supes
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Posts: 328
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Post by supes on May 28, 2011 23:58:42 GMT
Have just been reading reports elsewhere on Clwyd Sale at Ruthin. I have always been very pleased with the Auctioneers at this Sale. Has there ever been a "reduction/dispersal" sold from there? I would have thought that being on the doorstep this would have been the choice and not ferrying all those ponies down to Builth Wells? Have also attended another large reduction Sale in N Wales on the studs premises (mostly Cobs) Again not over handled, but all in good condition and decent money for most Lots. Let us hope that all the excellent work on here and beyond can make for a better life for equines, wherever they are born. Modify to add..not N Wales but Powys...just over the border! Hi, just to let you know, yes there was a Criccieth Stud `Important Reduction Sale` held at the Vale of Clwyd Mart, Ruthin, Denbighshire on Wednesday 17th September 1997, the Auctioneers were Ruthin Farmers Auction Company Limited- 65 ponies were entered...I only know this as I have the Sale Catalogue sitting in front of me! ;-) I haven`t gone through my stacks of other catalogues yet so don`t know if this was a `one off` or not.
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Post by bronco on May 29, 2011 0:04:43 GMT
well said jennid.
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Post by Philippa on May 29, 2011 6:32:12 GMT
Please correct me if Im wrong but I thought you were not allowed to travel a mare so close to foaling. If there are no laws for this there should be , surely this is a welfare issue. We used to put the TB mares who went over on the lorry for a ride. Nine times out of ten it brought them on and they foaled that night! I do however think circumstances are quite diffent.
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Post by jinja on May 29, 2011 7:30:18 GMT
well said jennid and shame on mr Evans once again, he not only abuses ponies but old ladies as well, what a nice man he is.
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Post by Louise Dixon on May 29, 2011 8:03:21 GMT
Please correct me if Im wrong but I thought you were not allowed to travel a mare so close to foaling. If there are no laws for this there should be , surely this is a welfare issue. i am not sure about this, but there certainly are rules regarding this for sheep and cattle, for cattle, it is the last 10% of their pregnancy, but i suppose it could be slightly different as they would be travelling in mixed groups rather than partitioned seperately, i think equines over three must be partitioned with the exception of mares with foals at foot, and i would hope that nothing under three would be due to foal, but nothing would surprise me. i did learn all this stuff for my welfare in transportation exam, but it escapes me just now.
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Post by pentaran on May 29, 2011 9:39:43 GMT
Jennid well done for coming forwards with these facts first hand,people should know about things like this Hope your mum isnt offended by the age comment, I dont know ELLE s exact age or your mothers , the point I am trying to make is that as my late husband always used to say " A man who lifts his hand to a woman is not a man" usually a coward and cowards always push around people and things they consider lesser than themselves.
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Post by jebediah on May 29, 2011 10:22:41 GMT
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 29, 2011 11:48:22 GMT
Midnightthunder - you state that Mr Evans is not a difficult man, perhaps not in your experience. I would have to disagree with you, as my mother has seen a different side to him. It was my mother (who is in her 70's) that he attacked at a local sale, for reporting him to the WPCS Council when people half her age knew what was going on with his ponies and didn't have the balls to do so. I am also glad that the protest did not happen - as I think it was getting a bit out of hand. As for the ''others that live nearby'' - surely they should have done something about the situation as it was staring them in the face day in day out!!!!! I also do not share your view of the photo that was taken of the mare that died whilst foaling, instead of treating the photographer as the villain in this whole sage, you should be lying the blame entirely at the feet of E LL Evans, his family and friends. ''Compiling a macarbre photo gallery'' I think not, just providing photographic evidence and hard facts, to bring to people's attention the horrific goings on at the Criccieth Stud, and as for showing some compassion for the dead mare and her unborn foal - E LL Evans did not show any whilst she was alive, or in death in fact. He as a responsible owner should have covered her with a tarpaulin and he should have made sure she was in better condition to be able to deliver the foal safely. Ok every birth is a risk, but by ensuring the mare was in better condition she perhaps would have had a better chance of surviving, as you can see in the photo how thin she is, she didn't stand a chance she didn't have the strength to deliver the foal safely. I'm sorry to keep harping on, but, after the 'dead mare foaling' pic was displayed I asked the question "can it be proven beyond all doubt that the mare was on the premises of Mr EE". The answer was NO, it can't be proved. I repeated the question two days ago and have not had a reply. And, to clarify, (before I get jumped on yet again) NO - I am absolutely NOT a personal friend/or any other connection whatsoever to the Evans family. ** From a Welfare perspective, the image of the mare is tragic and such an unnecesary waste of two lives. However, until there is proof beyond doubt that the filly was his or in his 'care', then people need to be very careful of what they infer. Of late it has snowballed to an asumption that she was his. For clarification, please could the OP confirm where she was located when the photo was taken? And when? **Whilst writing - Nor, for the record, S&O, am I a friend of TC. By my saying that I'd known him for 50-odd years, you sarcastically 'assumed' and wrote - and here I quote - "your friend TC". Anyone who, or who's family, have bought and sold via RB&B (now Brightwells) or even just attended sales under the auspieces of the company will 'know' the gentleman. Therefore, I did resent the inference. I trust you can see where I'm coming from and accept that I wish to put the record straight. Thank you.
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Post by sparrow on May 29, 2011 12:08:07 GMT
shsstablemanager
Have you read the reply by jennid ?
She states that it was her mother who took the picture, reported the facts to WPCS Council and was subsequently attacked by ELE.
Are you accusing this lady of being a liar?
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 29, 2011 12:27:45 GMT
shsstablemanager Have you read the reply by jennid ? She states that it was her mother who took the picture, reported the facts to WPCS Council and was subsequently attacked by ELE. Are you accusing this lady of being a liar? Dear Sparrow, 1) I make no accusations whatsoever. 2) I have read the above post - indeed the various posts umpteen times and cannot see a direct statement to that effect. 3) In my initial question which was to L D1ckinson (20th May) you will see that I asked the question. (Ms D1ckinson replied no, there is no proof) Naturally, from the Welfare perspective, I had hoped that there WAS proof that the pony was indeed EE's, as leaving corpses (this one seemingly in full public view) is in itself a prosecutable crime.
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Post by sjp on May 29, 2011 12:43:43 GMT
It wasn't Jennid's mum that took the photo. I'll leave it to Jennid to comment further if she wants to. Quite a few of us know who took the photo and where but for obvious reasons need to protect the person.
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Post by donut on May 29, 2011 14:39:14 GMT
I have just spent all afternoon reading this thread folloeing the piece in H&H. Can I just say that in October 2010, I and a couple of other friends,were regularly visiting the Tullibardine Stud to spend time with Mindy in her final days. On one of our last visits there we went round looking at all the ponies there, including the Sunwillow mare, and all were in good health, running on good grassland. They looked happy and contented ponies.
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supes
Full Member
Posts: 328
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Post by supes on May 29, 2011 15:52:42 GMT
I have just spent all afternoon reading this thread folloeing the piece in H&H. Can I just say that in October 2010, I and a couple of other friends,were regularly visiting the Tullibardine Stud to spend time with Mindy in her final days. On one of our last visits there we went round looking at all the ponies there, including the Sunwillow mare, and all were in good health, running on good grassland. They looked happy and contented ponies. I am very pleased to hear you are able to report that Hernani and her companions were all seen to be fit and well when you visited Tullibardine Stud in the October of 2010...I am pretty much sure we all knew that and had already disregraded the despicable comments and slur made by Alan Evans, Evan Lloyd Evans son on this matter!
