The league idea is an excellent one, particularly for young ponies but would people be happy with that unless each league ranking carried an RI/Hoys qualification with it? This day and age, it is the golden ticket people are desperate for
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Post by chloesmum on Apr 3, 2016 11:40:17 GMT
thatboythatgirl I am certainly not suggesting that HP 'can't hack it with the big boys' - quite the opposite as you said you qualified in both open and PP. I believe that one of the Show Pony winners was also PP as well, that is my point many do qualify in both classes, no reason why they shouldn't. I just think the rules are complicated and do exempt a lot of genuine HP people for various reasons and as I have previously said like catkin I believe they are not enforceable. League idea - Intermediate (like NPS) or Restricted I feel gives more people a chance to compete at RIHS which I always thought was the principle behind PP - to give people who wouldn't qualify otherwise an opportunity to compete at this show. ''
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Apr 3, 2016 12:18:11 GMT
This grumpy old woman wonders why RI/HOYS are the only thing anybody cares about nowadays? The various showing societies all have their own Championship shows for finals of the qualifying competitions they run.
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Post by the showing register on Apr 3, 2016 13:30:00 GMT
I long ago came to the conclusion that it's impossible to write rules for HP classes that can cover all possible scenarios while being fair to all. I'm another SE resident, and second chloesmum's remarks above re DIY livery. In our personal case I could go further - my daughter lives half an hour's drive away from me and works long hours, often with international travel thrown in so DIY is not an option. When she had her big horse he lived on a normal (nothing to do with showing) livery yard with facilities for riding in the dark where he could be looked after when she was away, and mucking out etc done for her. She did all riding, schooling, trimming and turning out, along with overseeing what he was fed so nothing the yard staff did for him had any impact whatsoever on his showing. But she would not be allowed in HP classes under anybody's rules I don't think, I'm sure someone on here will know, even though she did everything that mattered herself. At risk of diverting the thread, the league/ranking model also gives a useful structure for ponies too, not everyone agrees in them going straight into opens as 4yos. TSR Amateur rules allow DIY and through the Masterclass training pathway you can ride in the Masterclass at HOYS and recieve lots of help and support. 12 riders who have come through the pathway in the past 3 years have gone on to qualify and be placed at HOYS in the open classes. If we cut out DIY we would not be helping riders climb the ladder as you need considerable resources to own your own land etc.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 3, 2016 18:23:20 GMT
This grumpy old woman wonders why RI/HOYS are the only thing anybody cares about nowadays? The various showing societies all have their own Championship shows for finals of the qualifying competitions they run. We try and support our local agricultural shows that hold bsps classes purely because the middle ground shows are dying out because of RIHS/HOYS obsession; We do the qualifiers because the ponies good enough; we have no intrest in bsps champs due to the sheer cost; we go to Equifest for value for money. Our 12shp wasn't upto HOYS RIHS standard but we still do the same shows with our 133shp and 14shp as we did with him to support them. BSPS has to many cliques and I don't enjoy as if your not in the loop your made very much to feel like the outsider and never felt particularly welcoming
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Post by catkin on Apr 3, 2016 18:36:18 GMT
Don't give up on BSPS etc. Our Area is extremely welcoming to all. We have a lot of people who start out in showing through Area friendships, tuition etc and then go on to do extremely well.
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Post by chloesmum on Apr 4, 2016 8:26:18 GMT
Not sure what area you are in thatboythatgirl and sorry you feel BSPS is cliquey. I would echo catkin our Area is very small and I think very friendly and encouraging, hence wanting to still ensure DIY included in PP criteria. We offered all our members a free clinic this year and held a great Christmas party for all our junior (and not so junior members!) When we started out you could not have been more home produced and dare I say it amateur about showing, our roots were in Pony Club and mounted games but through going to some local BSPS shows we met some wonderful people who helped and encouraged us. I know times change and I don't think social media helps sometimes with facebook arguments etc but I can honestly say whilst everyone was competitive and classes were huge in those days we still had fun and we made friends all over the country and I still miss our plaited days. I steward at the Summer Champs every year to try and keep in touch, I don't know many of the younger members now but everyone is always so friendly, I love it. To be honest I found the M&M world far more 'cliquey' when we went down that route and felt a bit of an outsider but again through talking to people and learning from others we have made some great friends. By the way you can join any Area you want! Most areas also really welcome any help - stewarding etc and often that can be a great way to get to know people. Hope you have a happy and fun season.
