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Post by mandmgirl0164 on May 27, 2011 6:46:57 GMT
I think it was very brave of whoever took that photo, to do so.
It would have been so easy to keep walking and pretend not to have seen such a sight.... That photo (and that mare) have brought this subject to the forefront and prevented a cover-up - too late for that pony, but hopefully, it will have saved a lot more from ending up in such horrendous circumstances.
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Milliesmum
H G Addict
COCKERP00S RULE!!!
Posts: 23,901
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Post by Milliesmum on May 27, 2011 6:49:23 GMT
Midnightthunder - welcome to HG, a very informative and constructive first post. Thank you.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 27, 2011 7:07:00 GMT
Working Cob - Highill - I had cause to travel to West Wales on a judging appointment last month - and I must say that I was shocked at the GENERAL condition of the recently lambed ewes. There was NO grass through, yet the ewes were out..........(and, in many places, tight) WE wouldn't do it, but it seems to be commonplace in the outer regions. So........ Live and let live.............. ? And, before I'm jumped on - no- I AM NOT condoning it. The opposite, in fact - but, I'm simply commenting on what I noticed ....................... I'm sorry, but I dont quite get the live and let live.............? Comment? Are you saying, although not condoning the fact that in the outer regions, it is acceptable to run animals whatever their genus to the bone? And Pattendown I dont wish to appear rude, but although we dont breed our horses or ponies with the ultimate end of them ending up on the plate, for some it is the best solution to their suffering, whatever form that may take, if you have them put down, they are likely to end up on the dogs plate. The fact some cultures choose to eat horses and we dont, does'nt mean they are wrong, and having eaten most of a lasagne one night in a Paris restaurant and then having a poke round on what I'd left, realised from the colour, remembering from childhood in a Parisian household and being told by my mother what the flesh was on my plate, I discovered I had eaten horse meat. I did'nt throw a fit, perhaps if I'd known before hand I might have ordered a different dish, but it did'nt kill me, I got more upset over the first calf we killed for meat. Personally, classing the horse as livestock is not animal cruelty, it could be the saving grace for many in my humble opinion. Armada - I agree absolutely with what you say regarding eating horseflesh (I too ate it, in similar circumanstances, in Belgium) - That aside, I have no qualms about stock going for slaughter - like many I was brought up on a beef farm and to this day take lambs to market. And yes, your words "it could be a saving grace for many" is very true. Please don't jump on me for my - 'live and let live' comment - I was saying that what I saw (and indeed regularly see in some areas up here, is not how I would wish to keep my stock - but we all have different standards. The ewes with lambs at foot that I was refering to were not starving, but by God they were having to forage hard for a living. So - We're both singing from the same hymnshet. Midnight thunder - what a good, sensible, balanced post!
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Post by jinja on May 27, 2011 7:40:33 GMT
Midnight Thunder your post was very informative, the only thing I totally disagree with is your condemning the person who took the photo of the mare who died whilst foaling. That pony had suffered the most horrendous death and to cover it up with a tarpaulin would not have helped it in any way. It would have benefited Mr Evans far more than the pony, as that photo touched so many people and without it I doubt anything would have been done.
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mpc
Junior Member
Posts: 183
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Post by mpc on May 27, 2011 9:06:05 GMT
Midnight Thunder your post was very informative, the only thing I totally disagree with is your condemning the person who took the photo of the mare who died whilst foaling. That pony had suffered the most horrendous death and to cover it up with a tarpaulin would not have helped it in any way. It would have benefited Mr Evans far more than the pony, as that photo touched so many people and without it I doubt anything would have been done. My thoughts exactly. Midnight Thunder a very well worded and informative post. I do think that any animal lover, having come across a mare in those circumstances would have encountered all sorts of strong emotions in very short space of time, namely; anger, sadness, rage, frustration. I know my first thoughts would be to nail the b*stard who allowed this situation to arise and the poor pony to suffer and get some evidence. Especially having seen the fact that the mares legs were bound with rope in a half hearted attempt to move her and conceal the state she was in! How would an innocent passer by gain access to a tarpaulin to cover the mare?