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supes
Full Member
Posts: 328
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Post by supes on May 29, 2011 16:04:22 GMT
shsstablemanager, it has already been stated on another Forum who took the photo of the mare who died foaling and she was WITHOUT DOUBT under the ownership of Evan Lloyd Evans at that time and their witness statements will be sufficient to prove that...I can also tell you that those persons have already notified the relevant authorities and I do not feel it is up to me to divulge on here who those persons are when it has already been made known what has happened to people who have taken some sort of action against Evan Evans at the hands of him and his supporters/Family, surely you will be happy that the correct action has been taken? You seem to be under the misapprehension that people should answer every question you put forward in this matter and if they don`t do so then there isn`t a just answer? I`m afraid it doesn`t work like that and sometimes things have to be kept quiet until the time is RIGHT and appropriate to voice them , please try and understand that it isn`t a good idea to `show your hand` to all and sundry.
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Post by victoria (highhill) on May 29, 2011 16:39:03 GMT
Midnightthunder - you state that Mr Evans is not a difficult man, perhaps not in your experience. I would have to disagree with you, as my mother has seen a different side to him. It was my mother (who is in her 70's) that he attacked at a local sale, for reporting him to the WPCS Council when people half her age knew what was going on with his ponies and didn't have the balls to do so. I am also glad that the protest did not happen - as I think it was getting a bit out of hand. As for the ''others that live nearby'' - surely they should have done something about the situation as it was staring them in the face day in day out!!!!! I also do not share your view of the photo that was taken of the mare that died whilst foaling, instead of treating the photographer as the villain in this whole sage, you should be lying the blame entirely at the feet of E LL Evans, his family and friends. ''Compiling a macarbre photo gallery'' I think not, just providing photographic evidence and hard facts, to bring to people's attention the horrific goings on at the Criccieth Stud, and as for showing some compassion for the dead mare and her unborn foal - E LL Evans did not show any whilst she was alive, or in death in fact. He as a responsible owner should have covered her with a tarpaulin and he should have made sure she was in better condition to be able to deliver the foal safely. Ok every birth is a risk, but by ensuring the mare was in better condition she perhaps would have had a better chance of surviving, as you can see in the photo how thin she is, she didn't stand a chance she didn't have the strength to deliver the foal safely. I'm sorry to keep harping on, but, after the 'dead mare foaling' pic was displayed I asked the question "can it be proven beyond all doubt that the mare was on the premises of Mr EE". The answer was NO, it can't be proved. I repeated the question two days ago and have not had a reply. And, to clarify, (before I get jumped on yet again) NO - I am absolutely NOT a personal friend/or any other connection whatsoever to the Evans family. ** From a Welfare perspective, the image of the mare is tragic and such an unnecesary waste of two lives. However, until there is proof beyond doubt that the filly was his or in his 'care', then people need to be very careful of what they infer. Of late it has snowballed to an asumption that she was his. For clarification, please could the OP confirm where she was located when the photo was taken? And when? **Whilst writing - Nor, for the record, S&O, am I a friend of TC. By my saying that I'd known him for 50-odd years, you sarcastically 'assumed' and wrote - and here I quote - "your friend TC". Anyone who, or who's family, have bought and sold via RB&B (now Brightwells) or even just attended sales under the auspieces of the company will 'know' the gentleman. Therefore, I did resent the inference. I trust you can see where I'm coming from and accept that I wish to put the record straight. Thank you. I have missed out reading a few pages of his thread so may have missed something vital but i am not really sure why there is so much discussion over the dead mare. I think it is quite hard to see the true condition of a mare photographed once dead. Also sad as it is mares do die foaling - fortunately not too often but they do. I did read some comments about the mares legs being tied - for those people who have never seen a dead animal removed to be loaded into a knacker truck - ropes or chains are used - could this be the reason for the rope?
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Post by sageandonion on May 29, 2011 16:45:47 GMT
**Whilst writing - Nor, for the record, S&O, am I a friend of TC. By my saying that I'd known him for 50-odd years, you sarcastically 'assumed' and wrote - and here I quote - "your friend TC". Anyone who, or who's family, have bought and sold via RB&B (now Brightwells) or even just attended sales under the auspieces of the company will 'know' the gentleman. Therefore, I did resent the inference. I trust you can see where I'm coming from and accept that I wish to put the record straight. Thank you. Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=84042&page=43#ixzz1NlDcRfwlI did stop posting on this thread other than to say well done to every one, some pages ago. I see SSM why you are wanting evidence to back up any allegations etc. Therefore, would you kindly pull forward the evidence that I have mentioned your name anywhere on this thread.