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Post by mcnaughty on Apr 4, 2016 16:15:50 GMT
"Home-Produced" and Pretty Polly rules could be VERY simple:
1. Horse/pony to have been continuously stabled at the owner's home since 1st January of that year (I hear the DIY livery peeps groaning now!)
2. Horse/pony never to have been ridden, handled, led, trained or transported by a professional since 1st Jan; same rules for lead rein leader (although the ridden and handled bit might offend some!)
3. Rider not to have ridden or led for or been led by a professional/producer/trainer and/or ridden a professionally produced pony since 1st Jan
Yes, it is a competitor's responsibility to report any obvious rule-breakers to the show secretary on show day LOL - its not groaning but exclaiming from this direction. Not all of us have our own land! It is purely my daughter and I that do all the work. I know plenty of people with their own land who have lots and lots more help than I ever do from family members as I said in my original post. Why would you not think you have an advantage if your ponies are stabled literally on your doorstep over someone who has to work full time 7 days a week and stable said pony 20 minutes away. If you are doing PP you should be made to put the address your pony is stabled at and then it would be up to the secretary to check is DIY or a professional yard! In any case I cannot see what difference it would make if I moved our pony to a 5 day livery yard. They would only be doing to basics of mucking out, rugging, turning out, bringing in etc while I am at work. If anyone calls that production then all family members of land owners should be barred from mucking out for the person who is riding the pony!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Apr 4, 2016 17:03:49 GMT
As I said above, impossible to write rules fair to all. I have land here and when daughter was young we did qualify for HP, not that we did much, but when she moved out and away she had to use a livery yard, no option for her. When she and her ponies were based at home there was only ever she and I doing the work. I was just using us as an example system for rule application.
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Post by bigmama on Apr 5, 2016 8:52:26 GMT
"Home-Produced" and Pretty Polly rules could be VERY simple:
1. Horse/pony to have been continuously stabled at the owner's home since 1st January of that year (I hear the DIY livery peeps groaning now!)
2. Horse/pony never to have been ridden, handled, led, trained or transported by a professional since 1st Jan; same rules for lead rein leader (although the ridden and handled bit might offend some!)
3. Rider not to have ridden or led for or been led by a professional/producer/trainer and/or ridden a professionally produced pony since 1st Jan
Yes, it is a competitor's responsibility to report any obvious rule-breakers to the show secretary on show day LOL - its not groaning but exclaiming from this direction. Not all of us have our own land! It is purely my daughter and I that do all the work. I know plenty of people with their own land who have lots and lots more help than I ever do from family members as I said in my original post. Why would you not think you have an advantage if your ponies are stabled literally on your doorstep over someone who has to work full time 7 days a week and stable said pony 20 minutes away. If you are doing PP you should be made to put the address your pony is stabled at and then it would be up to the secretary to check is DIY or a professional yard! In any case I cannot see what difference it would make if I moved our pony to a 5 day livery yard. They would only be doing to basics of mucking out, rugging, turning out, bringing in etc while I am at work. If anyone calls that production then all family members of land owners should be barred from mucking out for the person who is riding the pony! I see your point, mcnaughty but from experience, there is more likelihood of a DIY-er getting help from yard owner, other DIY-ers on same yard and/or visiting trainers, in other words, persons making a living from horses than a person whose animals are stables at home and never get a sniff of such. The only people to ever touch our ponies is me, my husband and my daughter which is well within Pretty Polly rules!