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Post by junetimp on May 27, 2011 9:23:41 GMT
Midnight Thunder your post was very informative, the only thing I totally disagree with is your condemning the person who took the photo of the mare who died whilst foaling. That pony had suffered the most horrendous death and to cover it up with a tarpaulin would not have helped it in any way. It would have benefited Mr Evans far more than the pony, as that photo touched so many people and without it I doubt anything would have been done. Well said - Very true and I agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by brindlerainbow on May 27, 2011 9:30:01 GMT
Welcome Midnight Thunder and thank you for an informative post that was easy to read and made sense!! The only thing I disagree with is the comment about photographing the dead mare. That photo is evidence of the hideous conditions that the ponies are subjected to. It should have been Mr Evans responsibility to remove or cover up the mare and in fact to call a vet when she was having trouble foaling.
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Post by icarus on May 27, 2011 9:44:12 GMT
I have also been following this thread and applaud those who have helped bring this to the public attention, I also bought H+H yesterday which i rarely do these days. I want to do something to help but feel so B****y useless which is partly why i have not posted on this topic before now.
The picture of the dead mare and foal needed to be taken, It really spurred things on, yes it was very upsetting to see.
If WHW has taken some of the ponies then that is a step in the right direction but what of those left behind?
Will the stallions be taken of the mares? if not, how many foals will be churned out next year?
Its not just this one stud though is it, yes this particular situation needs attention but what of the other studs churning out foals endlessly and sending to unknown fates? would it be possible to limit the number of foals bred per year per Breeder? Some kind of legislation needs to be brought in to protect these beautiful animals.
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Post by sjp on May 27, 2011 10:07:32 GMT
I agree the person who took the photographs did the right thing showing not just the awful way in which she died but the dreadful bodily condition of the mare. What follows, I feel, is of great importance for people to read. It has been said before somewhere but somehow seems to have got lost in the mass. These pictures were taken as evidence to present to the WPCS council of the time. A brave council member showed them to the rest of the council who one and all refused to take any action. Indeed one of those council members told Mr Evan Evans who had reported him to the council and he followed that up by assaulting the lady in a public place. The same lady showed the same pictures to Terry Court. As for the present Criccieth ponies, I'm sorry to bring you all down to earth with a bump, but there are still an uncountable number of ponies 'grazing' on his land, no visable significant difference from a fortnight ago.
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Post by sparrow on May 27, 2011 10:12:49 GMT
Midnightthunder - Could you explain why the person who took the photo should have shown compassion when the owner, Mr Evans, shown no compassion. Her allowed her to die in birth, he did not call a vet and as the picture shows she was in appalling condition. I applaud the person who took the picture it has provided evidence of what has been happening at Criccieth.
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Post by sparrow on May 27, 2011 10:22:36 GMT
There is a 'Code of Practice for the Welfare of Equines' - in Wales This can be downloaded www.wales.gov.uk put welfare of equines into the search and the codes of practice will come up. There are 2 parts both of which make informative reading but page 58 in part 2 says " prosecutions under the act are brought by the local authority in the Magistrates Court"
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Post by pentaran on May 27, 2011 10:33:30 GMT
Midnighthunder , a very well written informative piece of information from someone who obviously has first hand experience of this . However your point in capitals about the TAFFIA relates to something I said, these are not neccessarily local , but having first hand knowledge of this myself I know he was tipped off from people in high places and a lady was assaulted because of it. I am not in the habit of telling untruths and do not rely on second or third hand gossip. I was told this by the lady herself who is not actually that much younger than this man herself . I will leave this now as hopefully the wheels are in motion and well done to all concerned behind the scenes.
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jdd
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by jdd on May 27, 2011 11:55:41 GMT
Sent this to H&H
Hello I just wanted to make contact to say thank you and well done for the two page coverage you have given the Builth Sale and welfare issues around it. Whatever the ins and outs involved the fact that the ponies looked in such bad condition needed to be brought to the fore and I am so pleased Horse and Hound have taken this on baord and covered it. I hope we will see further updates in the magazine as they come to light. Well Done Horse and Hound. Thanks Julia Donald
And got this reply
Many thanks for your email to Lucy Higginson which I would like to include on this week’s letter page. Could you please let me know what your geographical address is ie Orpington, Kent.