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Post by chorro on May 29, 2011 17:58:16 GMT
Sorry HH not wishing to be rude but its perfectly possible to see what condition a horse was in at the time of its death, I speak from experience. Also due to the same experience's when a horse is removed by the knacker man the ropes or chains are generally attached around the neck. Though possibly due to the position an animal died in the ropes would be attached elsewhere.
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Post by blossom2502 on May 29, 2011 18:59:18 GMT
I'm sorry to keep harping on, but, after the 'dead mare foaling' pic was displayed I asked the question "can it be proven beyond all doubt that the mare was on the premises of Mr EE". The answer was NO, it can't be proved. I repeated the question two days ago and have not had a reply. And, to clarify, (before I get jumped on yet again) NO - I am absolutely NOT a personal friend/or any other connection whatsoever to the Evans family. ** From a Welfare perspective, the image of the mare is tragic and such an unnecesary waste of two lives. However, until there is proof beyond doubt that the filly was his or in his 'care', then people need to be very careful of what they infer. Of late it has snowballed to an asumption that she was his. For clarification, please could the OP confirm where she was located when the photo was taken? And when? **Whilst writing - Nor, for the record, S&O, am I a friend of TC. By my saying that I'd known him for 50-odd years, you sarcastically 'assumed' and wrote - and here I quote - "your friend TC". Anyone who, or who's family, have bought and sold via RB&B (now Brightwells) or even just attended sales under the auspieces of the company will 'know' the gentleman. Therefore, I did resent the inference. I trust you can see where I'm coming from and accept that I wish to put the record straight. Thank you. I have missed out reading a few pages of his thread so may have missed something vital but i am not really sure why there is so much discussion over the dead mare. I think it is quite hard to see the true condition of a mare photographed once dead. Also sad as it is mares do die foaling - fortunately not too often but they do. I did read some comments about the mares legs being tied - for those people who have never seen a dead animal removed to be loaded into a knacker truck - ropes or chains are used - could this be the reason for the rope? Regarding the condition of the mare: It may be easier to see her condition from the photo attached(not sure how to embed it in the message). You can clearly see her spine and hips, even through her thick coat they are far too prominent than they should be.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 29, 2011 20:03:51 GMT
Dear Sparrow, 1) I make no accusations whatsoever. 2) I have read the above post - indeed the various posts umpteen times and cannot see a direct statement to that effect. 3) In my initial question which was to L D1ckinson (20th May) you will see that I asked the question. (Ms D1ckinson replied no, there is no proof) Naturally, from the Welfare perspective, I had hoped that there WAS proof that the pony was indeed EE's, as leaving corpses (this one seemingly in full public view) is in itself a prosecutable crime. Just for clarification SHSM, you asked if there was proof and I said 'not in my possession'. I did not say that the proof did not exist. There is a difference. I would be grateful if you would revise your statement number 3 above. I'm far from being the final authority on the source of the photo and am disinclined to engage in any further discussion about it. Personally, until someone imposes a legal ban on the use of that photo I shall continue to use it as a general illustration of neglect and make no claim as to its origin. Clearly, the picture is a "general indication of neglect". Any mutt would recognise that. Put in very simple terms, unless SOMEONE verifies that the mare belonged to EE and was photographed on his premises or tack, then it cannot be used in defence against his basic lack of welfare. L D1ckinson, my original question to you was that I hoped that it COULD be verified. You replied that no, it could not. Please don't shoot me down, I'm trying to help. As for the post from SUPES above, I do not frequent other sites/blogs etc. Why should I? My partner has a terminal and crippling illness, so I can only view what I have time for. I do sincerely hope, though, that the "Welsh Mountain Pony" as we know and love it, will remain in our hearts after this mess.