Good luck to all genuinely home-produced combinations this year, DIY-ers and from home-ers, may you all shine through in the Pretty Polly AND Open classes
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Post by mcnaughty on Apr 7, 2016 12:02:16 GMT
LOL - its not groaning but exclaiming from this direction. Not all of us have our own land! It is purely my daughter and I that do all the work. I know plenty of people with their own land who have lots and lots more help than I ever do from family members as I said in my original post. Why would you not think you have an advantage if your ponies are stabled literally on your doorstep over someone who has to work full time 7 days a week and stable said pony 20 minutes away. If you are doing PP you should be made to put the address your pony is stabled at and then it would be up to the secretary to check is DIY or a professional yard! In any case I cannot see what difference it would make if I moved our pony to a 5 day livery yard. They would only be doing to basics of mucking out, rugging, turning out, bringing in etc while I am at work. If anyone calls that production then all family members of land owners should be barred from mucking out for the person who is riding the pony! I see your point, mcnaughty but from experience, there is more likelihood of a DIY-er getting help from yard owner, other DIY-ers on same yard and/or visiting trainers, in other words, persons making a living from horses than a person whose animals are stables at home and never get a sniff of such. The only people to ever touch our ponies is me, my husband and my daughter which is well within Pretty Polly rules!
Good luck to all genuinely home-produced combinations this year, DIY-ers and from home-ers, may you all shine through in the Pretty Polly AND Open classes I do agree but .... it would also be a lot harder to hide assistance on a DIY yard. A professional visiting private land is quite the opposite ... Yes, lets keep it clean and fair this year and best of luck to everyone keeping to the rules ;-)
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Post by im not bitter on Apr 8, 2016 14:09:55 GMT
Rules have already been broken really and a place to the RIHS lost to a real HP which is sad to the second place person who was an honest HP. Shocking that that could happen at such a big show in plain sight and no one place an objection. I do not compete in the class as I have Workers but it was so in your face! Good luck to everyone who is competing in the classes and I hope the rest of the year is kept clean of cheats
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Post by kateanne0 on Apr 8, 2016 15:22:04 GMT
Rules have already been broken really and a place to the RIHS lost to a real HP which is sad to the second place person who was an honest HP. Shocking that that could happen at such a big show in plain sight and no one place an objection. I do not compete in the class as I have Workers but it was so in your face! Good luck to everyone who is competing in the classes and I hope the rest of the year is kept clean of cheats The HP owners need to make this known to the show organisers! If people don't speak up at an obvious injustice it will go on forever.........and ever............... Yes, it's hard to speak up and maybe get noticed and noted for the right but wrong reasons in other peoples eyes. I'm afraid the names will nearly always win out but unless the HP/DIY ers get a voice it will continue
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 8, 2016 15:43:44 GMT
I couldn't tell you who's legit and who's not in the HP... who knows how many wannabe producers there out there you don't know if they are HP or not
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ta
Junior Member
Posts: 153
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Post by ta on Apr 10, 2016 5:23:16 GMT
I applaud BSPS for introducing the "immediate" family rule to prevent rider swapping, it's not home produced, ie YOUR hard work if its not your pony. I think there should be a separate entry form or a separate column where you state " relationship to owner", this would remind or make people aware, they also have to sign that entry form. BSPS need to make more of a statement on rule changes, they are now emailing news and social media gets almost everyone's attention, they need to use these tools.
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Post by Not so simple on Apr 10, 2016 7:30:34 GMT
I applaud BSPS for introducing the "immediate" family rule to prevent rider swapping, it's not home produced, ie YOUR hard work if its not your pony. I think there should be a separate entry form or a separate column where you state " relationship to owner", this would remind or make people aware, they also have to sign that entry form. BSPS need to make more of a statement on rule changes, they are now emailing news and social media gets almost everyone's attention, they need to use these tools. I do our horses/ponies when I get home from work, We don't have a school just a field and have broken our 14shp ourselves at home; I don't finish working ponies till 9pm some nights after getting home from work. I live at the same house as the jockey and all her siblings. We couldn't get much more HP Yet that one rule; rules us out because I'm her aunty? So it's really not that fair it doesn't take into account difficult family situations. I live in a house with my niece; her grandparents and her legal guardian but the pony belongs to me.
