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Post by Rife on Sept 25, 2018 11:23:52 GMT
Also i dont think anyone is standing by, it is raised at meeting i know cause i was there, it is not a offence that can be sorted by 1 person ie JMB but it has to be by societies GillWales , i find lots of your input very helpful and knowledgeable , but in this case i find your tone rather aggressive and condescending , maybe its just me it's not just you Sallie!
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Post by sallie on Sept 25, 2018 12:26:18 GMT
Thank you for that info C.N, but what a great initiative idea it was, maybe something along those line for dope testing
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Post by gillwales on Sept 26, 2018 8:37:31 GMT
Gillwales you cant go and put your money down and ask for a dope test - it has to be done by the societies, as not every show has a dope testing box and a vet on stand by just in case If you have seen or have beliefs that a pony is doped then you can make an objection, it is in nearly every schedule. You go to the Secretary with your objections in writing with the deposit; which will be returned if your objection is upheld. Most big shows have a Vet on call.
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Post by notthatsimple on Sept 26, 2018 10:38:05 GMT
If you have seen or have beliefs that a pony is doped then you can make an objection, it is in nearly every schedule. You go to the Secretary with your objections in writing with the deposit; which will be returned if your objection is upheld. Most big shows have a Vet on call.
HMM dont think its that simple as there is a correct Kit that comes from the testing labs, as there are certain protocols to adhere to , ie Dope Testing Box, vet with correct kit as 2 samples have to be taken and you nominate which sample you want sent and the other is stored in case you want a re test, so you cant just rock up at a show and ask the vet to dope test a pony as it all has to be done to FEI Standards, but no doubt Gillwales you will shoot down again
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Post by chelseah01 on Sept 26, 2018 11:22:40 GMT
Ok people, let’s stay focused here…
Certain people seem to want to close this important discussion down, let’s not allow this to happen.
Continue to add your thoughts, as a member or as a guest, however you feel most comfortable, we know TSR are listening and are proactive in tackling issues.
I personally have been to our society and made a complaint about doping and, although I was listened to, nothing happened.
I don’t know how we get this problem looked at but doing nothing won’t change anything, I for one would love to hear other people’s thoughts on this.
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Post by Until this happens on Sept 26, 2018 12:08:10 GMT
Ok my thoughts 1. Doping and not just with the likes of Bute / ACP needs to be openly acknowledged by All societies 2. Id like to see all major societies pulling together to agree a common testing standard 3. If additional funding for more tests and wider tests be required, that societies contribute towards this and apply a small levy to each member, but tests would need to be transparent 4. HOYS test all class winners. Personally think this alone would be a big deterrent 5. Societies agree that if say you fail a dope test carried out by say TSR and TSR imply a 6 month ban, then this ban would apply to all other societies
Regarding a competitor putting an objection in to a show Sec, as a past show Sec myself I have to say I’d have had no idea how to proceed for these reasons. Horse / pony would have left the ring some time may have passed so could claim “came out the ring a bit sore so we gave him some Bute”. Competitor may refuse a show secs request to have test / stay on showground- would I have authority time and man power to insist they wait vet whilst also attending to other show Sec demands. Who is going to pay for this test. I normally would agree that competitors need to some extent self police, report etc, but not in this case.
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Post by haggis on Sept 26, 2018 12:12:28 GMT
Well said, agree on if guilty with 1 society you should not be able to Show same horse/judge with different society
and as for putting a private objection in at a show - well thats just silly as you say how would you police it
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Post by chelseah01 on Sept 26, 2018 13:02:22 GMT
Well said “Until This Happens” I agree with everything you say except the testing of all HOYS winners, which, although would be the ideal, but with some 60 showing classes that is a lot of levy to raise. But yes that would be a great deterrent.
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To turn a blind eye
Guest
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Post by To turn a blind eye on Sept 26, 2018 15:37:19 GMT
As mentioned many times on this thread, doping and it’s use has been the topic of conversation around the shows this year. Surely it cant all be gossip and untruth’s as the old saying goes there is no smoke without fire. How long are the societies going to turn a blind eye to this just because its a red hot topic that nobody wants to touch! A conversation that I had with a friend who is also a well known judge confirmed “We are not dull we know its going on but we just judge what’s in front of us on the day, normally the horses that we suspect are the best behaved or do have the best confirmation due to these performance/confirmation enhancing drugs.. The comments left me speechless and endless to say a heated debate on the subject took place, but in the judges favour they are there to judge confirmation, ride and way of going not how much do to they suspect the poor animal has been given illegally. It needs to be controlled from the top and societies need to make an example of ANYBODY both professional or unprofessional that is causing harm to the animal. If a ballot of members was to take place regarding extra levey per entry towards testing, I am in no doubt the lions share would vote in favour
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Post by Please Clarify on Oct 14, 2018 18:26:12 GMT
Ive made myself log on and look for this thread due to what I have heard recently. So please correct me if I’m wrong. The BSPS are aware of positive tests from professional yards this year but cannot legally do anything about it because it will affect said person’s earning potential???