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Post by jennid on May 29, 2011 20:42:10 GMT
Sparrow - my mother did not take the photo, but was there at the time it was taken just before calling the RSPCA and the Vet. Highhill - it can be proved that the mare was E Ll E's. The rope was tied around the mares legs to try and drag it out of public view. It was there days after the visit. The owner failed miserably, and as you state leaving corpses of animals on land is a prosecutable offence.
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Post by cabbylushtey on May 29, 2011 21:00:24 GMT
As Mr Evan's son was obviously his spokesman for the Horse and Hound article I wonder what role his family have played in the rest of this sorry affair. I would hope that my family if I became incapable of looking after my stock would make sure that action was taken to improve the situation.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 29, 2011 21:08:07 GMT
Sparrow - my mother did not take the photo, but was there at the time it was taken just before calling the RSPCA and the Vet. Highhill - it can be proved that the mare was E Ll E's. The rope was tied around the mares legs to try and drag it out of public view. It was there days after the visit. The owner failed miserably, and as you state leaving corpses of animals on land is a prosecutable offence. No. you don't try and drag the carcase anywhere. YOU call the authorities. They move the carcase. End of story. Out of politeness, you also call the owner, if you are able to do so - but you do NOT faff about with ropes etc. Highiill - seemingly we are being pulled into this together!! At least we farm sheep and we farm them well!! CMN
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 29, 2011 21:18:35 GMT
[/b] Beyond all doubt, no, not at this point in my possession in relation to photo 2. I have amended the wording in relation to photo 2 so that there is no ref to the stud. Thanks for the cross-examination SHSManager - good prep for the court case...[/quote] Subsequent to me asking the question as quoted above (one week ago) has it since been proved that the dead mare was on the Evans premises or tack??[/quote] This is the quote to answer L D1ckinson (now please leave me out of it)!'s quote. ...... I understand. You were unfortunately sent a pic with no proof - no substantiation. I wish that there there were.
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Post by brindlerainbow on May 29, 2011 21:19:37 GMT
From what I have read earlier, I believe it was Evan Evans who had roped the mares legs to try and move her from public view NOT the person who took the photo!!! So he was fully aware that she was dead................
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Post by sparrow on May 29, 2011 21:44:59 GMT
jennid - apologies, I have re-read your post you did not say your mother took the photo. I obviously wasn't concentrating enough. I must have assumed that as your mother was in possession of the photo, took action and got attacked that she took the photo.
It is a great shame that there are not more people, like your mother, who are prepared to stick their necks out.
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
Posts: 10,046
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Post by kayjayem on May 29, 2011 22:07:22 GMT
Sparrow - my mother did not take the photo, but was there at the time it was taken just before calling the RSPCA and the Vet. Highhill - it can be proved that the mare was E Ll E's. The rope was tied around the mares legs to try and drag it out of public view. It was there days after the visit. The owner failed miserably, and as you state leaving corpses of animals on land is a prosecutable offence. No. you don't try and drag the carcase anywhere. YOU call the authorities. They move the carcase. End of story. Out of politeness, you also call the owner, if you are able to do so - but you do NOT faff about with ropes etc. Highiill - seemingly we are being pulled into this together!! At least we farm sheep and we farm them well!! CMN I'm a bit lost with this as to who "YOU" and "the authorities" are Surely responsibility for this mare lies soley with the owner who should be monitoring all his stock at least once daily. It should not be down to onlookers to notify "authorities", whoever they may be, and out of politeness call the owner. Why should any authorities take over the responsibility for removal of the carcass when there is a known owner? As said before the owner failed miserably if it was left there for days and he should have been prosecuted.
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Post by colourful on May 29, 2011 22:09:45 GMT
I am just catching up on this.
Can you please stop arguing amongst yourselves, save your time, energy and reserves for when its needed - for ponies.
Otherwise it looks childish, churlish and not very pleasant to others that are no doubt reading it.
We will not continue to be taken seriously until - we put the ponies first.!