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Agree with not so simple
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Post by Agree with not so simple on Apr 11, 2016 14:23:53 GMT
I have to agree with the above post.
I work full time and after work I help out a lady who breeds welsh cobs. I do this every day but don't get paid for it (still cheaper than having my own pony). We do a fair amount of competing, both in hand and under saddle and we are completely home produced, yet I'm not eligible to compete in any HP classes as we are not related. They are not my welsh cobs, but I am the one in the ring with them and I do all the preparation & practise. I have a full time day job, this is just my hobby and I enjoy it, but it would be nice to have an extra class to aim for.
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Post by garnet on Apr 13, 2016 20:43:23 GMT
Rock on David !!!!!! its very easy to hide behind made up names, anyone with genuine grievance should be proud to post under their own name.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 13, 2016 20:53:29 GMT
By your own admission you lead the pony for a friend by the new immediate family rule that would make the combination not eligible regardless of whether you lead ponies for a producers last season or not
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Post by Philippa on Apr 13, 2016 21:04:13 GMT
By your own admission you lead the pony for a friend by the new immediate family rule that would make the combination not eligible regardless of whether you lead ponies for a producers last season or not Forgive my ignorance as I haven't studied the PP rules as I only did one class last year and as I do my own ponies completely myself & lead them myself with my daughter riding I know I fall into the right category for the class but my question to your last post is this:- Is it just in the actual PP class that this guy couldn't lead the pony?? The only reason I ask is because on the who's qualified site she is pictured being led by her owner? I may be mistaken so as I said, excuse my ignorance.
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Post by Philippa on Apr 13, 2016 21:05:21 GMT
Hi Please let it be known I was not leading for my friend in the home produced Pretty Polly class. Regards David We cross posted David. I thought that was the case. By the way, she is a stunning pony regardless of who is leading her.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 13, 2016 21:05:31 GMT
Oh right ok; I don't who you are or the pony is I'm a plaited pony person
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Post by pinkypie on Apr 14, 2016 15:36:07 GMT
Philippa - sorry don't know how to link to your post but - the PP rules aren't too difficult. You can view them on-line - there are 6 of them..............6 little rules that have the potential to do more damage than if Donald Trump was elected the American President. The problem is that they can be mis-interpreted, or adapted to fit just about any scenario.
David above didn't lead the pony although under the new 'immediate family' rules, he certainly could have - all he would have to do is co-habit with the owner for one night to fulfil that requirement. Forgive me David - I know nothing about you, I am just using you as an example. The immediate family criteria is just ludicrous - everyone but the kitchen sink seems to be able to lead the pony unless you fall under the blood relative conundrum and I have huge sympathy with those affected. You can have a brother-in-law or a partner of one week or a step grandmother but not an aunt who is a blood relative. It is just insane and I never cease to be amazed at just how contentious this class is every year.
It might be time better spent lobbying BSPS to re-consider the immediate family issue and in the meantime ring them if you believe there has been a wrong-doing. I think that is a more positive way forward and perhaps bring about some practical change. Without sounding provocative - what happened to the child only being allowed to ride one other pony rule - has that been replace by the immediate family rule? You have to laugh I think - it really is a farce.
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Post by forester on Apr 19, 2016 14:42:01 GMT
This happened at the weekend someone misunderstood the rules won the class (I was 2nd on joint marks) they have now been disqualified feel for them but also gutted I didn't get the winning in the ring but the person has had the decency to pm me and apologise
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Post by alm701 on Apr 19, 2016 16:19:41 GMT
Rhi, then, did this get passed down to you? x
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