Many thanks once again.
Yours sincerely
Jaki Bell DEPUTY EDITOR Horse & Hound Tel: 020 3148 4566 The Blue Fin Building 110 Southwark Street London SE1 0SU
I sure lots already have but I suggest as many as possible send a letter in, if we can get lots on the letters page about this the profile will remain high.
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Post by poneydestiny on May 27, 2011 12:03:30 GMT
Marvelous follow up on all sides and all issues, as we said, strength in numbers! Looking for a volunteer to help with a report on the use of welsh ponies as meat..as we would like to have some better facts..any takers? probably a two page brief which then could be winnowed down to a press release We can guide as to areas of interest
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Post by sjp on May 27, 2011 12:50:57 GMT
Just in support of Pentaran,I too had the facts directly from the lady concerned. Poneydestiny, do you not have a comment for us on the fact that there are still many,many ponies at criccieth when you told us on page 40 of this topic that no ponies were left at the stud?
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supes
Full Member
Posts: 328
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Post by supes on May 27, 2011 13:22:13 GMT
I agree the person who took the photographs did the right thing showing not just the awful way in which she died but the dreadful bodily condition of the mare. What follows, I feel, is of great importance for people to read. It has been said before somewhere but somehow seems to have got lost in the mass. These pictures were taken as evidence to present to the WPCS council of the time. A brave council member showed them to the rest of the council who one and all refused to take any action. Indeed one of those council members told Mr Evan Evans who had reported him to the council and he followed that up by assaulting the lady in a public place. The same lady showed the same pictures to Terry Court. As for the present Criccieth ponies, I'm sorry to bring you all down to earth with a bump, but there are still an uncountable number of ponies 'grazing' on his land, no visable significant difference from a fortnight ago. Sjp I totally agree with you regarding the photo of the mare foaling- as distressing as it was, it needed to be seen and I applaud the person who was put in that position in order to try and get some action taken....I have my own opinion on the string that is attached to the mares back legs as I do not feel it would have been sufficiently strong (Or long enough) to attempt to pull the mare away with, I feel perhaps it was used to tie the mares legs together to try obtain `some sort of restraint` whilst trying to get the foal out...the fact the foals head is only out makes it even more distressing to me as if this WAS the case, then the mare was left in this way BY SOMEONE WHO KNEW SHE WAS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE to then die alone and in agony....I state again, this is my OWN opinion as the rope just doesn`t look substantial enough to remove the mare, even as emaciated as she is! The final paragraph of your posting really upsets me sjp as I know you quite well and trust what you say and to hear that things at Criccieth are pretty much the same as they were two weeks ago with an `uncountable` number of ponies still present then I for one feel duped by those who posted that ALL ponies at Criccieth had now been removed and this had happened within seven days? Come on Poneydestiny, what IS the truth?
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Post by stormyskies on May 27, 2011 13:55:47 GMT
i dont think people will be brought down to earth with a bump by that. i think, or at least imagine, people are aware that there are still ponies being grazed in the same condition, but not at the stud. but i imagine that the same would happen again if there location was made public. they would then be moved on again. and in order for the whw to see them, they need to stay in the same place. if you get my drift.
my friend was down there a few days ago and the actual stud was deserted. but the stud isnt all the land he owns.
this is a very public thread that many know about, even the 'bad' guys and i imagine our every word and movement is being monitored. and am sure you can fill in the rest yourselves!
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Post by poneydestiny on May 27, 2011 14:27:39 GMT
I stand by what I said at the time I said it. Mr Evans perhaps thinks that this is smart to be moving ponies all over the place to try to avoid scrutiny (poor ponies!) and the more we keep at him, the more he is going to keep moving them around. There are people who watch, are aware, but the most important is that the authorities are now aware and have taken steps. I would suggest to Mr Evans that he dedicate his energies to getting some hay into the fields where his ponies are located instead of using all his energies to play hide and seek - and people are worried about his health! Take care of your responsibilities ELE in a rational manner and everything else will take care of itself - I don't think that is too hard to understand.