Surely this is incorrect, if so what is the point of having a society if they cannot issue bans? Is this the case because they are so called “professional” or would they treat a home produced person the same?
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Post by Annon on Oct 15, 2018 10:02:15 GMT
Good Job the FEI don't take such pitiful excuses on board. If BSPS tested a horse/pony why aren't they acting on it. The NPS acted on two producers last year.
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Post by Rife on Oct 15, 2018 12:38:47 GMT
Ive made myself log on and look for this thread due to what I have heard recently. So please correct me if I’m wrong. The BSPS are aware of positive tests from professional yards this year but cannot legally do anything about it because it will affect said person’s earning potential??? Surely this is incorrect, if so what is the point of having a society if they cannot issue bans? Is this the case because they are so called “professional” or would they treat a home produced person the same? I have heard this too, just wish I had the nerve to contact the bsps and ask them directly. I know as members we should have access to this kind of thing, either through our area chair or from head office, but I fear one would just be marked as a trouble maker. I have previously emailed in to ask for clarification if a certain bit is legal and not even had the courtesy of a reply.
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Post by Until this happens on Oct 15, 2018 17:03:51 GMT
If the recent rumours are to be believed, then 3 of the “top name pony” producers all had positive tests this year. I wonder if it is a case of the society not issuing bans due to the potential legal challenge over lose of income, or perhaps the hoo ha and detrimental affect having 3 of your society top producers all testing positive- what that publically would do to a society’s reputation - potential lose of income from entries - potential lose of sponsorship and so on. Whilst I accept the potential difficulty with issuing a ban and a legal challenge over livelihood, surely some form of ban or even publically publishing all test results should occur Although the legal challenge is real, surely as it stands it’s just a green light for producers to use banned substances Caveat that of course the recent rumour could just be that and no wrong doing has occurred
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Post by Please Clarify on Oct 16, 2018 15:41:22 GMT
There must be truth in it if people from up and down the country have all heard the same story! So must we assume that because its three of the biggest named producers in showing its all okay for them to be harming our ponies but not the home produced family. THIS IS ABSOLUTE MADNESS!!!
And as for the owners of these ponies what the hell are you thinking staying with these people and supporting these awful practices.
They should not allow any ponies off their yards anywhere near a ring. I often see breeders using quotes on their for sale ads "Will consider Lease if going to a professional yard" well maybe you should all think twice were you are placing your beloved young stock
This post has been modified. Please do not directly involve individuals without any solid evidence as that may carry legal implications.
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Post by daisycutter on Oct 16, 2018 23:17:03 GMT
Its such a shame the abuse of these beautiful creatures, shame on you people who are guilty of this.
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Post by Naysayers on Oct 17, 2018 8:26:18 GMT
I've followed this thread to see where it lead & for the usual contribution of naysayers. The silence is deafening sadly. The usual judges & society committee members, that do put in good input defending themselves over spurious comments/allegations. I'm still struggling with the 2ltrs of vodka to avoid detection!!! But it seems, if the rumour is true, that there is no need to avoid detection. This needs to be clarified & quickly. There may be people up & down this country that have lost out on qualifying to ponies that should have been banned for the most serious of rule breaches. As for loss of earnings for professionals, what about loss of entry fees for competing against animals that shouldn't be in the class?
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Post by FEI? on Oct 17, 2018 8:56:22 GMT
How come the FEI can impose suspensions of a few weeks, a few months and anything up to a lifetime ban (for multiple offences) when they have a positive dope test, and an international show jumper has far higher 'potential earnings' to loose than a showing producer. The NPS banned 2 producers last year and they were named in H&H. I fail to understand why BSPS are not doing the same. Even if they feel they cant impose a ban, they can fine and name and shame - they have done this in the past with an RI Champion. If there is nothing to hide they ought to make a statement that there have been no positive tests this year and put all the rumours to bed. Rumours damage this industry. I think it is a very positive step for the showing council to work on an enforceable joint testing agreement as long as the main societies agree to sign up to it. One society being brave and banning for substance abuse is meaningless if that person can carry on competing in other classes. It is noticeable that some societies don't dope test at all, but have an opinion on the subject. Yes its expensive, but if every society did at least 2 a year, its a start.