And if you want to publicly hang me out to dry, feel free because some comments on this thread smack of " smart arse" and " me, me me" - please DO NOT FORGET THIS A WELFARE ISSUE NOT A COMPETITION.
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supes
Full Member
Posts: 328
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Post by supes on May 29, 2011 22:58:46 GMT
I am just catching up on this. Can you please stop arguing amongst yourselves, save your time, energy and reserves for when its needed - for ponies. Otherwise it looks childish, churlish and not very pleasant to others that are no doubt reading it. We will not continue to be taken seriously until - we put the ponies first.! And if you want to publicly hang me out to dry, feel free because some comments on this thread smack of " smart arse" and " me, me me" - please DO NOT FORGET THIS A WELFARE ISSUE NOT A COMPETITION. I totally agree with you...some people are out to point score and are picking holes in others postings just for the sake of it on certain issues when the facts have already been posted ...perhaps not on this Forum, but on others, and there is no point banging on and on about the same thing just because you aren`t getting the answer you want!
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supes
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Posts: 328
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Post by supes on May 29, 2011 23:02:45 GMT
Sparrow - my mother did not take the photo, but was there at the time it was taken just before calling the RSPCA and the Vet. Highhill - it can be proved that the mare was E Ll E's. The rope was tied around the mares legs to try and drag it out of public view. It was there days after the visit. The owner failed miserably, and as you state leaving corpses of animals on land is a prosecutable offence. No. you don't try and drag the carcase anywhere. YOU call the authorities. They move the carcase. End of story. Out of politeness, you also call the owner, if you are able to do so - but you do NOT faff about with ropes etc. shsstablemanager, you have got the totally WRONG end of the stick here...the pony already had the ropes tied to her legs by the owner (Evan Lloyd Evans) when she was found by the person/persons who took the photo` so he was already aware of the mares situation and did nothing about it! I don`t know why you have to be so aggressive to everyone?
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 30, 2011 5:43:42 GMT
No. you don't try and drag the carcase anywhere. YOU call the authorities. They move the carcase. End of story. Out of politeness, you also call the owner, if you are able to do so - but you do NOT faff about with ropes etc. Highiill - seemingly we are being pulled into this together!! At least we farm sheep and we farm them well!! CMN I'm a bit lost with this as to who "YOU" and "the authorities" are Surely responsibility for this mare lies soley with the owner who should be monitoring all his stock at least once daily. It should not be down to onlookers to notify "authorities", whoever they may be, and out of politeness call the owner. Why should any authorities take over the responsibility for removal of the carcass when there is a known owner? As said before the owner failed miserably if it was left there for days and he should have been prosecuted. Early one morning a couple of weeks ago I drove past a poor deer which had been the victim of a hit and run - it was sitting up (front end) but it's entire back end was smashed and lacerated, from it's tail down both hind legs. I had a 12yo girl in the car with me and a sheep trailer on the back, so I couldn't easily go back. I called the police immediately (999) and when they phoned back, it was agreed that the best cause of action was to call the local 'fallen stock' guy, in our neck of the woods it's a chap unfortunately named 'P ussy' Bell. I simply could not have left it there and driven past without doing something humane about it. That's what I mean. Soupes - Please - I'm not being aggressive. I'm just humbly suggesting that (in the manner of the Sunwillow mare and foal, undeniably his at an auction in his name) that it's best to have proof that the deceased animal lying on an unidentified bit of grass was indeed the property of the accused - and that the accused was actually witnessed tying bits of thin rope to her hindlegs. Speculation and gossip go hand in hand. Naturally I have NO sympathy for the accused and his family over the state of the animals at auction. Not simply I, but a court, if it came to it, would need proof of the above. Even street Dog wardens have to see/witness the dog actually doing the poo and the owner fail to pick it up, for prosecution to be effected. The mare on the grass incident could without doubt put him/members of the family in court and raise serious prosecution, IF it can be proved. Now can you see where I'm coming from? I hope so. I'm not fighting his corner, God forbid. Just hoping to find the proof to nail him. Modified to add - like many folk, I don't 'do' "other forums".
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