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Post by poop on May 27, 2011 14:35:47 GMT
I do hope Nick Mason from the Tullibardine stud has written to horse and hound too and that is printed in the letters page to set the record straight regarding the date Hernani was returned.
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Post by JadeCannon on May 27, 2011 14:40:03 GMT
Poor ponies, as SS & PD have said - there have been numerous reports that the entire stud was deserted - I presume this was because of the 'demo/protest', seems to convinient that they are all back a couple of days after it is called off. I honestly hope that he doesnt move them again (or were they hidden??) - I have sent a short message to WHW advising them that stock is now back at stud. I think now is the time to back off the stud in question - the authorities are well aware of the case, and I am sure there is delicate negociations occurring between WHW and ELE. I personally am continuing email / write letters and encourage people to sign the petition. Hopefully if this is kept in the public eye the ponies have the best possible shot at a good life.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 27, 2011 14:55:33 GMT
The photo of the poor, pitiful pony dying foaling - is there proof beyond doubt that this was taken on the premises or registered grazings of Mr Evan Evans? (Hoping so) [/b] Beyond all doubt, no, not at this point in my possession in relation to photo 2. I have amended the wording in relation to photo 2 so that there is no ref to the stud. Thanks for the cross-examination SHSManager - good prep for the court case...[/quote] Subsequent to me asking the question as quoted above (one week ago) has it since been proved that the dead mare was on the Evans premises or tack??
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Post by secretlady on May 27, 2011 14:59:39 GMT
I am so afraid these poor ponies future is now been set how can the said stud now take them to auction or even advertise them privately by people questioning their dna etc whos going to buy them in my opinion there is only one way these poor ponies can now go i hope to god i'm wrong
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Post by pattendown on May 27, 2011 15:17:59 GMT
no lp i do agree its people choice ,but not mine ,i wont eat rabbit either and it isnt bacause the bunny is so fluffy as some people have put it ,its because its yukky thers no meat on it ,im under the impression we dont have to eat everything that moves , but i dont like being called the fluffy bunny brigade ,blimey ive eaten bambi lol ,
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Post by midnightthunder on May 27, 2011 19:56:55 GMT
Thank you for your welcome to the site as said I didnt join to upset the apple cart or insult anyone. With regard to my comment about the mare who died foaling -it is my opinion that whoever took the photo woud have been better spending their time covering her to give her dignity but just because I would have done that I dont expect everyone else to do the same. I have little or no doubt that the pic would help in any prosecution brought but what worries me is where is the proof that this mare wasl eft without vetinary assistance? Where is the proof that the ropes shown were used to move the mare? I'm not being antagonistic but realistic we all know that anything said in the public domain is open to public scrutiny be it libelous or slanderous - what is reported needs to be fact and backed up with hard evidence I personally would hate anyone to be hauled before the courts for some unstubstaniated comment made on this forum. With regard to the lady that was threatened - I appologise for my insensitivity - and certainly never intended to make it seem like anyone who said so and so had been threatened was a liar - my reference to the Taffia is a Welsh thing - people with clout power money etc are often refeered to as such - again no offence was meant and my sympathies to anyone who has been threatened etc. In view of the ponies being at the stud or being moved this is purely my view - yes Mr Evans like others have land in other places - I do - I need to or else would have nowhere to graze my animals - where Mr Evans has his land I do not know, and thats the truth. Its not however a crime to do so but, I'm sure WHW are aware of this fact and I really dont believe that there is a cover up going on. PeopleI believe should look at the positive and applaud the fact that after all these years the WHW have gained access to Cricieth Stud and for however long have got the agreement of Mr Evans to work with them the fact he has signed over even some of the ponies is a stepin the right direction IMO. With regard to the running of the stallions with the mares sorry cant answer that, am not privvy to that info - I am trying to the best of my ability to present things as I know/see them. Finally with regard to private prosecutions - I believe that yes anyone can try and take on a cruelty case success - doubtful as the normal person like you or I would not have the money or connections to get the required evidence for a warrant to be granted. The other charities can take a prosecution if they want but normally left to the RSPCA as they have the clout and the money to see it through and more often than not a court would rule with the RSPCA.