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Post by Please clarify on Oct 17, 2018 10:24:17 GMT
I totally agree with the above. However, it looks to me that the BSPS are keeping silent due to the fact that the positive tests were all off professional yards. I am right to the think the RI Champion mentioned was home produced and maybe they thought an example could be made of this person.
It can’t be allowed no matter what if you are caught causing harm to an animal you should be banned. How in god’s name Isnt the welfare of the animal not being taken into consideration. That is more important than a producers earning potential! It obviously wasn’t a thought to them when they were illegally administering harmful drugs. And going forward who would you complain too if you wanted an issue raised because to me the BSPS is just an operation taking money off all its members and only looking after the chosen producers. If you starved an animal you would end up in court with a lengthy ban or even life ban, but if you drug an animal and administer harmful substances (which I care to add most wouldn’t know what The consequences are) it’s brushed under the carpet. Most of these ponies are babies with their lives in front of them ruined by ignorance.
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Post by Undercover on Oct 17, 2018 10:57:20 GMT
I just wonder if the BSPS would appreciate an investigation from a television company ??
Or maybe one of the Showing Magazines covering??
A. Were there positive tests this year? B. What action was taken against owners/Producers C. Why wasn’t results made public (Freedom of information) D. Are they aware of total corruption within the Society. E. Are the taking memberships off unprofessional members under false pretences. F. Is the BSPS a society for the “Producers”
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Post by snowman on Oct 17, 2018 11:02:14 GMT
I have been following this and we have to put the animals welfare first.
If an animal needs to be given something that isn’t allowed under rules then imo that’s cheating.
We all have to go to work to fund our animals, so the professionals losing their job really doesn’t stand.
If they have to cheat to win are they really professionals.
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Post by Please Clarify on Oct 17, 2018 11:41:46 GMT
Nearly 5,000 views of this thread just shows the passion of this subject.
Please stop buying ponies off these so called ‘Professional’. Yards.
Hit them where it hurts in their pockets
The so called suspects still have their owners praising them for how the horse looked and went. Unbelievable !!
Personally I would be embarrassed to be part of a Team that gained their success through corruption or connection.
As an unprofessional I would pay extra in my entry for the top two to be tested. It would still be cheaper than the entry, diesel costs and personal disappointment to be beaten by a professional cheat.
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Post by FEI? on Oct 17, 2018 11:50:10 GMT
I just wonder if the BSPS would appreciate an investigation from a television company ?? Or maybe one of the Showing Magazines covering?? A. Were there positive tests this year? B. What action was taken against owners/Producers C. Why wasn’t results made public (Freedom of information) D. Are they aware of total corruption within the Society. E. Are the taking memberships off unprofessional members under false pretences. F. Is the BSPS a society for the “Producers” Perhaps someone who is a member of the BSPS could raise this with them? Or someone who has contacts with the media, such as H&H, they love a good story!
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Post by chelseah01 on Oct 17, 2018 13:19:09 GMT
Isn’t this the saddest thread ever!
“Undercover” I feel we may be forced down the route of going to the media but before we get to that point there are a few more things we can do.
There is a bsps area chairman’s meeting coming up soon, we should all request that our chairperson ask the following…
How many ponies were tested in 2018 at….
area qualifying shows
the winter champs
the summer champs
the Heritage champs
RIHS BSPS classes
I believe that as members of a society we should be able to access this information, but it would be interesting just to see if they are prepared to give an answer to this simple question!
After that, like “Undercover” I would like answers to A,B,C,D,E and F.
I heard that no show animals were tested at HOYS so have written in and asked the question, the email was sent last Friday but, as yet, I have not received a response….but I will keep you posted if I do.
This blatant cheating and animal abuse can not be allowed to continue.
Let’s keep rattling the cage…
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Post by rumoursvstruth on Oct 17, 2018 16:30:52 GMT
I have not heard any of the so called rumours re 3 top professional yards but don't compete in plaited pony classes (which is what I assume this is referring too?) but this is one problem - with this accusation everyone can have a guess as who this might be and could well be wrong. Thus causing damage to someone who just happens to be good at their jobs and damaging their reputation. i think it would be in everyone's best interests to stop rumours and get true facts out in the open.. Correct me if I am wrong but BSPS DO publish results of dope testing that they have carried out on their news page, I have certainly seen this from the Summer Champs. So is the suggestion that negative results have been withheld? If so I agree that is very serious and if people have evidence then they should take this further. I think the above suggestion about asking for information via Area Chairmans meeting is a very sensible approach. I also understand that HOYS have their own rules and therefore testing would not fall under BSPS or any other society for that matter. Whilst I certainly do not condone any of the doping that has been described in this thread I also think we need to be careful about spreading rumours or assuming all producers dope their ponies. There are some very honest, experienced and ethical producers out there just as there are some very dishonest and unethical amateurs who seem to have their own agenda.
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Post by gillwales on Oct 18, 2018 18:36:05 GMT
I have been following this and we have to put the animals welfare first. If an animal needs to be given something that isn’t allowed under rules then imo that’s cheating. We all have to go to work to fund our animals, so the professionals losing their job really doesn’t stand. If they have to cheat to win are they really professionals. While I do agree with you, we should be more concerned for the children who are riding the ponies and the others who are in the ring or exercise area. If it is true then IMO the BSPS should take some serious legal advise as it can be proved that they have been negligent, and I would think that if they failed to act on a positive test result and the person responsible repeated the "doping" then they would be liable, both I suspect criminally and in the civil courts. Ponies and horses will not always respond as expected, I have known some to freck when twitched, I have even seen it happen when a Vet sedated one mare. So it impossible to predict a reaction. And for anyone considering using a substance, even a calmer, please think again.
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Post by Naysayers on Oct 18, 2018 19:57:47 GMT
Sadly, from my interpretation of rule 63 f(ii) in the BSPS rule book, there is not a set procedure to a failed dope test, as in instantly disqualifying or banning. Only that they will decide whether or not to take disciplinary action against a breach of the dope test failure. Though the NPS has a set procedure prior to a disciplinary hearing for a failed test. Which includes an instant ban & disqualification from the show the test was taken & you cannot participate in any future NPS show, until whatever action is decided upon.
Clearly an unclear rule by the BSPS....
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Post by Rife on Oct 19, 2018 5:48:29 GMT
Sadly, from my interpretation of rule 63 f(ii) in the BSPS rule book, there is not a set procedure to a failed dope test, as in instantly disqualifying or banning. Only that they will decide whether or not to take disciplinary action against a breach of the dope test failure. Though the NPS has a set procedure prior to a disciplinary hearing for a failed test. Which includes an instant ban & disqualification from the show the test was taken & you cannot participate in any future NPS show, until whatever action is decided upon. Clearly an unclear rule by the BSPS.... Wouldn’t it be interesting to have a look at a rule book going back 10 to 15 years to see if this rule has been amended be deliberately foggy!
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Post by chelseah01 on Oct 19, 2018 7:54:35 GMT
Naysayers, I love that you always seem to articulate my thoughts, thanks!
Although the action taken after a positive test is hugely important I believe we have to start at the beginning.
I think we should know how many tests are to be taken at, for example the summer champs. We then need to know the procedure following that…
Are the tests to be taken decided before the show ( i.e. 2nd in HOYS SHP )
Are they balloted
How many are actually tested
When would the results be published
Any action to be taken
All of the above should be transparent for all members to see.
AS MEMBERS WE SURELY SHOULD KNOW WHO IS BREAKING THE RULES!
How this is then dealt with is a secondary problem and one for the societies to resolve. But because this is a difficult and thorny issue does NOT mean that the entire matter should be just swept under the carpet.
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Post by gillwales on Oct 20, 2018 16:57:51 GMT
Naysayers, I love that you always seem to articulate my thoughts, thanks! Although the action taken after a positive test is hugely important I believe we have to start at the beginning. I think we should know how many tests are to be taken at, for example the summer champs. We then need to know the procedure following that… Are the tests to be taken decided before the show ( i.e. 2nd in HOYS SHP ) Are they balloted How many are actually tested When would the results be published Any action to be taken All of the above should be transparent for all members to see. AS MEMBERS WE SURELY SHOULD KNOW WHO IS BREAKING THE RULES! How this is then dealt with is a secondary problem and one for the societies to resolve. But because this is a difficult and thorny issue does NOT mean that the entire matter should be just swept under the carpet. I suggest you write to the BSPS and / or Grandstand Media, quote your membership number ( BSPS ) ask the questions and advise that if they do not reply or answer your questions that you intend to attend the next AGM and ask there. Tell them that if in that case they fail to respond that you will contact the Charities Commission as IMO if they are allowing people to get away with doping ponies that children are riding that it goes against it's charitable intentions. You are unlikely to get the answers you want on here.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Oct 21, 2018 9:19:20 GMT
[/quote] I suggest you write to the BSPS and / or Grandstand Media, quote your membership number ( BSPS ) ask the questions and advise that if they do not reply or answer your questions that you intend to attend the next AGM and ask there. Tell them that if in that case they fail to respond that you will contact the Charities Commission as IMO if they are allowing people to get away with doping ponies that children are riding that it goes against it's charitable intentions.
You are unlikely to get the answers you want on here. [/quote]
You are also unlikely to get anything from the Charities Commission as they will have no jurisdiction over either the BSPS or Grandstand Media as neither are charities.
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