And for the record - yes have had delings with both WHW and the RSPCA - and the RSPCA took the biscuit! I phoned them to report that someone was throwing bricks and shooting an airgun at my birds (think pretty long tails seen in stately homes) - a RSPCA inspector came out couldnt see birds, but what she saw was a mare in my fields who she believed had a snotty nose as there was a discharge coming from her nostrils. She rang me and left a very very snotty message on my phone about this mare. When I got back n touch with here she was adamant that I immediately got a vet out to treat ths mare and that I was neglecting her as she had a cold. Fact this mare did not have a cold,Fact this mare was far from unwell, Fact the Inspector went very quiet when I told her that this mare had a cleft pallate! Fact the inspector didnt know what this was - Fact - cleft Pallate - the mare everything the mare ate or drank part of it would come pouring back out through her nose like green snot - hence her nickname Snottly. Vets told me that this mare was lucky to be alive as most foals dont make it as they cant suckle - at the time this mare was 14 years old. Final fact - couldI get the inspector back out toprove my point with a vet in attendance? Could I hell. So yes I have had experience of the RSPCA in all their glory - was I impressed NO.
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Post by chorro on May 27, 2011 20:37:36 GMT
not many people who have had dealings with the RSPCA are impressed
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Post by pentaran on May 27, 2011 20:37:54 GMT
You sound very sensible midnighthunder, I dont think the RSPCA person you talk of works for them any more, think what you may . : ) I also took on a foal that had been discarded a) because he had very very excessive white markings for a section C in fact snow white apart from a brown hat on his head and a saddle sized patch on his back, he is now a very happy horse who is much loved by his owners .
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Post by diane on May 28, 2011 17:12:52 GMT
Have just been reading reports elsewhere on Clwyd Sale at Ruthin. I have always been very pleased with the Auctioneers at this Sale. Has there ever been a "reduction/dispersal" sold from there? I would have thought that being on the doorstep this would have been the choice and not ferrying all those ponies down to Builth Wells? Have also attended another large reduction Sale in N Wales on the studs premises (mostly Cobs) Again not over handled, but all in good condition and decent money for most Lots. Let us hope that all the excellent work on here and beyond can make for a better life for equines, wherever they are born.
Modify to add..not N Wales but Powys...just over the border!
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Post by nici on May 28, 2011 21:51:42 GMT
I was at the Clwyd WPCA sales today, and am pleased to say we didn't see one pony in poor condition. A few looking as though they'd just been dragged out of the field but most were spotless, beautifully turned out and in lovely condition - I saw a few that were a touch overweight for my taste but nothing that was worryingly obese. Prices were generally pretty low though.
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Post by jennid on May 28, 2011 23:10:30 GMT
Midnightthunder - you state that Mr Evans is not a difficult man, perhaps not in your experience. I would have to disagree with you, as my mother has seen a different side to him. It was my mother (who is in her 70's) that he attacked at a local sale, for reporting him to the WPCS Council when people half her age knew what was going on with his ponies and didn't have the balls to do so. I am also glad that the protest did not happen - as I think it was getting a bit out of hand. As for the ''others that live nearby'' - surely they should have done something about the situation as it was staring them in the face day in day out!!!!! I also do not share your view of the photo that was taken of the mare that died whilst foaling, instead of treating the photographer as the villain in this whole sage, you should be lying the blame entirely at the feet of E LL Evans, his family and friends. ''Compiling a macarbre photo gallery'' I think not, just providing photographic evidence and hard facts, to bring to people's attention the horrific goings on at the Criccieth Stud, and as for showing some compassion for the dead mare and her unborn foal - E LL Evans did not show any whilst she was alive, or in death in fact. He as a responsible owner should have covered her with a tarpaulin and he should have made sure she was in better condition to be able to deliver the foal safely. Ok every birth is a risk, but by ensuring the mare was in better condition she perhaps would have had a better chance of surviving, as you can see in the photo how thin she is, she didn't stand a chance she didn't have the strength to deliver the foal safely.
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Post by dobiegirl on May 28, 2011 23:31:42 GMT
Please correct me if Im wrong but I thought you were not allowed to travel a mare so close to foaling. If there are no laws for this there should be , surely this is a welfare issue.
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